Why does God allow Satan to Exist

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Free will is a terrifying gift isn’t it! All our loving Creator wants is for us to love him back with the same love He freely gives to us.
God knew where I would end up before he created me.

God knows where you will end up before he created you.

That’s what’s terrifying to me, God knowing the specific children he creates will spend eternity in hell, yet he chooses to create them anyway.
 
God knew where I would end up before he created me.

God knows where you will end up before he created you.

That’s what’s terrifying to me, God knowing the specific children he creates will spend eternity in hell, yet he chooses to create them anyway.
Absolutely true in the Christian model.
 
God knew where I would end up before he created me.

God knows where you will end up before he created you.

That’s what’s terrifying to me, God knowing the specific children he creates will spend eternity in hell, yet he chooses to create them anyway.
Rather, i think God lets humans procreate, whenever a child is conceived, God adds an immortal soul to that heap of cells which will develop in the womb and will come out nine months later. Since time is a creation of God, he has known for ever that my parents were going to have me, but i don’t believe he called me or willed me into existence. My parents chose to have sex, or rather my dad chose to have sex on one given day, and here I am as a result, God had no choice, given the system he decided humans were going to evolve in, but to impart the heap of cells that were the initial me with an immortal soul. God did not creat me knowing I was gonna end up eternally miserable, rather, my parents conceived me, by virtue of that conception i’ve been eternally on God’s mind, and God, witnessing my conception knew that this son of a gun (me) was gonna be deaf to his calls, resistant to his grace and finally impenitent. Do you see the nuance? That being said, it doesn’t make hell an easier pill to swallow. Annihilation would be so much better: Heaven becomes the prize, you fall short, hello oblivion and eternal “sleep”, no more “me”.
 
Abraham was called out of Ur, from among polytheists. The change was not instant… Witness ‘have no other Gods before me’. In ancient Canaan, that didn’t mean 'don’t make a God out of material goods! Golden calf, anyone?
Read Genesis from the beginning thorugh Moses. There is nothing that indidcates polyttheism. When God speaks to Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, Lot, etc, etc, etc,… it is always “the Lord” speaking–singular. I don’t see any passages where they worshipped nature, or anything else.

"Have no other Gods before me is a clear prohibition again polytheism. In our world today you I am sure you can find many “Catholics” today who put some faith in astrology, or Gaia, or Humanism, or Socialism, or Capitalism. We can’t call Catholics polytheists because of this though. .In a similar way I am sure there were always some Israelites who placed their faith in something else in moments of weakness, thus they needed the commandment. We can’t call the Isrealites polytheists though.

If you have a specific passage that show polytheism I would like to see it.
 
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987mk:
God knew where I would end up before he created me.

God knows where you will end up before he created you.

That’s what’s terrifying to me, God knowing the specific children he creates will spend eternity in hell, yet he chooses to create them anyway.
Rather, i think God lets humans procreate, whenever a child is conceived, God adds an immortal soul to that heap of cells which will develop in the womb and will come out nine months later. Since time is a creation of God, he has known for ever that my parents were going to have me, but i don’t believe he called me or willed me into existence. My parents chose to have sex, or rather my dad chose to have sex on one given day, and here I am as a result, God had no choice, given the system he decided humans were going to evolve in, but to impart the heap of cells that were the initial me with an immortal soul. God did not creat me knowing I was gonna end up eternally miserable, rather, my parents conceived me, by virtue of that conception i’ve been eternally on God’s mind, and God, witnessing my conception knew that this son of a gun (me) was gonna be deaf to his calls, resistant to his grace and finally impenitent. Do you see the nuance? That being said, it doesn’t make hell an easier pill to swallow. Annihilation would be so much better: Heaven becomes the prize, you fall short, hello oblivion and eternal “sleep”, no more “me”.
Nothing happens without God’s consent, and He could easily order the world so that any particular one of us did not come into existence.

The answer to the question of “why not annihilation” is simply that to exist is better than not to exist - even for those in hell, existence is a good thing. They separate themselves from all other goods by their free choice. But should God remove the last good that they have? They might want Him to, but we all know that what we might want and what is actually good need not be the same.

Annihilation cannot be better than anything. Recall that good is real, and evil is a twisting of good. Annihilation of the damned would not be a removal of evil - removing evil is correcting the twist, as it were, restoring a good to what it should be or improving upon it. Annihilation is removing the last vestiges of the good that remain.

Or looked at in another way, it can’t be better not to exist than to anything, even to suffer in hell, because if we don’t exist there is no “us” to apply “better to” to. Existence is the fundamental good in that way - it is good in itself, and no other good can exist without it.

The question of why those who will be damned are created anyway can be addressed similarly - it is better to exist than not to exist. God knows if we will choose to turn from Him, but even if we do choose to turn from him, our very existence is still a good thing given to us, and our turning from Him will not change that.
 
Nothing happens without God’s consent, and He could easily order the world so that any particular one of us did not come into existence.

The answer to the question of “why not annihilation” is simply that to exist is better than not to exist - even for those in hell, existence is a good thing. They separate themselves from all other goods by their free choice. But should God remove the last good that they have? They might want Him to, but we all know that what we might want and what is actually good need not be the same.

Annihilation cannot be better than anything. Recall that good is real, and evil is a twisting of good. Annihilation of the damned would not be a removal of evil - removing evil is correcting the twist, as it were, restoring a good to what it should be or improving upon it. Annihilation is removing the last vestiges of the good that remain.

Or looked at in another way, it can’t be better not to exist than to anything, even to suffer in hell, because if we don’t exist there is no “us” to apply “better to” to. Existence is the fundamental good in that way - it is good in itself, and no other good can exist without it.

The question of why those who will be damned are created anyway can be addressed similarly - it is better to exist than not to exist. God knows if we will choose to turn from Him, but even if we do choose to turn from him, our very existence is still a good thing given to us, and our turning from Him will not change that.
That’s what I hate about philosophy: it’s so detached from reality. If I run over a deer on a dirt path far from civilization, should I end its suffering with my gun or should I drive off leaving it to enjoy the incredible good of being alive? Nothing can be accomplished by sustaining the damned forever, their wills are irrevocably set against God. Both they and God know annihilation would be a good, but the satisfaction of God’s justice is what trumps that good.

A more mundane consideration: how do you quote someone’s post and someone’s reply to that post as you so brilliantly did? I’m as dull as knives can be, this isn’t my first incarnation here and I haven’t been able to figure out how it’s done. Being dumb is such a far-reaching curse, you have to be to appreciate it. Thank you.

P.S. Don’t worry, self-hatred has become a way of life.
 
God created Satan and holds him in existence, if I understand correctly. Why doesn’t God just annihilate Satan and the demons to remove that temptation? Why does he allow Satan and the other demons to exist?
When God creates, His act of creation is eternal to bring into creation and then annihilate what He creates is to contradict Himself, as if He created a situation or entity He couldn’t control, or that He made a mistake. God is infallible.

When God created He knew that whatever He created is fallible. Only God is infallible. His creation is good, but fallible. God can not create infallible creatures, for infallibility is an attribute of God alone. He is never wrong.

So to create man God had to create him fallible, or not at all, this includes those who would go to Heaven, and those who would go to Hell. He gave them free will so the choice is really theirs, not God’s. So for the greater good God created fallible man. Also He created fallible Angels with free will. Satan is allowed to test the Saints. James l: 12-13
Blessed be the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life that He promised to those who love Him. God draws good from evil. For fallible creation to exist is the greater good, then for it not to exist. When I speak of creation I speak of spiritual intelligent beings, men and angels.
 
That’s what I hate about philosophy: it’s so detached from reality. If I run over a deer on a dirt path far from civilization, should I end its suffering with my gun or should I drive off leaving it to enjoy the incredible good of being alive? Nothing can be accomplished by sustaining the damned forever, their wills are irrevocably set against God. Both they and God know annihilation would be a good, but the satisfaction of God’s justice is what trumps that good.
An interesting analogy, though I reject your conclusions, and one that I’ll have to think about in more detail. I have a couple tentative responses, but am unfortunately not familiar enough with the philosophy of animals, if such is a thing, to pick out which (if any) is correct. They all hinge on the difference between persons and non persons though.

Animals do not exist for their own sake as do humans (CCC 356), which led me to a handful of variations on why this scenario might not apply to the annihilation of persons (ranging from positing that animal death, while the end of their existence, is not analogous to annihilation because animals, being wholly material and not existing for their own sake, can be identified with their earlier and later forms [as in the animals that ate and will eat it] in some sense; to considering that it might actually be bad for the animal to die in this case but it is good in other ways, and animals, not existing for their own sake, lose out on that equation [not one that I favor, but not one that I’ve ruled out either], to …), but I don’t think this is the place for me to veer off into uninformed conjecture on animal existence.

Or at least not any further - I already typed and deleted about four different responses, but since I am unsure of all of them, I think I’ll settle for pointing out that there is a quality that could point to way to understand how annihilation can be evil while euthanasia of animals could be at least neutral and possibly good. (Note though that euthanasia of humans, even though that doesn’t end human existence, is not good, which also suggests a direction an argument could be found.)

I did find the analogy interesting though, even if I’m not convinced, and so will be reading around and thinking about it more. (Which means, at least if past experience is indicative, that I will be scratching my head and thinking up possible answers until such time as someone on some CAF thread somewhere points out that St. Thomas answered the question a few hundred years ago in a way that is both obviously correct and shows that about 90% of what I managed to come up with was just wrong.)
A more mundane consideration: how do you quote someone’s post and someone’s reply to that post as you so brilliantly did? I’m as dull as knives can be, this isn’t my first incarnation here and I haven’t been able to figure out how it’s done.
There may be a better way to do it, but I copy and paste the interior quote into the exterior quote and put quote=NAME] and /quote] around the interior quote (minus leading spaces inside the ]).
Being dumb is such a far-reaching curse, you have to be to appreciate it. Thank you.
Don’t worry, I understand - I teach. (Joke. Mostly.) In seriousness though, given that it takes me on average 10 minutes to find my list of subscribed threads every single time, despite (unless the admins are messing with me - that would be a fun joke) the fact that the method has never changed, I’m not sure I can claim to be better.
 
The mystery of evil flourishing especially at the expense of the good is what drives many people from God.

What Christianity does is transform what is on the surface the supreme victory of evil, the killing of God Himself, into the symbol of Transcendence.
Other approaches, ignore the mystery or describe ways to get out of suffering, but in Christianity, we go into it.
It is not a form of morbid masochism, but the very nature of Love, Caritas.

Within the Godhead Itself, we see the complete giving of the Father to the Son, who returns that love (the Holy Spirit) in complete loving filial obedience to the will of the Father.
We have been asked to join in the Holiest of Relationships.

This world is filled with unsatisfying, transient objects and pleasures. Without God, we are lost in our ignorance and cravings.
We have nothing to lose here but illusion, initially formulated in the great mind of Lucifer, offered to us in the garden, and transmitted through the passage of history.
Power, wealth, prestige, pleasures of the mind and the body amount to nothing. Blessings not given back to God or to one another will not grow, and will ultimately be taken back from us.

We walk with God when our lives are governed by a commitment to love and reason - a hopeful and faithful giving of ourselves to what is good and true. Like the “lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin . . . not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. . . if God so clothes the grass in the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, how much more will He clothe you?” All goodness will follow.

That commitment is tested, love is revealed in hardship, and truth is discovered, seeing though the lies and deceptions of the world. As much as Satan hates and attempts to thwart God, his actions serve only to drive the flock back to its Pastor.
 
When God creates, His act of creation is eternal to bring into creation and then annihilate what He creates is to contradict Himself, as if He created a situation or entity He couldn’t control, or that He made a mistake. God is infallible.

When God created He knew that whatever He created is fallible. Only God is infallible. His creation is good, but fallible. God can not create infallible creatures, for infallibility is an attribute of God alone. He is never wrong.

So to create man God had to create him fallible, or not at all, this includes those who would go to Heaven, and those who would go to Hell. He gave them free will so the choice is really theirs, not God’s. So for the greater good God created fallible man. Also He created fallible Angels with free will. Satan is allowed to test the Saints. James l: 12-13
Blessed be the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life that He promised to those who love Him. God draws good from evil. For fallible creation to exist is the greater good, then for it not to exist. When I speak of creation I speak of spiritual intelligent beings, men and angels.
God is never wrong because He is Omniscient, all-knowing
 
Rather, i think God lets humans procreate, whenever a child is conceived, God adds an immortal soul to that heap of cells which will develop in the womb and will come out nine months later. Since time is a creation of God, he has known for ever that my parents were going to have me, but i don’t believe he called me or willed me into existence. My parents chose to have sex, or rather my dad chose to have sex on one given day, and here I am as a result, God had no choice, given the system he decided humans were going to evolve in, but to impart the heap of cells that were the initial me with an immortal soul. God did not creat me knowing I was gonna end up eternally miserable, rather, my parents conceived me, by virtue of that conception i’ve been eternally on God’s mind, and God, witnessing my conception knew that this son of a gun (me) was gonna be deaf to his calls, resistant to his grace and finally impenitent. Do you see the nuance? That being said, it doesn’t make hell an easier pill to swallow. Annihilation would be so much better: Heaven becomes the prize, you fall short, hello oblivion and eternal “sleep”, no more “me”.
God does not call into existence to annihilate, that is a fatalistic attitude, no hope! A soul, the noblist part of man, containing intelligence, and free will, and spiritual, immortal by God’s design. It is created directly by God and infused into a body that was the result of your parents acting in co-operation with God’s design for propagation. So God is the direct cause of your existence, through your parents (only your body) as secondary causes. He gave you free will like all of us which was weakened by the sin of our fist parents, and intelligence which was darkened to the truth because of the loss of grace. He give you opportunity through faith in Jesus Christ to restore strength to your will, and enlightenment to your mind by reinstating you into the life of His Grace, and truth. You have a choice, hope, to counter a fatalistic and hopeless view of life, it’s your choice.
 
God is never wrong because He is Omniscient, all-knowing
“Aye, there’s the rub.” The Christian god knows all things, good or evil, will happen, yet he still creates. A bit of deduction does note arrive at a flattering view of this, particularly when you add in omnipotence.
 
“Aye, there’s the rub.” The Christian god knows all things, good or evil, will happen, yet he still creates. A bit of deduction does note arrive at a flattering view of this, particularly when you add in omnipotence.
You in your omniscience know better? You still have not got this straight. I would recommend sticking to Deism, proclaiming its virtues.
 
“Aye, there’s the rub.” The Christian god knows all things, good or evil, will happen, yet he still creates. A bit of deduction does note arrive at a flattering view of this, particularly when you add in omnipotence.
Your objection would be valid if you could explain how evil could be prevented but your inability to do so suggests that it is irrational.
 
God created Satan and holds him in existence, if I understand correctly. Why doesn’t God just annihilate Satan and the demons to remove that temptation? Why does he allow Satan and the other demons to exist?
"…and lead us not into temptation. "
Matthew 6:13
 
“Aye, there’s the rub.” The Christian god knows all things, good or evil, will happen, yet he still creates. A bit of deduction does note arrive at a flattering view of this, particularly when you add in omnipotence.
What i’ve noticed here consistently is that if you question love’s goodness and love, his omnibenevolence, people will quickly get rid of their cumbersome coat of charity and show hostility and disrespect. For what it’s worth, despite the little i know about deism, it is possibly the best attempt there is at explaining the world. God sets the ball in the motion, then the chips fall where they may. The mere presence of the Tree in Eden was enough to keep free-will a reality, adding Satan looks like the Christian God had ulterior motives other than to simply allow not choosing him a possiblity.

“God is never so and so because” , what follows “because” is an unsubstantiated claim that is just about as useful as the answer “Because” is to a question starting with “Why”.
 
What i’ve noticed here consistently is that if you question love’s goodness and love, his omnibenevolence, people will quickly get rid of their cumbersome coat of charity and show hostility and disrespect. For what it’s worth, despite the little i know about deism, it is possibly the best attempt there is at explaining the world. God sets the ball in the motion, then the chips fall where they may. The mere presence of the Tree in Eden was enough to keep free-will a reality, adding Satan looks like the Christian God had ulterior motives other than to simply allow not choosing him a possiblity.

“God is never so and so because” , what follows “because” is an unsubstantiated claim that is just about as useful as the answer “Because” is to a question starting with “Why”.
nowzen is not very subtle in his insulting use of my name on the same thread as a sequel to the posts he wrote belittling God before he was banned… 🤷
 
“Aye, there’s the rub.” The Christian god knows all things, good or evil, will happen, yet he still creates. A bit of deduction does note arrive at a flattering view of this, particularly when you add in omnipotence.
Some deduction does allow this. We would be blind to not acknowledge that the problem of evil is the greatest argument against the existence of God, as opposed to numerous arguments that argue for the existence of God.

I think the understanding of the word “omnipotence” needs clarified. There is some things God cannot do. He cannot create a logical impossibility. He can also not be untrue to His own nature. Therefore the solution to the problem of evil may be as simple as the impossibility of creating truly free beings, as individual persons and free will, without the possibility of sin, and therefore evil.
 
The deist god is incapable of love yet he continues to create for no reason or purpose whatsoever. In spite of all his power he is diabolically indifferent to the fate of his unfortunate victims whom he abandons without giving them the faintest ray of hope or consolation. It would be far better if he had never brought them into existence…
 
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