Why does God allow Satan to Exist

[tonyrey]

nowzen is not very subtle in his insulting use of my name on the same thread as a sequel to the posts he wrote belittling God before he was banned…

Correction:

nownzen is not very subtle in his insulting use of my name on the same thread as a sequel to the posts he wrote belittling God before he was banned…

 

[tonysonlyfriend]

The deist god is incapable of love yet he continues to create for no reason or purpose whatsoever. In spite of all his power he is diabolically indifferent to the fate of his unfortunate victims whom he abandons without giving them the faintest ray of hope or consolation. It would be far better if he had never brought them into existence…

If the deist’s god is anywhere near the Christian god when it comes to offense, you’re in for an unpleasant surprise. Funny you say “victims”, whereas the Christian god’s people are, according to you, recipients of his wondrous love and care. Let’s say all of mankind from Adam to the last person born at the end of the world, at what percentage of damnation, of humans going to hell, does God’s idea of creation and redemption become abominable? If only 10% of the whole humanity makes it to Heaven, then it will have been worth it? For argument’s sake, let’s say someone who goes to hell freely chooses to go there, then perhaps God created a species essentially unable to conquer its nature and choose him. If I give 10 children exactly the same thing, if 9 out of 10 get corrupted and see their lives going downhill, even if it is due to their own choices, then as a smart, caring and loving adult, I will not give that gift anymore because they simply cannot handle it. With your last sentence you start to make sense. God has some goodness in him, not all good not all bad, this earth is pretty neat, though, there is amazing beauty in lots of places, in lots of people. But what happens to all of us who die without perfect contrition makes the beauty of creation worthless. Nownzen’s has been damned from this site. No need to bring up his condemnation.

Question in passing: we all know the reason why there was a Tree in Eden (free-will, being a robot is not optimal etc.), why make the likelihood of transgression substantially higher by placing Lucifer/Satan in it? The Tree itself was sufficient for free-will to exist, why God was intent on making it easier for man to disobey him? God doesn’t make sense. I heard the analogy and will quote it: Jesus became incarnate to rescue a fallen humanity in the same way that a man will set a building on fire and then will rescue people.

 

[Aloysium]

The deist god is incapable of love yet he continues to create for no reason or purpose whatsoever. In spite of all his power he is diabolically indifferent to the fate of his unfortunate victims whom he abandons without giving them the faintest ray of hope or consolation. It would be far better if he had never brought them into existence…

I have read nothing that suggests that Deist god is anything but an illusion, fabricated to intellectually make sense of evil in the most superficial way, offering no hope, no moral direction, but a justification for one’s own complacency and self-absorption.

 

[Aloysium]

. . .But what happens to all of us who die without perfect contrition makes the beauty of creation worthless. . .

The bottom line: whatever one believes, this is your life and your responsibility how you live it.

I see the entire universe created by He who is Love itself. The purpose of creation is to become love, to join in eternal union with its Creator. Those who wish not to participate, will not. All that is asked is to give what has been given, and will ultimately be taken back. Power, earthly riches, and pleasures, as much as they seem real here in service of the ego, amount to nothing within eternity. In giving of ourselves to our neighbour and our Father, the love that truly enriches us will grow.

The above comment suggests a lack of respect for people’s decisions. If love (conscience) shows someone how one has hurt people and messed up one’s own life and that person gets angry that one is not god himself, that one should be able to do whatever one wishes, well that’s a choice the person makes. They will get their reward - themselves, empty of love.

 

[ynotzap]

If the deist’s god is anywhere near the Christia
Question in passing: we all know the reason why there was a Tree in Eden (free-will, being a robot is not optimal etc.), why make the likelihood of transgression substantially higher by placing Lucifer/Satan in it? The Tree itself was sufficient for free-will to exist, why God was intent on making it easier for man to disobey him? God doesn’t make sense. I heard the analogy and will quote it: Jesus became incarnate to rescue a fallen humanity in the same way that a man will set a building on fire and then will rescue people.

Adam and Eve, and including Satan had all the graces from God that they needed to succeed in their test of humility and pride, their will, or God’s will. Concerning Adam and Eve, The graces that God endowed them with before the fall was more powerful than all of Satan’s deceits yet because of their fallibility and Satan’s fallibility through pride they turned from God and turned to themselves (to be like God) God did not in any way cause Satan, or Adam and Eve to fall into sin, which is disobedience to God so that He could rescue mankind, that is contradictory. and sadistical. Sadistical because look at what sin has done to mankind.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

tonyrey:

The deist god is incapable of love yet he continues to create for no reason or purpose whatsoever. In spite of all his power he is diabolically indifferent to the fate of his unfortunate victims whom he abandons without giving them the faintest ray of hope or consolation. It would be far better if he had never brought them into existence…

Which essentially makes him not God. Deism seems self defeating in that way - if there is such thing as a first cause God, then He is Goodness, Existence, etc. He is The Standard, and He lives up to Himself by default.

If there is no standard, there is no God. If there is a standard above God, then God is not God, because for God to be God, nothing can be above Him. If there is no God, there is no standard. The alternatives then are nihilism and benevolent theism, and nihilism has its own problems.

Deism tries to find a middle ground, and at first glance seems tempting, but it ultimately fails exactly because God must be the standard. If you hold omnipotence, then If in fact the claim that if an omnipotent God allows evil then that God must be evil is true, then the deist God is also evil, which is simply a contradiction as what is evil can only be defined by how it compares to a standard, which must be God. If you deny omnipotence, then God isn’t God - it is a consequence of the first cause argument that all things that are are permitted to be so by God.

Or in short, a watchmaker God is no more God than an actual watchmaker - there is no (purely from natural reason, so far as I know) reason why this universe couldn’t have been made by an indifferent being, but if it was then that indifferent being does not have the properties demanded of the First Cause God, and so there must be a first cause God above it (and then you could ask why that God allowed the lesser god to create a world with evil, and if it was a problem when God was the direct creator, it will also be a problem when He is thought to be the indirect creator).

The only way out is to hold that God is omnipotent, and also the perfect standard for what is good, but that we might not understand how that works exactly because we are not the perfect standard for what is good. Which, not exactly surprisingly, is exactly what Christianity teaches. We can ask why evil is allowed, and we can gain some partial insight, even some great insight. But even if we couldn’t or if we don’t like the proposed explanations, it is important to understand that if we are talking about a being so far above ourselves that we only exist because He happens to think it is a good idea right now that we do, and who understands and knows everything that ever was, will, or could be, then we are talking about a being who might have a perspective that motivates Him to act differently than us. That is, just because we can’t see a reason doesn’t mean there isn’t one. And it also doesn’t mean that we won’t grow to understand the reason more later on, even if at the moment we don’t like it. (We are as to God what our rather stupid rebellious teenage selves were to our parents, only more so: we think we know more than we do, that He knows less than He does, and we are constantly surprised to find ourselves wrong on either count.)

 

[oldcelt]

The Deist god is the creator, not a babysitter. Look around…we are on our own and always have been. Evil comes through our own actions, as does good. The decline of Christianity commenced with the age of reason when people began to realize that what they were being told simply didn’t add up.

This thread is a perfect example. …a good and loving god unleashing evil on his creation. To quote Iron Donkey, “Which essentially makes him not God.”

 

[pnewton]

This thread is a perfect example. …a good and loving god unleashing evil on his creation. To quote Iron Donkey, “Which essentially makes him not God.”

I would say rather that His creation (having separate creatures with personhood and freewill) was not possible without the possibility of evil.

 

[oldcelt]

I would say rather that His creation (having separate creatures with personhood and freewill) was not possible without the possibility of evil.

Agreed…even an evolutionary system results in evil. Is Satan just a fictional creation to explain this? I think so.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

The Deist god is the creator, not a babysitter. Look around…we are on our own and always have been. Evil comes through our own actions, as does good.

Many evil and good things do come from our actions, but they can’t be called evil or good unless there is such a thing as evil and goodness. And again, there can be no such thing as goodness (hence evilness) without a good God. And if there is a God, He is the standard for goodness. Saying He’s not a baby sitter doesn’t get around that - He’s there or He’s not, and if He is there, He is absolute goodness. And if He is absolute Goodness, and if allowing evil is evil, then He is evil. Which would be a contradiction.

So either the Deist God doesn’t exist, or it’s not evil to allow evil when you can stop it.

The decline of Christianity commenced with the age of reason when people began to realize that what they were being told simply didn’t add up.

This is actually pretty much just false. People have addressed and answered these concerns since the beginning, and the people who did so were the “people,” who “people these days” like to pretend were just blindly doing what they were told until some really smart guy had the bright idea “let’s, you know, like, think about things.”

The current decline can be traced to many partial causes, but “people started thinking” wasn’t one of them. You can tell because of all the stuff written by people who were thinking since the beginning of Christianity, and the fact that there hasn’t really been a new objection nor a new argument for such an objection since.

This thread is a perfect example. …a good and loving god unleashing evil on his creation. To quote Iron Donkey, “Which essentially makes him not God.”

Yeah, I think you may want to examine that verb “unleash”. That kind of assumes that God set forth the evil, which is not in fact what anyone says happens. Rather, God does not completely shackle all creatures that like to act in opposition to Him. Calling that “God unleashing His evil” would be like saying that, if the US were being invaded, the US government refraining from hitting the invading army with a nuclear bomb is the same thing as the US government “unleashing an evil army upon its citizens.”

 

[Nelka]

I always wondered why Satan was cast down to earth rather than to a different planet where God stopped him from leaving.

Imagine the astronauts landing on that planet.

Maybe it is more of a punishment for Satan to be around us as he didn’t like the idea of us being above the angels and he must feel sick to see/hear us praying to God.

 

[tonyrey]

Which essentially makes him not God. Deism seems self defeating in that way - if there is such thing as a first cause God, then He is Goodness, Existence, etc. He is The Standard, and He lives up to Himself by default.

If there is no standard, there is no God. If there is a standard above God, then God is not God, because for God to be God, nothing can be above Him. If there is no God, there is no standard. The alternatives then are nihilism and benevolent theism, and nihilism has its own problems.

Deism tries to find a middle ground, and at first glance seems tempting, but it ultimately fails exactly because God must be the standard. If you hold omnipotence, then If in fact the claim that if an omnipotent God allows evil then that God must be evil is true, then the deist God is also evil, which is simply a contradiction as what is evil can only be defined by how it compares to a standard, which must be God. If you deny omnipotence, then God isn’t God - it is a consequence of the first cause argument that all things that are are permitted to be so by God.

Or in short, a watchmaker God is no more God than an actual watchmaker - there is no (purely from natural reason, so far as I know) reason why this universe couldn’t have been made by an indifferent being, but if it was then that indifferent being does not have the properties demanded of the First Cause God, and so there must be a first cause God above it (and then you could ask why that God allowed the lesser god to create a world with evil, and if it was a problem when God was the direct creator, it will also be a problem when He is thought to be the indirect creator).

The only way out is to hold that God is omnipotent, and also the perfect standard for what is good, but that we might not understand how that works exactly because we are not the perfect standard for what is good. Which, not exactly surprisingly, is exactly what Christianity teaches. We can ask why evil is allowed, and we can gain some partial insight, even some great insight. But even if we couldn’t or if we don’t like the proposed explanations, it is important to understand that if we are talking about a being so far above ourselves that we only exist because He happens to think it is a good idea right now that we do, and who understands and knows everything that ever was, will, or could be, then we are talking about a being who might have a perspective that motivates Him to act differently than us. That is, just because we can’t see a reason doesn’t mean there isn’t one. And it also doesn’t mean that we won’t grow to understand the reason more later on, even if at the moment we don’t like it. (We are as to God what our rather stupid rebellious teenage selves were to our parents, only more so: we think we know more than we do, that He knows less than He does, and we are constantly surprised to find ourselves wrong on either count.)

The Creator of the universe isn’t as inadequate and indifferent as deists make out. They fail to realise that Love is more fundamental and significant than evil…

 

[tonyrey]

I have read nothing that suggests that Deist god is anything but an illusion, fabricated to intellectually make sense of evil in the most superficial way, offering no hope, no moral direction, but a justification for one’s own complacency and self-absorption.

Deism reduces evil to a mere human convention and lets those who torture and murder others off the hook …

 

[oldcelt]

Many evil and good things do come from our actions, but they can’t be called evil or good unless there is such a thing as evil and goodness. And again, there can be no such thing as goodness (hence evilness) without a good God. And if there is a God, He is the standard for goodness. Saying He’s not a baby sitter doesn’t get around that - He’s there or He’s not, and if He is there, He is absolute goodness. And if He is absolute Goodness, and if allowing evil is evil, then He is evil. Which would be a contradiction.

So either the Deist God doesn’t exist, or it’s not evil to allow evil when you can stop it.

This is actually pretty much just false. People have addressed and answered these concerns since the beginning, and the people who did so were the “people,” who “people these days” like to pretend were just blindly doing what they were told until some really smart guy had the bright idea “let’s, you know, like, think about things.”

The current decline can be traced to many partial causes, but “people started thinking” wasn’t one of them. You can tell because of all the stuff written by people who were thinking since the beginning of Christianity, and the fact that there hasn’t really been a new objection nor a new argument for such an objection since.

Yeah, I think you may want to examine that verb “unleash”. That kind of assumes that God set forth the evil, which is not in fact what anyone says happens. Rather, God does not completely shackle all creatures that like to act in opposition to Him. Calling that “God unleashing His evil” would be like saying that, if the US were being invaded, the US government refraining from hitting the invading army with a nuclear bomb is the same thing as the US government “unleashing an evil army upon its citizens.”

Did the christian God have control of Satan or did He not? Did Satan and his likes magically escape from an omnipotent God? I call that unleashing. You say that your god only let a little bit of evil loose, so, he’s clean.

You assume that god is concerned with goodness and badness if you will, but there is no evidence of that. The standards for good and bad (evil) are man-made and enforced in Deism, because that is what observation tells us. God is the creator.

 

[oldcelt]

The Creator of the universe isn’t as inadequate and indifferent as deists make out. They fail to realise that Love is more fundamental and significant than evil…

Deists absolutely believe that love is more powerful…human love.

 

[SuperLuigi]

The ultimate question for the Christian God…with His powers of omniscience and omnipotence, there is no valid excuse for any involvement with evil.

And just how is God involved in evil?

 

[oldcelt]

Deism reduces evil to a mere human convention and lets those who torture and murder others off the hook …

Your first part is correct, the second is way off. We support the arrest and punishment of criminals as much as anyone.

 

[oldcelt]

And just how is God involved in evil?

Which version of god? The Christian version created an angel who rebelled, broke free, and has been running rampant ever since…or so Christians believe. In other words…he created evil and can’t or won’t control it.

The Deist god began the creation of this universe, but has no involvement with man’s affairs. We are the source of all the evil necessary, and a great deal of good…just not enough.

 

[tonyrey]

Deism reduces evil to a mere human convention and lets those who torture and murder others off the hook

…
Your first part is correct, the second is way off. We support the arrest and punishment of criminals as much as anyone.

That is precisely why Deism is illogical:

An amoral God is an inadequate basis for morality…

 

[tonyrey]

The Creator of the universe isn’t as inadequate and indifferent as deists make out. They fail to realise that Love is more fundamental and significant than evil.

That is yet another reason why they are illogical:

A loveless God is an inadequate explanation of human love.