Why does God allow Satan to Exist

[Iron_Donkey]

Did the christian God have control of Satan or did He not? Did Satan and his likes magically escape from an omnipotent God? I call that unleashing. You say that your god only let a little bit of evil loose, so, he’s clean.

Why is it that you think that God, to be good, must hold all of his creatures in an iron fist at all times? Of course God has the ability to completely control Satan and all of us as well, but it takes more than a mere assertion to show that if God does not use this control in the manner of a tyrant, then he is being evil.

You assume that god is concerned with goodness and badness if you will, but there is no evidence of that. The standards for good and bad (evil) are man-made and enforced in Deism, because that is what observation tells us. God is the creator.

Not logically possible. It’s not a matter of God merely being concerned with what is good and what is bad. God, in order to be God, MUST be goodness. It is a logically required attribute. God and Absolute Good are the same thing. In order for God to be God, He must be the source of absolutely everything. (Preemptively, evil is not a thing but a twisting of what is good.)

Again, there is no possible way to meaningfully say that anything should be in a certain way other than to say that it corresponds to the standard that is God. Meaning is not self generating, and mere creatures don’t magically acquire the ability to generate it either, just because they can imagine that it exists. If meaning exists, it comes from God. If there is a meaningful standard of what is good, it comes from God.

So while men might make up ideas of what is good and what is evil, these ideas are ultimately meaningless except insofar as they agree with an actual standard that has its origin in God. And there is such a standard, because God is one - the whole God is existence is goodness is love thing.

It’s not just a matter of some giant person floating in the sky who can think planets into existence and who may or may not care about good or evil. The deist conception of God realizes the necessity of a creator, but the existence of an ultimate creator also requires other things.

 

[oldcelt]

Why is it that you think that God, to be good, must hold all of his creatures in an iron fist at all times? Of course God has the ability to completely control Satan and all of us as well, but it takes more than a mere assertion to show that if God does not use this control in the manner of a tyrant, then he is being evil.

Not logically possible. It’s not a matter of God merely being concerned with what is good and what is bad. God, in order to be God, MUST be goodness. It is a logically required attribute. God and Absolute Good are the same thing. In order for God to be God, He must be the source of absolutely everything. (Preemptively, evil is not a thing but a twisting of what is good.)

Again, there is no possible way to meaningfully say that anything should be in a certain way other than to say that it corresponds to the standard that is God. Meaning is not self generating, and mere creatures don’t magically acquire the ability to generate it either, just because they can imagine that it exists. If meaning exists, it comes from God. If there is a meaningful standard of what is good, it comes from God.

So while men might make up ideas of what is good and what is evil, these ideas are ultimately meaningless except insofar as they agree with an actual standard that has its origin in God. And there is such a standard, because God is one - the whole God is existence is goodness is love thing.

It’s not just a matter of some giant person floating in the sky who can think planets into existence and who may or may not care about good or evil. The deist conception of God realizes the necessity of a creator, but the existence of an ultimate creator also requires other things.

Meaning is very much self-generating in a sentient being. All one need do is look at the proliferation of languages and religions. Only one religion can be correct and it is quite possible that all are wrong.

You claim that a concern with good and evil are a logically required attribute of a deity…where did you get that idea, and why do many not share it? You are expressing your beliefs as if they we fact…a common mistake on this board.

You also say that God allows evil to run free so as not to be a tyrant. That is the poorest excuse I have heard yet, especially in defense of a God who could conceive of hell.

 

[oldcelt]

That is precisely why Deism is illogical:

An amoral God is an inadequate basis for morality…

There is no need for any god as a basis for morality. Humanity takes care of that quite nicely.

My Tony, you do seem threatened by Deism…illogical, amoral. Remember, we are believers…believers who don’t believe that God would create Satan.

 

[ynotzap]

There is no need for any god as a basis for morality. Humanity takes care of that quite nicely.

My Tony, you do seem threatened by Deism…illogical, amoral. Remember, we are believers…believers who don’t believe that God would create Satan.

One of the biggest deceits, Satan living up to his name, a liar, and a murderer has on humanity is deceiving humanity as to his existence. Even some priest don’t speak of this reality much. But this truth of his existence has been experienced profoundly by our exorcists, and saints, and affirmed by our God, Jesus Christ. It is for this reason Jesus made His appearance over 2000 years ago. Deny it if you will. But to share our beliefs and experience God did not create Satan as such, that was his own doing. He was created an angel called Lucifer, the bearer of Light, next to the Throne of God. By his pride and ingratitude, he rebelled against God and separated himself from God by his free will. He wasn’t ignorant as we, so the consequence of his acts was due to a malicious will. Now he is the bearer of darkness, lies, and murder. God allowed him to test the saints those that would engage him in spiritual battle with the grace of God, merited by Jesus. Without the grace, humanity doesn’t have a chance to achieve what they were created for, God himself. We by our free will must want God for himself, and we prove this when we obey Him, love Him with all our strength and soul, and to prove this we must love our neighbor as ourselves. The same goes for man as it did for Lucifer. God didn’t create criminals, or liars, or murderers, but history testifies that men do all of these things. God is blamed for evil, rather than those who commit evil by free choice, some call it “the blame game” This Faith is a gift from God, merited for us by Jesus Christ. And we can not expect from one,if he doesn’t have the gift. One does with what he has, and we must respect that, but in the same breadth he must respect what we have even if he doesn’t agree.

 

[tonyrey]

*That is precisely why Deism is illogical: *

Not if one takes into account the fact that one third of humanity are deprived of the basic necessities of life. If everyone heeded the teaching of Christ no one would be neglected or exploited.

My Tony, you do seem threatened by Deism…illogical, amoral.

Why on earth should anyone feel threatened by an illogical belief?

Remember, we are believers…believers who don’t believe that God would create Satan.

God didn’t create Satan as a source of iniquity. Any of us could lead others astray, John. I think you believe God doesn’t care whether what we do or how much we suffer…

 

[Lion_IRC]

God created Satan and holds him in existence, if I understand correctly. Why doesn’t God just annihilate Satan and the demons to remove that temptation? Why does he allow Satan and the other demons to exist?

I always thought satan created ‘satan’.

God didn’t make Adam a sinner. Adam made Adam into a sinner.
God didn’t make me a “sinner”. I made me a sinner.

The real question is, can satan blame God for being God?

 

[oldcelt]

I always thought satan created ‘satan’.

God didn’t make Adam a sinner. Adam made Adam into a sinner.
God didn’t make me a “sinner”. I made me a sinner.

The real question is, can Satan blame God for being God?

The Christian God is omniscient. He knew in advance what Satan would become…that’s what omniscience is all about

 

[oldcelt]

Not if one takes into account the fact that one third of humanity are deprived of the basic necessities of life. If everyone heeded the teaching of Christ no one would be neglected or exploited.
Why on earth should anyone feel threatened by an illogical belief?
God didn’t create Satan as a source of iniquity. Any of us could lead others astray, John. I think you believe God doesn’t care whether what we do or how much we suffer…

Human deprivation relates far more to location and population than morals. Which teaching of Christ would solve that unless you can get the wealthy to loosen up.

I don’t know why you feel threatened, maybe it’s because a lot of the founders of the US were Deist and you are a Monarchist?

Your God would have known that Satan would be a source of iniquity and few of us have an army of demons (Who your God would have also created) to help us lead others astray.

I believe that God is not involved in our daily affairs…I’ve said it dozens of times and any Deist site will tell you approximately the same things.

 

[ynotzap]

Human deprivation relates far more to location and population than morals. Which teaching of Christ would solve that unless you can get the wealthy to loosen up.

I don’t know why you feel threatened, maybe it’s because a lot of the founders of the US were Deist and you are a Monarchist?

Your God would have known that Satan would be a source of iniquity and few of us have an army of demons (Who your God would have also created) to help us lead others astray.

I believe that God is not involved in our daily affairs…I’ve said it dozens of times and any Deist site will tell you approximately the same things.

You are saying because evil exists (the absence of good) and people suffer, and
God knows it and He lets it continue, you conclude that God has abandoned His creation. Of course we Christians know that creation couldn’t continue to exist if He did . We know that we are completely dependent upon Him for every heart-beat, every breadth we take, and as He says “Can we make one strand of hair to grow by willing it?” Is it that we abandoned God? Are we interested in even knowing that there is a God? The birds neither reap or sow, but God takes care of them, you are worth more than many birds. I have no doubt and I think others will agree with me that if people would turn to Jesus Christ for the remedy of evil, much suffering would be eliminated, I say much suffering, not all because nothing imperfect will be united to God, our destiny unless it is purified, suffering does purge us, refines us like gold in a furnace. This world is not our heaven no matter how much health, wealth, and luxury we enjoy, or have. I t all comes to an end and the grave yards are proof of this. Jesus gave us the example of how to live. By trusting Him is to love Him, we practice the virtue of Hope, and what is hope if we do not receive what we hoped for.

Who can know the mind of the Lord.? A man can not judge the wisdom of his own judgement. Can we be so arrogant, or proud to judge God? Or might we be in so much pain that it has affected our judgement? Feelings do have a powerful influence over our judgement, and this is one of the effects of original sin. We need the grace of God to put feelings in their place, and not control us

 

[oldcelt]

You are saying because evil exists (the absence of good) and people suffer, and
God knows it and He lets it continue, you conclude that God has abandoned His creation. Of course we Christians know that creation couldn’t continue to exist if He did . We know that we are completely dependent upon Him for every heart-beat, every breadth we take, and as He says “Can we make one strand of hair to grow by willing it?” Is it that we abandoned God? Are we interested in even knowing that there is a God? The birds neither reap or sow, but God takes care of them, you are worth more than many birds. I have no doubt and I think others will agree with me that if people would turn to Jesus Christ for the remedy of evil, much suffering would be eliminated, I say much suffering, not all because nothing imperfect will be united to God, our destiny unless it is purified, suffering does purge us, refines us like gold in a furnace. This world is not our heaven no matter how much health, wealth, and luxury we enjoy, or have. I t all comes to an end and the grave yards are proof of this. Jesus gave us the example of how to live. By trusting Him is to love Him, we practice the virtue of Hope, and what is hope if we do not receive what we hoped for.

Who can know the mind of the Lord.? A man can not judge the wisdom of his own judgement. Can we be so arrogant, or proud to judge God? Or might we be in so much pain that it has affected our judgement? Feelings do have a powerful influence over our judgement, and this is one of the effects of original sin. We need the grace of God to put feelings in their place, and not control us

God has not abandoned his creation…it continues…I just don’t believe that it follows in the Christian sense. We have different beliefs…obviously…

I need not know the mind of God…I can observe the reality. That is all that matters to me, even though it is my observation.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Lion IRC;12385891:

Boulder257;12366548:

God created Satan and holds him in existence, if I understand correctly. Why doesn’t God just annihilate Satan and the demons to remove that temptation? Why does he allow Satan and the other demons to exist?

I always thought satan created ‘satan’.

God didn’t make Adam a sinner. Adam made Adam into a sinner.
God didn’t make me a “sinner”. I made me a sinner.

The real question is, can satan blame God for being God?

The Christian God is omniscient. He knew in advance what Satan would become…that’s what omniscience is all about

I’m cautious and a little bit skeptical when people appear speak emphatically and authoritatively about the absolute true nature of “omniscience” and what it means in the context of God’s omnipotence. Are you an expert in this area of biblical monotheism?

The Op question is why does God allow satan, (who was not always evil,) to exist - which presumes that God does have a prior REASON.

But if your definition of God’s omniscience is that God necessarily knows/understands everything there is to know/understand about everything forever and ever, then in what sense does He have a “reason” for the existence of any given thing at any given time?

If your concept of ‘compulsory’ omniscience applies to God then I think a theological problem arises in relation to entire notion of God having a ‘reason’ for this, that or the other.

Since God knows everything, owns everything, and understands everything, and because everything is existentially inter-related to everything else by virtue of sharing a common Creator, (cause) there doesn’t seem to be any need for a separate “reason” for one thing as distinct from a different reason for another thing. He knows everything about everything as a whole. So why a separate reason for a single thing, when He has always known and universally understood everything - including their inter-relatedness?

Or to put it another way, does God have free will if He already (as a brute reality) knows everything, including what His own future actions will be? That would imply that satans existence was inevitable and God has always known of this and yet…

…God is being asked what His reason was for doing something which was foreknown and therefore inevitable.

 

[Dorothy]

With my finite mind I cannot wrap myself around the infinite knowledge of God.

I love Him and have faith in Him because of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I believe in His infinite love for us. I believe in His Life, Death, and Resurrection.

---

With regard to why does God allow Satan to stay in existence…What God gives He does not take back, but uses it for a higher purpose. I cannot complain, I have the Remedy!

May our loving God lead us all into the fullness of His Way, Truth, and Life.

 

[tonyrey]

Or to put it another way, does God have free will if He already (as a brute reality) knows everything, including what His own future actions will be? That would imply that satans existence was inevitable and God has always known of this and yet…

…God is being asked what His reason was for doing something which was foreknown and therefore inevitable.

1. Knowledge does** not **imply causation.
2. “foreknown” is not applicable to God - who transcends time and space.

 

[tonyrey]

I need not know the mind of God…I can observe the reality. That is all that matters to me, even though it is my observation.

You rely on your interpretation of what you observe. You perceive a minute proportion of what God has created - which is quite insufficient to reach the conclusion that He takes no interest in what He has created. Since you condemn those who abandon their children you should also condemn your deist God yet you have not done so. Is He guilty or doesn’t He know what He is doing? There is no other alternative unless you can explain the cause of His alleged indifference.

 

[tonyrey]

Not if one takes into account the fact that one third of humanity are deprived of the basic necessities of life. If everyone heeded the teaching of Christ no one would be neglected or exploited.
Why on earth should anyone feel threatened by an illogical belief?
God didn’t create Satan as a source of iniquity. Any of us could lead others astray, John. I think you believe God doesn’t care whether what we do or how much we suffer…Human deprivation relates far more to location and population than morals.

“Blessed are the poor…” and the parable of Dives and Lazarus.

I don’t know why you feel threatened, maybe it’s because a lot of the founders of the US were Deist and you are a Monarchist?

Sheer fantasy! I have always been a Republican and I **don’t **feel threatened by an absurd belief.

Your God would have known that Satan would be a source of iniquity and few of us have an army of demons (Who your God would have also created) to help us lead others astray.

God did not create Satan as a source of iniquity but gave him free will.

I believe that God is not involved in our daily affairs…I’ve said it dozens of times and any Deist site will tell you approximately the same things.

Repetition alone doesn’t make a statement true. If it is unsupported by facts it makes it all the more unconvincing.

How can you prove miracles have **never **occurred? If the Creator never intervenes there is no evidence that He exists. In this case absence doesn’t make the heart fonder but harder:

Come, let us sing for joy to the Lord;
let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
2 Let us come before him with thanksgiving
and extol him with music and song.
3 For the Lord is the great God,
the great King above all gods.
4 In his hand are the depths of the earth,
and the mountain peaks belong to him.
5 The sea is his, for he made it,
and his hands formed the dry land.

6 Come, let us bow down in worship,
let us kneel before the Lord our Maker;
7 for he is our God
and we are the people of his pasture,
the flock under his care.

Today, if only you would hear his voice,
8 ‘Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah,
as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested me;
they tried me, though they had seen what I did.
10 For forty years I was angry with that generation;
I said, “They are a people whose hearts go astray,
and they have not known my ways.”

Psalm 95

 

[oldcelt]

“Blessed are the poor…” and the parable of Dives and Lazarus.

Sheer fantasy! I have always been a Republican and I **don’t **feel threatened by an absurd belief.

God did not create Satan as a source of iniquity but gave him free will.
Repetition alone doesn’t make a statement true. If it is unsupported by facts it makes it all the more unconvincing.

How can you prove miracles have **never **occurred? If the Creator never intervenes there is no evidence that He exists. In this case absence doesn’t make the heart fonder but harder:

Psalm 95

We all need to remember the bolded part…but I said I believe…that is not declaring a fact.

In the final paragraph…how can you prove any of your beliefs? I already know the answer.

 

[oldcelt]

1. Knowledge does** not **imply causation.
2. "foreknown" is not applicable to God - who transcends time and space.

That is an even bigger edge…he creates knowingly in Christianity.

 

[tonyrey]

We all need to remember the bolded part…but I said I believe…that is not declaring a fact.

In the final paragraph…how can you prove any of your beliefs? I already know the answer.

“I already know the answer” presupposes belief in the power of reason.
It also presupposes the existence of a rational being…

 

[tonyrey]

1. Knowledge does* not ***

That is precisely why it has the edge over deism! Rational beings cannot be created by a God who doesn’t know what He is doing - unless you believe He performs miracles unwittingly!

 

[Aloysium]

Perhaps, it was Youngcelt’s self-imposed duty in kindergarten to go around telling all the kids there is no Santa. But, Santa is a thing, God is Love. It here sounds foolish.

God has absolute power, but that power is love. What one sees in the world is the abandonment of love for power.

A Deist god is a god of power. Where power is the centre of existence, humanity’s will to power is not depravity but our fulfillment. Deism is the way to Nietzsche’s superman.