Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

[guanophore]

"guanophore:

However, the origin of Catholicism is not “study” but the revelation of God. The Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ, built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. It exists as a result of God’s revelation of Himself in Christ to humanity, not as the result of “study”.

hi guanaphore

hmmmm…isnt the bible considered to be the word of god?..if that is the case, wouldnt study of his word bring about a revelation from god?( i’m non-christian btw )…i was raised sda and we studied the apostles and prophets also…we just saw them through the skewed sda lense…i guess my larger point would be that christians can argue about prot/cath forever, but if there is a god, i dont think he’s that much of a hair-splitter…cordially…frederick

Yes, the Bible is the Word of God, and yes, God does reveal Himself through His Word. Study of it can open oneself to the revelation of God.

However, everything we study is influenced our perceptions, and education (or lack of it). Christ, however, the living Word of God, has in His presence complete Truth, not skewed by our meagre understanding.

 

[look3467]

**guanophore

God allows, why?

Did God not place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden?

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was the culprit in humanity becoming lost?

Had Eve**** not**** partaken of that tree, there would be no death?

Could we say then that knowledge killed?

And that God would allow it to be there would be a sort of a stumbling block to Eve?

The reason for two opposing sides of things is offering a choice?

Protestantism, is a matter of choice based on the parameters set fourth in the bible.

What are those parameters?

That the old was crucified and the new is given as a gift.

What falls in between those two, is the practice.

Practice your new gift via the Catholic church or in Protestantism.

The point, that the gift is accepted with great appreciation, such that it is a life changing experience.

Blessing’s AJ
**

 

[jean8]

No, I think it was to teach us to love one another.
1Jn.4:19 "We love because he first loved us. 20. If anyone says, "I love God yet hates his brother, he is a liar, for anyone who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen . 21. “And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.”

We attend different churches, but we worship the same Lord and Savior.
You have now come to the knowledge of truth in his Holy word. See Heb.10:26

I love you in the Lord,
jean

 

[jean8]

I thought your point was that she called Protestants “heresies”, or something to that effect?

It is not right to charge the children of the Reformers with heresy, because in order to be a heretic, one must have been taught the truth, then willfully chosen to depart from it. This term can rightfully be applied to the orignal reformers and their disciples, but not to modern day Protestants. Your emotional reaction alone makes it clear that you do not believe this term should be applied to you, or to Protestants in general.

It seems that you have some important things to learn about your family history as a Christian. Members of CAF are not here to be rude to you, or to hurt your feelings. We are here to provide Catholic Answers. The answers that Catholics have given to the original post in this thread, for the most part, represent Catholic teaching. All Protestant denominations have departed from the doctrine taught by the Apostles to a greater or lesser degree.

We aren’t as far apart as you think.
Do you believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for you and me? I do.
Do you believe mortals are sinners, including Catholics and non-catholics? I do.
Which doctrines are you referring to?
Does a person need a PhD to enter heaven? No, God loves everyone. He shows no favoritism. Rom.2:11
Does God the Father forgive our sins when we confess them with a sincere heart? Yes, He does.

I love in the Lord,
jean

 

[jean8]

I thought your point was that she called Protestants “heresies”, or something to that effect?

It is not right to charge the children of the Reformers with heresy, because in order to be a heretic, one must have been taught the truth, then willfully chosen to depart from it. This term can rightfully be applied to the orignal reformers and their disciples, but not to modern day Protestants. Your emotional reaction alone makes it clear that you do not believe this term should be applied to you, or to Protestants in general.

It seems that you have some important things to learn about your family history as a Christian. Members of CAF are not here to be rude to you, or to hurt your feelings. We are here to provide Catholic Answers. The answers that Catholics have given to the original post in this thread, for the most part, represent Catholic teaching. All Protestant denominations have departed from the doctrine taught by the Apostles to a greater or lesser degree.

quan,
What is CAF? oh, catholic answers, forums?
I like signing in . Do you know why, before I judge other christians I feel I should learn about what they are being taught in the ‘Church’ “Judge” is really a wrong word for me to use. Sorry. I do not judge anyone’s salvation. That is to bring God down to my level.
God is majestic and unreachable, my puny thoughts are dust. I keep trying to know all that he is ready to reveal to me. I am thankful for each new ism he tells me when I read his word…
We may not agree on everything, but the reasons are many. I don’t dislike you because you attend a different church. “Whoever loves God must also love his brother.”

jean

 

[jmcrae]

hi guanaphore

hmmmm…isnt the bible considered to be the word of god?..if that is the case, wouldnt study of his word bring about a revelation from god?( i’m non-christian btw )…i was raised sda and we studied the apostles and prophets also…we just saw them through the skewed sda lense…i guess my larger point would be that christians can argue about prot/cath forever, but if there is a god, i dont think he’s that much of a hair-splitter…cordially…frederick

The Bible didn’t simply fall out of the sky one day. Nor did people simply “discover” the Bible and then each come up with their own interpretations of it, and start up all the different Christian denominations.

Rather, the Bible was put together by several Bishops’ Councils in the Catholic Church. The canon of the Bible (the list of books that belong in it) was given first by Pope Damasus in 387 AD as a proposal to the Church to study, and then again (after the Bishops took time to study the whole thing and see whether it was true or not) in 405 AD by Pope Innocent I as an infallible proclamation to the whole Church.

After that, St. Jerome and his assistants went about the work of gathering up all of those books from every library in the world, translating them all into Latin (which was the common language of the people at that time), putting them all into one larger “book of books” (biblio, or Bible) and then having it copied so that every Church in union with the Pope could have one.

It was not until the early 1500s AD that Protestantism began to exist, and it was not so much about “discovering the Bible” because they all had Bibles by that time - it was more about political stuff that was happening in the Church - who had power, and who thought they should have power (ie: the German Princes, King Henry VIII, etc.), and people coming up with novel ideas and trying to defend them in Scripture, etc.

 

[wisdomseeker]

No, I think it was to teach us to love one another.
1Jn.4:19 "We love because he first loved us. 20. If anyone says, "I love God yet hates his brother, he is a liar, for anyone who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen . 21. “And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.”

We attend different churches, but we worship the same Lord and Savior.
You have now come to the knowledge of truth in his Holy word. See Heb.10:26

I love you in the Lord,
jean

and who are our brothers and sisters, but those who believe in the Truth. those who are in the Church that teaches the Truth. when Jesus said love each other, He said this to the Apostles. that they may love one another. although we are to love our enemies, they are not called our brothers. who are the enemies but those who reject the True teachings of Jesus in His Church.

:byzsoc::angel1:

 

[jargon631]

The Bible didn’t simply fall out of the sky one day. Nor did people simply “discover” the Bible and then each come up with their own interpretations of it, and start up all the different Christian denominations.

Rather, the Bible was put together by several Bishops’ Councils in the Catholic Church. The canon of the Bible (the list of books that belong in it) was given first by Pope Damasus in 387 AD as a proposal to the Church to study, and then again (after the Bishops took time to study the whole thing and see whether it was true or not) in 405 AD by Pope Innocent I as an infallible proclamation to the whole Church.

After that, St. Jerome and his assistants went about the work of gathering up all of those books from every library in the world, translating them all into Latin (which was the common language of the people at that time), putting them all into one larger “book of books” (biblio, or Bible) and then having it copied so that every Church in union with the Pope could have one.

It was not until the early 1500s AD that Protestantism began to exist, and it was not so much about “discovering the Bible” because they all had Bibles by that time - it was more about political stuff that was happening in the Church - who had power, and who thought they should have power (ie: the German Princes, King Henry VIII, etc.), and people coming up with novel ideas and trying to defend them in Scripture, etc.

actually…it was guttenbergs invention(movable type) that alowed bibles into the hands of many more people, and eliminated the sole interpretation of the priests…this led to a wider understanding of the bible and less of a need\desire for the elaborate rituals of the RC…it was LESS about political things and more about martin luther and other reformers being disgusted with things like the sale of indulgances and a grossly corrupt preisthood that propelled the reformation forward…in fact, martin luther, at the diet of worms in 1521, stated that he would not recant unless scriptural study guided him in that direction…in light of that, i beg to differ…it was ***very much ***about discovering “the word of god” through study…smilingly…frederick

 

[jargon631]

Yes, the Bible is the Word of God, and yes, God does reveal Himself through His Word. Study of it can open oneself to the revelation of God.

However, everything we study is influenced our perceptions, and education (or lack of it). Christ, however, the living Word of God, has in His presence complete Truth, not skewed by our meagre understanding.

hi guanaphore

i agree that everything we percieve is filtered through our own lenses of understanding…but i dont believe that the “word of god” is set up to be not understood by the common man…such thinking( no offence intended or meant, good sirruh)tends to seperate and distance man from a “personal relationship with god”…doesnt it?..frederick

 

[jmcrae]

actually…it was guttenbergs invention(movable type) that alowed bibles into the hands of many more people, and eliminated the sole interpretation of the preists…this led to a wider understanding of the bible and less of a need\desire for the elaborate rituals of the RC…it was LESS about political things and more about martin luther and other reformers being disgusted with things like the sale of indulgances and a grossly corrupt preisthood that propelled the reformation forward…in fact, martin luther, at the diet of worms in 1521, stated that he would not recant unless scriptural study guided him in that direction…in light of that, i beg to differ…it was ***very much ***about discovering “the word of god” through study…smilingly…frederick

Passages of Scripture were read out at every Mass, on weekdays, Saturdays, and Sundays - the people knew their Bible. They also had Biblical art in their churches - statues, stained glass windows, various pageants and skits that people put on in the streets - in fact, I would bet you that the illiterate medieval man had a greater knowledge of the Scriptures than your average modern-day grade 12 graduate.

Gutenberg was a Catholic by the way.

 

[ron77nyc]

Passages of Scripture were read out at every Mass, on weekdays, Saturdays, and Sundays - the people knew their Bible. They also had Biblical art in their churches - statues, stained glass windows, various pageants and skits that people put on in the streets - in fact, I would bet you that the illiterate medieval man had a greater knowledge of the Scriptures than your average modern-day grade 12 graduate.

Gutenberg was a Catholic by the way.

Passages of scripture were read at every mass but never explained. The priest would always talk about something else when it was time to explain the readings. Catholics knew nothing at all about the bible. The only reason it is being taught today is because people were leaving the Catholic Church to learn the bible from Protestants.

 

[jmcrae]

Passages of scripture were read at every mass but never explained. The priest would always talk about something else when it was time to explain the readings. Catholics knew nothing at all about the bible. The only reason it is being taught today is because people were leaving the Catholic Church to learn the bible from Protestants.

When I study the history of art, what I see is ordinary lay people making paintings, carving sculptures, and putting together little skits that show a much stronger understanding of the Scriptures back then, than what we have today. These ordinary craftsmen knew their Bible extremely well, even before there was such a thing as a printing press.

Michelangelo, for example, didn’t have access to a printed Bible - everything he knew of the Scriptures, he heard with his ears - and yet, he was able to compose and paint the Sistine Chapel, which shows the Bible story of salvation all the way from the Creation to the Judgement Day, and including a great many depictions of Bible stories. But how could he have done that, with no Bible to take home and read, if he was not hearing it read out and explained on a regular basis, like, say, at Mass?

 

[jargon631]

Passages of Scripture were read out at every Mass, on weekdays, Saturdays, and Sundays - the people knew their Bible. They also had Biblical art in their churches - statues, stained glass windows, various pageants and skits that people put on in the streets -

my friend…skits, art, pageants and statues do not remotely equate with the individual, in-depth study of a subject… passages of scripture, selected by the church hierarchy, being read to the illiterate masses who were both required to attend and excoriated if they were not, are not anywhere in the neighborhood of the people knowing their bible…their not even in the same time zone…lol

in fact, I would bet you that the illiterate medieval man had a greater knowledge of the Scriptures than your average modern-day grade 12 graduate.

ummm…you would have to show me some comparative documentation for that statement, mano…

Gutenberg was a Catholic by the way.

well…yes…if you werent a pagan or a muslim, you were a catholic…that is, until the protestant reformation……fd

 

[ron77nyc]

When I study the history of art, what I see is ordinary lay people making paintings, carving sculptures, and putting together little skits that show a much stronger understanding of the Scriptures back then, than what we have today. These ordinary craftsmen knew their Bible extremely well, even before there was such a thing as a printing press.

Michelangelo, for example, didn’t have access to a printed Bible - everything he knew of the Scriptures, he heard with his ears - and yet, he was able to compose and paint the Sistine Chapel, which shows the Bible story of salvation all the way from the Creation to the Judgement Day, and including a great many depictions of Bible stories. But how could he have done that, with no Bible to take home and read, if he was not hearing it read out and explained on a regular basis, like, say, at Mass?

We don’t know how Michelangelo came to know what he knew. Maybe it was at mass. Maybe he was able to read. That doesn’t mean that everyone in his day knew what he knew. Most Catholic I know do not know the bible and have no desire to know it. This article is about a survey in Italy:novaresearch.eu/index.php/news_events/3/4

“In the beginning was the Word – but the Italians don’t read it” said La Stampa as a response to a recent survey done by Eurisko for the Catholic Biblical Federation. The survey showed that only 14% of Italians questioned were able to answer questions about the Bible correctly. Only 27% had read a passage from the Bible in the past year (compared with 75% in the USA) and only a small minority knew whether or not the Gospels were part of the Bible. Even first class honours students of Philosophy confused Paul with Moses and thought that Jesus wrote Genesis. Yet 88% of Italians describe themselves as Roman Catholics, three quarters claimed they kept a Bible at home, 79% felt their lives were “protected by God” although only 32% described themselves as “regular churchgoers”, compared with 45% in the US and 55% in Poland. However, 6 out of 10 Italians thought the Bible should be taught at schools.

Monsignor Vincenzo Paglia, Bishop of Terni and head of the Catholic Biblical Federation in Italy, said the survey “offers a challenge to which we must respond”. Monsignor Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the pontifical Council for Culture would have liked to see the Vatican included in the survey where “it might well have produced some surprising results”.
The XII Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops, was held from 5th-26th October 2008 and, presided over by Pope Benedict XVI, took as its theme “The Word of God in the Life and Mission of the Church”. On the evening of Sunday the 6th October, Pope Benedict kicked off a Bible-reading marathon that lasted for seven days and needed 1,200 people to complete the task. Orthodox and Evangelical church leaders also participated in the reading that finished with the Book of Revelation a week later. The Pope may have read the first verses from Genesis, Andrea Bocelli may have sung excerpts, but it remains to be seen whether the Italian Roman Catholic public begin reading the Bible in more earnest.

According to the Venetian philosopher Massimo Cacciari, the Roman Catholic Church is to blame for this lack of biblical knowledge as it has kept a monopoly on the teaching of the Bible and imposes Episcopal authorisation upon those who teach religious education. So despite the fact that the 40 years following Vatican II have seen a steady increase in the number of homes possessing a Bible and the onset of the Internet age and multimedia communication, for many Italians the Bible remains a closed, mysterious book.

Source: La Stampa online, TimesOnline, ADNKronos international

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Copyright © 2009 NOVA. All rights reserved.
Website designed by Real Point Design

 

[jargon631]

When I study the history of art, what I see is ordinary lay people making paintings, carving sculptures, and putting together little skits that show a much stronger understanding of the Scriptures back then, than what we have today. These ordinary craftsmen knew their Bible extremely well, even before there was such a thing as a printing press.

Michelangelo, for example, didn’t have access to a printed Bible - everything he knew of the Scriptures, he heard with his ears - and yet, he was able to compose and paint the Sistine Chapel, which shows the Bible story of salvation all the way from the Creation to the Judgement Day, and including a great many depictions of Bible stories. But how could he have done that, with no Bible to take home and read, if he was not hearing it read out and explained on a regular basis, like, say, at Mass?

hmmm…dont you think that it was in the best interests of the church to ensure that michelangelo got a clear understanding as to the representation that the rc desired?..i dont think that the average peasent recieved the samre consideration…frederick

 

[jargon631]

Hi jargon, Can I ask you, do you believe in Jesus, and the diety of Jesus? You do believe in God a supreme being, is that it? Love of Christ Nancy

well, no…no i dont…i am a deist, so some of what i believe can be adressed by understanding the nature of deism…that having been said, i must further state that i have absolutely no problem with other peoples belief in christianity…my experiences, however, led me to eschew ALL organised religion…i dont advocate my beliefs for others, though…that would be against my, er, “religion”…lol…frederick

 

[jmcrae]

We don’t know how Michelangelo came to know what he knew. Maybe it was at mass. Maybe he was able to read.

He was certainly able to read - that’s not the issue. The issue is, the printing press had not yet been invented, and there were no Bibles being sold in the local bookstore for him to read - indeed, there were no such places as bookstores, yet.

“In the beginning was the Word – but the Italians don’t read it” said La Stampa as a response to a recent survey done by Eurisko for the Catholic Biblical Federation.

My point exactly. These are modern-day people who have easy access to buy inexpensive Bibles at any local bookstore, or even to borrow one from their parish library. So, the availability of inexpensive and even free Bibles does not, in and of itself, cause people to read and know their Bible. I am betting that if a survey were done with the same people on their attendance at Mass, that the same people who don’t know anything about the Bible (even though they could easily buy one and read it any time they want to) also don’t attend Mass very regularly, nor participate actively in parish life.

 

[distracted]

Interesting, seeing as how, in Christianity, the concept of “heresy” is only known as those practices which are in conflict with The Catholic Church. Without the Catholic Church, there is no such thing as “heresy”, because you have to have a set standard of orthodoxy from which to deviate, in order for heresy to exist. That standard has always been Catholicism. Those heresies that “crept in” to the Church were denounced and removed from Catholic orthodoxy so that Truth could persist without error.

and it can creep on all fours back OUT also…

there sure are a lot of unorthodox priests these days…

but with me around, the Church will be OK…:knight2:.

 

[distracted]

No, I think it was to teach us to love one another.
1Jn.4:19 "We love because he first loved us. 20. If anyone says, "I love God yet hates his brother, he is a liar, for anyone who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen . 21. “And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.”

We attend different churches, but we worship the same Lord and Savior.
You have now come to the knowledge of truth in his Holy word. See Heb.10:26

I love you in the Lord,
jean

i just thought it was funny… didn’t mean to imply that i equate Protestantism with satan…

although in the beginning yrs of the “reformation” there was a lot of satanic stuff going on…

and there always is… now we have abortion… (legalized)… more people serve satan than serve Christ, from my viewpoint… and Jesus said “few [find] the narrow way…”

anyway, i’ve also observed that some non-Catholics are more Catholic than Cathoics… which, nowadays (Nancy Pelosi, Biden, etc…“Catholics” voting for BHO ) might not be saying much…

 

[ron77nyc]

My point exactly. These are modern-day people who have easy access to buy inexpensive Bibles at any local bookstore, or even to borrow one from their parish library. So, the availability of inexpensive and even free Bibles does not, in and of itself, cause people to read and know their Bible. I am betting that if a survey were done with the same people on their attendance at Mass, that the same people who don’t know anything about the Bible (even though they could easily buy one and read it any time they want to) also don’t attend Mass very regularly, nor participate actively in parish life.

Whether or not they participate actively is not the issue. Those people were baptized and educated in the Catholic Church but never knew about salvation by faith in the resurrected Jesus. (I did not say faith alone.) The early Church was separated from all other religions because of the message of the gospel. As Catholicism grew and evolved the gospel message took the back seat. It became a part of Catholicism but not the most important element. The Protestant Reformation took it back to the forefront.