Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God?

[simpleas]

Yes, really. A good confession restores our relationship with God. A good confession also taps into God’s grace to avoid returning to the sin. I have personal experience that some things do disappear, though not immediately.

I didn’t explain myself as usual

I’d agree that a person who finally realises that they are living in a way that is sinful to others and themself, makes a confession, feels free from the pain and guilt, then goes on to live free from the particular sin does happen to some people.

People can go for years and never get over the attachment to whatever addiction they are trapped in, but to me these people are not K&W rejecting God, they are working through the problem that holds them back from the freedom we all seek.

 

[davidv]

I didn’t explain myself as usual

I’d agree that a person who finally realises that they are living in a way that is sinful to others and themself, makes a confession, feels free from the pain and guilt, then goes on to live free from the particular sin does happen to some people.

People can go for years and never get over the attachment to whatever addiction they are trapped in, but to me these people are not K&W rejecting God, they are working through the problem that holds them back from the freedom we all seek.

Then I believe you are using a very different definition of what K&W is, compared to what the Church uses in defining what sin is.

 

[OneSheep]

Are you saying that anybody who thinks he is separated from God is delusional?

In a friendly way, yes, that is what I am saying. On the other hand, perhaps the delusion is mine. Many people like to point at others thinking that the other is separated from God. To me, the separation is impossible because we are nothing without God.

You say, “No one is separated from God”. What is your source for this assertion?

Romans 8:38-39

New International Version (NIV)

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And, since Jesus is our God, and God loves everyone, and Jesus loves everyone, the statement, to me, is all-inclusive.

This is Abba I know through relationship. It’s not such a “doctrinal thing”. So, if you want to contest it, I have no retort other than that. To me, it is something to be found within. And when you look at the writing I just presented, it, too, is not presented as doctinal, but opinion! “I am convinced…”

I too, am convinced.

When an atheist has found love within, and love in all, he has found God. He may resent the assertion, but that has to do with the many resentments he has toward theism and theists. All understandable, but in order to find the all-inclusive Love in the other in the first place, he will have to forgive all on Earth he resents. Once he has done this, attributing all to God is not a big burden, but an option. This is a very general observation/conclusion, more of a bit of rambling than having universal application. Everyone is different, of course.

 

[simpleas]

Then I believe you are using a very different definition of what K&W is, compared to what the Church uses in defining what sin is.

I don’t see how? The person knows they have sinned, go to confess and receive forgiveness, but can still struggle with the sin. To me they aren’t rejecting God, or else they wouldn’t even bother to see the sin and ask for the grace to refain from it??

 

[davidv]

I don’t see how? The person knows they have sinned, go to confess and receive forgiveness, but can still struggle with the sin. To me they aren’t rejecting God, or else they wouldn’t even bother to see the sin and ask for the grace to refain from it??

What is sin, if it is not the rejection of God? See the story of the prodigal son. The son rejects the father, then later regrets and returns. Just because he repents does not mean he didn’t reject the father.

 

[simpleas]

What is sin, if it is not the rejection of God? See the story of the prodigal son. The son rejects the father, then later regrets and returns. Just because he repents does not mean he didn’t reject the father.

I asked this about the prodigal son at the beginning of the month (Please see link)

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=886403

I always saw the story as an example of God always forgiving no matter what we have done, and for us to welcome back anyone and not be hostile towards them. But I had the thought that,
the son doesn’t seem to acknowledge his sin until he is suffering the loss of wealth. The father still welcomes his son back regardless.

 

[davidv]

I asked this about the prodigal son at the beginning of the month (Please see link)

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=886403

I always saw the story as an example of God always forgiving no matter what we have done, and for us to welcome back anyone and not be hostile towards them. But I had the thought that,
the son doesn’t seem to acknowledge his sin until he is suffering the loss of wealth. The father still welcomes his son back regardless.

This does not address my point.

Did the prodigal K&W leave his father? I say he clearly did. With his request for his inherentance, he was effectively saying he wished his father were dead.

 

[chefmomster2]

OS: Are you saying that you knew “before and after” but not at the moment of the decision? Did the “knowing” of God’s good sort of disappear, fall by the wayside, was overcome by “my will is more important right now”?

Man: I meant that I knew throughout. It wasn’t a case of forgetting or putting aside.

 

[simpleas]

This does not address my point.

Did the prodigal K&W leave his father? I say he clearly did. With his request for his inherentance, he was effectively saying he wished his father were dead.

He went off to live his life the way he wanted to with the inherentance that should have only come to him after his father death, but he was impatient and wanted his share of the money now. The father did not refuse, he gave it in love, and allowed the son to go off and spend it.
So doesn’t this suggest that God allows us to “go off” in love to seek what we think is right for us?

The son seems to be wanting to take control of his life and by having the money to do it he could, but he did it for all the wrong reasons, and was in the end left with nothing, but the love and forgiveness of his father. I don’t know if the son wished his father was dead, I never thought of it that way.

 

[chefmomster2]

He went off to live his life the way he wanted to with the inherentance that should have only come to him after his father death, but he was impatient and wanted his share of the money now. The father did not refuse, he gave it in love, and allowed the son to go off and spend it.
So doesn’t this suggest that God allows us to “go off” in love to seek what we think is right for us?

The son seems to be wanting to take control of his life and by having the money to do it he could, but he did it for all the wrong reasons, and was in the end left with nothing, but the love and forgiveness of his father. I don’t know if the son wished his father was dead, I never thought of it that way.

God does allow us to go off just like the prodigal son. He accepts our choices.

But, remember, it is the son who returns to the Father. The Father is ready and waiting at all times, but he does not go in search of him. The relationship has been broken by the son. This is the rejection. The son must be the one to ask humbly and with contrition to renew the relationship. He must express that He wishes God to be with Him once again. Once he does, the Father runs to him, takes him in his arms, and welcomes Him with love.

This is precisely what happens with mortal sin. We reject, we go off on our own, we hopefully(?) see our error in time, we return, we beg forgiveness in humility, and we are accepted back as a full member.

 

[OneSheep]

Sorry for the delay, chefmom. I did have a nice weekend. Hope yours was too! It is my birthday soon, and all 3 of my kids are home today (one leaves tonight)! So, we are sort-of celebrating my birthday today.

When he decided that his good was better than God’s Good, he just stopped resisting.

OneSheep:Okay, he decided that his good was better than God’s good.

OneSheep: (to the man) You believed at the moment that God’s will was less important than your own “my will above God’s”. But is this the truth, that God’s will is less important than your own?

Of course not! I knew that all along. Before and after!

OneSheep: I’m confused now. On the one hand you said “I knew that all along” that God’s will is more important than your own, but on the other hand you said that you decided “your good was better than God’s good” at the moment you sinned.

Are you saying that you knew “before and after” but not at the moment of the decision? Did the “knowing” of God’s good sort of disappear, fall by the wayside, was overcome by “my will is more important right now”?

Man: I meant that I knew throughout. It wasn’t a case of forgetting or putting aside.

OneSheep: So, you knew throughout that God’s good was more important than your own, but you decided that your good was better than God’s.

Are you saying that you simultaneously thought God’s good was more important than your own, but that you decided that your good was better than God’s? Hmmm.

It is clear to me that you had the two thoughts in your mind, but if the thoughts were simultaneous, there would be inaction. You decided that your good was better than God’s at the period of adultery, just as you stated.

You are saying that the “knowing” did not disappear or fall by the wayside, so what happened to “God’s good is more important than my own?” Where did it go?

Man:

 

[chefmomster2]

OneSheep: Are you saying that you simultaneously thought God’s good was more important than your own, but that you decided that your good was better than God’s? Hmmm.

You are saying that the “knowing” did not disappear or fall by the wayside, so what happened to “God’s good is more important than my own?” Where did it go?

Man: I can only explain it by saying that what you describe here- knowing God’s good is best and still deciding that I want my own good- is at the very heart of sin. I don’t want to submit to God. I let my pride lead me to reject God’s will.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

I guess you haven’t come across the sort of person who says “I know what’s right, but I’m not gonna do it because I’m a rebel and I do what I want!”

There are plenty.

I take issue with Socrates’ idea that people always do what they think is good.

There are people like that. This is a very petty comparison. The same reason people select to eat foods that are bad for them. There are rich, educated people who are just too stubborn to change their diet, even if they know it is bad for them. Is it addiction? Maybe. Maybe doing the wrong is simply more appealing. The bible states you never know what it is in people’s hearts. Do not assume everyone has a good or kind heart. Some people choose to be wicked. They are not misguided. They may even know the bible very well. They just do not want to follow it. I do not think this is a case for most people. From my experience, I think some people are deliberately mean and they do not care.

 

[OneSheep]

Man: I can only explain it by saying that what you describe here- knowing God’s good is best and still deciding that I want my own good- is at the very heart of sin. I don’t want to submit to God. I let my pride lead me to reject God’s will.

OneSheep: Okay, you not only decided that you wanted your own good, you acted on your decision, you rejected God’s will. Your truth, for the moment, was that your good was better than God’s, if you are a behavior-always-follows-reason individual. So, if you are a behavior-always-follows-reason individual, then your reason was, as you stated previously, an untruth, obviously flawed. And in that case, you had in your head that what you were doing was not wrong, what was wrong was the “truth” you were following. Adam and Eve had the same problem, remember? They were following an untruth when they doubted God. They were saying “God was joshing us! This fruit looks good!”.

So, either you were:

1. “reasonably” following an untruth, or
2. you are not a behavior-always-follows-reason individual or
3. another possibility, please explain. Is it possible that you were temporarily blinded?

Which is the case?

Man: (?)

Chefmom, do you observe what I observe? The man keeps bringing up “pride”. The man is feeling guilty, he is self-condemning, his conscience is working the way it is supposed to work. In my observation, self-condemnation blocks empathy toward the self. (And may the reader note, does your own conscience say “I am not to have empathy toward myself! I have sinned! I deserve the worst!”? If your conscience says this as you put yourself in the man’s shoes, you have a healthy conscience.)

However, what the “blocking” also does is inhibit us from actually entering into the moment and figuring out what happened. We think of our sin, our conscience says “bad!”, punishes us with a shot of guilt, and we just don’t go there. Do you see how difficult it is for the man to come up with a rational explanation? This is new territory for him.

 

[OneSheep]

…
From my experience, I think some people are deliberately mean and they do not care.

This too, is my experience. However, do they ever knowingly and willingly reject God? That is the question. The person with anger, the person ignorant of the value of the human, the person blinded by the appetites, the person blinded by desire to punish, these are not cognizant of the love and wonder of God in the other. They do not know what they are doing.

 

[davidv]

This too, is my experience. However, do they ever knowingly and willingly reject God? That is the question.

If no one ever does, what is the meaning the Church’s teaching on sin and salvation? If we don’t knowingly and willingly reject God, what is sin? If there is no sin, why did Jesus become man, suffer, die and rise to life?

The person with anger, the person ignorant of the value of the human, the person blinded by the appetites, the person blinded by desire to punish, these are not cognizant of the love and wonder of God in the other. They do not know what they are doing.

Is everyone in these states, all of the time?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . The person with anger, the person ignorant of the value of the human, the person blinded by the appetites, the person blinded by desire to punish, these are not cognizant of the love and wonder of God in the other. They do not know what they are doing.

:twocents:

The misery we cause others, ourselves actually is no less because of our ignorance, negligence and lack of caring.
I would say we are aware of the love and wonder of the cross, but want no part of it.
We are not talking about a court of law. There will be no defence, no excuses or explanations necessary - just the harsh reality of one’s actions in the face of love.
If one is trying to make it less painful excusing the behaviour of others towards oneself, it helps soften the blow and ease into forgiveness, to view such things through rose-cloured glasses.
When it comes to oneself, better to lose the eye than have the whole body perish.

 

[simpleas]

God does allow us to go off just like the prodigal son. He accepts our choices.

But, remember, it is the son who returns to the Father. The Father is ready and waiting at all times, but he does not go in search of him. The relationship has been broken by the son. This is the rejection. The son must be the one to ask humbly and with contrition to renew the relationship. He must express that He wishes God to be with Him once again. Once he does, the Father runs to him, takes him in his arms, and welcomes Him with love.

This is precisely what happens with mortal sin. We reject, we go off on our own, we hopefully(?) see our error in time, we return, we beg forgiveness in humility, and we are accepted back as a full member.

The son goes off, does all what he likes, ends up with nothing, knows his fathers servants get more food than he can, so he decides he was in fact wrong, crawls back to his father and says sorry. The father forgives him, welcomes him back, all live happily ever after.
Some how life doesn’t seem to work like that though does it?

 

[TheWiseMan]

I think ii has something to do with the fact that there are some doubts on the minds of some people that, if the idea of having eternal life is actually true. The idea of whether or not God has power over all things.

 

[Aloysium]

I think ii has something to do with the fact that there are some doubts on the minds of some people that, if the idea of having eternal life is actually true. The idea of whether or not God has power over all things.

I think you are on to something.

Some naked guy dying on the cross, alone, abandoned and in pain - its convenient to ignore one’s complicity.
On the other hand, no one will reject someone who can exert infinite power.

That these two Persons are One and that one’s action reverberate in eternity are realities that many are wishing were not true.