O
oldcelt
Guest
Not an issue when God doesn’t create humans…humans do and miracles do not exist.
- Status
O
oldcelt
Guest
More like Washington and Jefferson’s route to liberation of humanity from the power of the various churches.
I
Iron_Donkey
Guest
Sentient beings can pretend that there is meaning, but that doesn’t make it actually exist. Without an absolute standard, morality and the like is reduced to the same level as a person’s favorite color. I may like red better than blue, but there is no way to say that red is actually better than blue. There is no actual reason why red is objectively better than blue. And without a standard, there is no actual reason to say that not murdering and torturing each other is actually better than murdering and torturing each other. Most of us may think so, but it takes more than my thoughts to make something so - otherwise, please demonstrate how meaning actually arises from nothingness just because I think it does.
It is absolutely true that at most one religion is correct, but the fact that lots of people are wrong doesn’t magically make people right.
I’ve given brief explanations several times, but here’s a link: newadvent.org/summa/1006.htm
I do not say that is the reason, but that it is a consequence of the argument you appear to making. What I say is that thinking about creatures escaping God’s control is silly because God never intended to create thinking beings as puppets. Satan did not cut his strings because he never had strings and wasn’t meant to. The ability to do evil is a consequence of freedom. If you think that freedom, with the possibility of evil, is objectively worse than a universe of puppets (which would be morally indistinguishable from a universe of rocks), then it’s on you to prove that.
O
oldcelt
Guest
Deists do not believe that god interferes in human existence…now that’s freedom. Does it yield some evil…sure…but it is from us. I think we have a very different view of “puppets.”
And neither of us can prove anything about the supernatural…the rest is pure faith.
I
Iron_Donkey
Guest
Well yes, but as I’ve mentioned that doesn’t actually make sense. Sorry if I’m being overly blunt, but I’ve posted the reasons before and you haven’t responded to them, so if you wish to do so now I’ll just refer you back to earlier posts.
Except if it actually is evil, then its because there is good that comes, as all actual things do, from God. And if it’s not then it’s not worth calling evil. Which I think is both observationally absurd, and self contradictory within deism, as previously explained: God in order to be God, necessitates an actual standard of good, which is Him, and further the attempt to explain evil away as not only something we do, but as a concept that only exists in our minds and not an actual real, fundamental nature of reality type of thing, is not only to trivialize actual evil but smells of pulling a blanket over our heads in the hopes that the monster will go away. We see evil, we don’t like, and so our solution is to say that it isn’t really there, really, it’s only a construct we make to describe our arbitrary preferences. And that doesn’t sound so bad as “we in our imperfection can and do choose to oppose the most fundamental aspect of reality that there is in ways that are disastrous for us and others, for no more reason than we felt like it.”
That is actually not true. Proof of the negation, by way of counter example.
T
tonyrey
Guest
T
tonyrey
Guest
God’s lack of love and inferiority are the fundamental flaws in deism.
T
tonyrey
Guest
Less ambiguous:
The fundamental flaws in deism are God’s alleged inferiority and lack of love.
O
oldcelt
Guest
All either your belief or New Advent’s, neither of which rise to the level of proof. Deism simply does not believe in that Big Daddy in the sky. We see a need for a creator and that is what we believe exists. No other functions are necessary.
O
oldcelt
Guest
As creator, I can see no inferiority or lack of love. He began creation in a state of hopefulness. What he feels about it now, I couldn’t begin to say.
F
fred_conty
Guest
I have to disagree with you. Tho the deist god is what you say he is, those are secondary inadequacies. The primary ones are he is inept and ignorant because he can’t do anything about anything in his creation, and wouldn’t know what to do if he saw what to do.
So the next time you might try getting it right and put first first, and second second, thank you.
T
tonyrey
Guest
I leave the deists to tell us whether it is true that they believe God “can’t do anything about anything in his creation, and wouldn’t know what to do if he saw what to do”.
At all events I believe lack of love is the most serious inadequacy, far greater than ineptitude and ignorance.
An unnecessary ad hominem which is a breach of the forum conduct rule of courtesy - for which you should apologise.
T
tonyrey
Guest
How do you know God was hopeful and why were His hopes frustrated? Is His power limited?
I
Iron_Donkey
Guest
Your assertion that it is not proof does not make it not proof. In order to substantiate that claim, it is necessary to demonstrate a flaw in the proof.
That deism sees a need for a creator and stops there is because deism exactly does see a big daddy in the sky. It just so happens that the big sky daddy they see is kind of a worthless father - a big amoral thing that makes things without thought for the consequences. You treat God as though He were just some big guy who can make things, which, as I might have said once or twice or about a thousand times, is insufficient.
If you really want to address the question of why there is something rather than nothing, then God must be a being who explains His own existence (otherwise the question “why does God exist?” or “what made God?” remains a question with an answer distinct from God, which makes God not the answer to why is there something other than nothing, which makes Him not God). Not merely a powerful being, but being itself. And that has consequences. Ignoring them under the claim that “well those are just someone else’s beliefs” is to be intentionally blind.
A
Aloysium
Guest
Christianity understands the Divine as Love, complete and simple in the Triune Godhead.
We are eternal beings, made in the image of God. Endowed with the capacity to relate, we are journeying towards that Ground of all being, who is its Cause and wherein we find fulfillment.
There are a variety of religious and philosophical views, reflecting in general terms, the uniqueness that exists in the relationship of each individual with God and the fact that we all enter into relationship with Reality as part of our community. Catholicism, as the surest way to God, has a Magisterium to clarify the truth that has been revealed to man.
Contrasting our beliefs with those held by many Deists can make clearer our relationship with God. We more or less share the belief that the existence of God can be determined by reason in observing the natural world. However, their belief system includes the proposition that there are no miracles nor any involvement by God in His creation. They do see God as having created us with the capacity to reason and thereby make moral judgements. In this light, the mystery of evil is conceptualized as a consequence of our being mortal and having desires. Ultimately, it arises out of a simply human choice to behave in one manner or another.
The view is limited since to better understand God, we must go beyond the regularities of nature and include existence itself - our own self and that of others. God is known not only intellectually, but in beauty. A glorious sunset, the immensity of space, the beauty of a piece of music are more than what is happening in one’s mind. They involve the relating of the mystery that is oneself to that “object”, that other, whose qualities one is experiencing. These mysteries that constitute relationship have as their Foundation, God who is Relationality itself - Love. One has to go beyond oneself, beyond the ideas of what is out there, to the very core of what is going on right here, in this moment as we communicate, with all the wonder that the complexity and shear beingness it contains.
For those who do not believe that God grants us what we need, the belief that God does not intervene stems from the realization that what we receive does not coincide with what we want. The response to this is either to conform to what He desires for us, or to remain self-centred, wanting what we want, and relying on our own efforts to grab it. We are here to do His will, to share what we have been given, but when circumstances do not proceed as we would wish, we can deny His existence or His importance in our lives.
So why evil, in a universe created out of love and journeying towards love? I would say that the mystery gives depth to existence.
Some decry their not being made of stone, or not perptually existing in some form of bovine stupor, or perhaps to not have it all - good looks, good health, wealth, honour, everything transient and meagrely parcelled out to humanity. But, it is Love that truly has worth, that underlies each and every good.
When we seek to possess, we always come up empty handed. In giving we receive what has value in eternity.
The reality of evil is a consequence of our free will, the ability to participate in the creation of who we are.
Time as a past and future surrounding the moment,
the moment being
Sorry for the wall of words.
Too many :twocents:
We are eternal beings, made in the image of God. Endowed with the capacity to relate, we are journeying towards that Ground of all being, who is its Cause and wherein we find fulfillment.
There are a variety of religious and philosophical views, reflecting in general terms, the uniqueness that exists in the relationship of each individual with God and the fact that we all enter into relationship with Reality as part of our community. Catholicism, as the surest way to God, has a Magisterium to clarify the truth that has been revealed to man.
Contrasting our beliefs with those held by many Deists can make clearer our relationship with God. We more or less share the belief that the existence of God can be determined by reason in observing the natural world. However, their belief system includes the proposition that there are no miracles nor any involvement by God in His creation. They do see God as having created us with the capacity to reason and thereby make moral judgements. In this light, the mystery of evil is conceptualized as a consequence of our being mortal and having desires. Ultimately, it arises out of a simply human choice to behave in one manner or another.
The view is limited since to better understand God, we must go beyond the regularities of nature and include existence itself - our own self and that of others. God is known not only intellectually, but in beauty. A glorious sunset, the immensity of space, the beauty of a piece of music are more than what is happening in one’s mind. They involve the relating of the mystery that is oneself to that “object”, that other, whose qualities one is experiencing. These mysteries that constitute relationship have as their Foundation, God who is Relationality itself - Love. One has to go beyond oneself, beyond the ideas of what is out there, to the very core of what is going on right here, in this moment as we communicate, with all the wonder that the complexity and shear beingness it contains.
For those who do not believe that God grants us what we need, the belief that God does not intervene stems from the realization that what we receive does not coincide with what we want. The response to this is either to conform to what He desires for us, or to remain self-centred, wanting what we want, and relying on our own efforts to grab it. We are here to do His will, to share what we have been given, but when circumstances do not proceed as we would wish, we can deny His existence or His importance in our lives.
So why evil, in a universe created out of love and journeying towards love? I would say that the mystery gives depth to existence.
Some decry their not being made of stone, or not perptually existing in some form of bovine stupor, or perhaps to not have it all - good looks, good health, wealth, honour, everything transient and meagrely parcelled out to humanity. But, it is Love that truly has worth, that underlies each and every good.
When we seek to possess, we always come up empty handed. In giving we receive what has value in eternity.
The reality of evil is a consequence of our free will, the ability to participate in the creation of who we are.
Time as a past and future surrounding the moment,
the moment being
- the result of our choices
- changing, moving towards that which we will decide,
is the reality of our eternal spiritual soul becoming ever more Christ-like or demonic through the exercise of its free will.
We choose to do good or do evil, as the Deists would hold, but the morality transcends our humanity and reflects the Love and Will that lies beyond creation.
In spite of evil, the world is good; the Lamb was sacrificed before its foundation that we might all be saved, and what evil remains will meet Justice.
Sorry for the wall of words.
Too many :twocents:
O
oldcelt
Guest
Revelation is unreliable and potentially downright false. So we keep it simple.
T
tonyrey
Guest
More unanswered questions! Deism obscures rather than clarifies…
T
tonyrey
Guest
Simple to the point of obscurity!
God allows Satan to exist because love cannot exist without freedom. That is just one of the truths revealed by religion.
Y
ynotzap
Guest
Why not allow Satan and other demons to exist?
Is it because evil which we attribute to him has caused us human misery? Is he the only cause? And how can he cause us to will evil.? Can God create an entity He could not control? No matter what this entity willed, and used the power God gave him, or them? Would God be God if this were the case? The effect can never be greater than the cause or even equal to the cause. Can God be compared with his creation?
Satan’s and other fallen angels are God’s creation, and they do give glory to God, although being unwilling, just by their existence, for they were made good, and even holy. Satan and others were beautiful creations by God. Although their personal actions do not directly give glory to God, they do so indirectly, for God being God can draw good from evil. This only God can do. God did redeem mankind from Satan’s evil influence and control of mankind in the Divine Person of Jesus Christ. Salvation from evil comes only from Jesus Christ, there is no other Savior of man from the works of Satan and the evil works of men With the acceptance of Jesus Christ,and His grace and teachings not only is redemption quaranteed, but mankind is able to defeat a more powerful being, Satan,and others. thus glorifying God again who can do all things.
O
oldcelt
Guest
Perhaps, but we don’t claim anything aside from what seems reasonable…that God is the First Cause.
- Status