Why does it say to "worship Mary" in an encyclical?

[Boxcar]

I would rather you said “in the modern understanding of the word”.

“Catholics don’t worship Mary” is an entirely correct statement given the understanding of the word “worship” by those who make the charge.

Come Holy Spirit,come by the means of the Immaculate Heart of Mary your well beloved spouse! the same way that mary became with child, the same way you come to the gifts on the Alta! is there another way?

 

[Thomas62408]

I just looked up the definition of worship on my online dictionary. There is an archaic definition that means, “honor given to someone in recognition of their merit”. I suppose that fits and might satisfy our Protestant friends. I must say, this is really getting to be a tiresome topic and debate. I think we go out of our way to say we honor, or venerate, but do not worship.

I say a daily rosary, and I ask for our Blessed Mother’s help and intercession often. I do not place Our Lady above God. But we are talking about a daughter of God, the Spouse of the Holy Ghost, and the Mother of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Until someone comes up with some kind of “Worship Gauge”, trying to communicate the degrees of reverence given the Mother of God vs the Most Blessed Holy Trinity is not only an exercise in futility, it is a barrier to knowing God, loving God, and serving God.

I do know this. I have a long way to go in perfecting myself and the worship I give God is not even close to what he deserves. Nor is the veneration I offer to Our Lady. Engaging in this debate does not help me get to where I need to be.

I could spend eternity on my knees thanking and praising God for receiving the Eucharist just one time in my life. It would not be sufficient, nor would it make me worthy.

This question, the ensuing and never ending debate, and the unnecessary worry and attention given this subject is a work of the devil.

The question does not even deserve to be answered until the one asking defines how they worship God.

 

[PRmerger]

This question, the ensuing and never ending debate, and the unnecessary worry and attention given this subject is a work of the devil.

I disagree, Thomas. Discussion and debate over religious topics is a worthy and honorable endeavor.

What makes this subject–the use of the word “worship” as it is attached to Our Lady–so diabolical? If it is the “work of the devil” then perhaps we should assign his signature to all questions brought up in these Catholic Answers forum!

 

[Thomas62408]

I disagree, Thomas. Discussion and debate over religious topics is a worthy and honorable endeavor.

What makes this subject–the use of the word “worship” as it is attached to Our Lady–so diabolical? If it is the “work of the devil” then perhaps we should assign his signature to all questions brought up in these Catholic Answers forum!

Because it causes unnecessary anxiety. And because it is impossible to answer without a working definition of worship that has any shared meaning. That is for starters.

Some people lay prostrate before the Blessed Sacrament. Others receive the Eucharist in the hand and don’t go to Confession. Both would call it worship of God.

Until a working definition of worship is established, I see no point in the debate.

This is from the first page of The Imitation of Christ:
What doth it avail thee to discourse profoundly of the Trinity, if thou be void of humility, and consequently displeasing to the Trinity?

 

[PRmerger]

Because it causes unnecessary anxiety.

Well, any of the threads in the CAF might fall into that category! Do you think all of the questions brought up here are the work of the devil?

And because it is impossible to answer without a working definition of worship that has any shared meaning.

I think the discussion of the definition of worship is a good place to start.

Some people lay prostrate before the Blessed Sacrament. Others receive the Eucharist in the hand and don’t go to Confession. Both would call it worship of God.

You bring up an interesting point. There have been multiple discussions about whether it is correct to receive Communion in the hand. This may cause some anxiety in the posters. Do you think such discussions are diabolical?

This is from the first page of The Imitation of Christ:
What doth it avail thee to discourse profoundly of the Trinity, if thou be void of humility, and consequently displeasing to the Trinity?

Amen!

 

[VociMike]

Another point that should always be brought up when we are charged with worshiping Mary is, why in the world would we worship her and then deny it? If we actually think she is worthy of worship (in the Protestant sense) then how can we deny that we worship her? And yet deny it we do, at every chance? Explain how that makes sense. Explain how one can at the same time hold up Mary as worthy of worship, and at the same time deny that worship to one and all.

If Mary is truly deserving of worship (as some Protestants charge us with believing), and we deny that we worship her, aren’t we guaranteeing ourselves a trip to hell?

Said Protestants are at a loss to deal with that unavoidable conclusion.

 

[Thomas62408]

Well, any of the threads in the CAF might fall into that category! Do you think all of the questions brought up here are the work of the devil?

I think the discussion of the definition of worship is a good place to start.

You bring up an interesting point. There have been multiple discussions about whether it is correct to receive Communion in the hand. This may cause some anxiety in the posters. Do you think such discussions are diabolical?

Amen!

I don’t think I said diabolical. That, at least to me, implies malicious intent on the part of the questioner. I did not mean to make any such charge. Although, I am sure there are those who ask this question with malicious intent.

All I am trying to say is that these questions that arise, mostly within ourselves, can over time lead to an undermining of our faith. These are little works of the devil. He is very subtle. Needless worry about how I present my prayers to Our Lady, is not beneficial to me. This can lead to interior questions that are not at all helpful.

And I think you understand that.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t think I said diabolical. That, at least to me, implies malicious intent on the part of the questioner.

“Diabolical” means concerning, or characteristic of the devil. You said that this question is a work of the devil, i.e. diabolical.

I do not think asking questions of a religious nature is a work of the devil.

“Faith seeking understanding” implies a wrestling with ideas. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it’s part of the journey towards holiness.

All I am trying to say is that these questions that arise, mostly within ourselves, can over time lead to an undermining of our faith. These are little works of the devil. He is very subtle. Needless worry about how I present my prayers to Our Lady, is not beneficial to me. This can lead to interior questions that are not at all helpful.

And I think you understand that.

Are you suggesting that there are some religious questions that we should not pursue because they could undermine our faith? If so, how do we know what is a valid questioning and what is "a work of the devil? Does our Church teach this?

 

[Thomas62408]

Another point that should always be brought up when we are charged with worshiping Mary is, why in the world would we worship her and then deny it? If we actually think she is worthy of worship (in the Protestant sense) then how can we deny that we worship her? And yet deny it we do, at every chance? Explain how that makes sense. Explain how one can at the same time hold up Mary as worthy of worship, and at the same time deny that worship to one and all.

If Mary is truly deserving of worship (as some Protestants charge us with believing), and we deny that we worship her, aren’t we guaranteeing ourselves a trip to hell?

Said Protestants are at a loss to deal with that unavoidable conclusion.

That’s a great point, and I believe you and I are on the same wavelength here.

Perhaps if the Protestants believed in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, they might understand.

From this day forward, I am coming out of the closet and admitting that I worship Mary. And I worship the Trinity even more. We are mere creatures given the gifts of thought and speech and we are incapable of communicating with any kind of precision in matters of such great and high importance. The trap that is set, by the evil one, can lead to loss of faith and even despair.

I will say it again. The “worship” I offer to Mary does not come close to the “veneration” she deserves. And my worship of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in the Most Blessed Holy Trinity does not come close to what is necessary. When, and if, I ever get so holy that I think it may become a problem, I will address it then. Enough for the day to watch and pray and seek Our Lady’s intercession.

Does this make sense? Or in my feeble attempt at clarity did I simply muddy the waters a bit more?

The key is the Eucharist. It is the source from which we can begin to unlock the difference in modes and meanings of worship between Protestants and Catholics.

I suppose if I did not have the Eucharist, I might be worried about the Blessed Virgin’s place in my prayer life as well. Add this to the list as to why we should not be ecumenical, but rather seek the conversion of souls.

 

[Bradleyc]

Interesting.

However, I feel that I must now amend my declaration to non-Catholics who accuse me of giving Mary excessive adoration. Instead of my usual, “Catholics don’t worship Mary” I will have to say instead, “Catholics don’t worship Mary in the same way we worship God.”

In our Catechism there seemed to be more emphasis to pray the Rosary and Apostle’s creed more than any other prayer, is there any reference in scripture that would allow praying to anybody other then God?

 

[siamusnomore]

I will say it again. The “worship” I offer to Mary does not come close to the “veneration” she deserves. And my worship of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in the Most Blessed Holy Trinity does not come close to what is necessary. When, and if, I ever get so holy that I think it may become a problem, I will address it then. Enough for the day to watch and pray and seek Our Lady’s intercession. "

Why do you seek Mary’s intercession? Mary is an intercessor between us and God? If so, please explain, or tell me where in the scripture I can find that.

 

[PRmerger]

In our Catechism there seemed to be more emphasis to pray the Rosary and Apostle’s creed more than any other prayer, is there any reference in scripture that would allow praying to anybody other then God?

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim. 2:1–4

If, by “prayer”, we mean intercession, then we are commanded to pray for one another.

If, by “prayer”, we mean worship and adoration, then we must pray to God alone.

 

[PRmerger]

Why do you seek Mary’s intercession? Mary is an intercessor between us and God? If so, please explain, or tell me where in the scripture I can find that.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44). From: catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[Bradleyc]

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim. 2:1–4

If, by “prayer”, we mean intercession, then we are commanded to pray for one another.

If, by “prayer”, we mean worship and adoration, then we must pray to God alone.

Hi PRmerger,
Thank you for your response.
I understand that we should pray for each other, but I guess my question would be more specific to someone that is in heaven, is there scripture reference for us to ask someone in heaven to pray for us and intercede for us?

 

[christian1]

Coming out of the closet and confessing the truth. Finally. Because you are right, either you believe she is worthy of worship and therefore do, or you don’t.

You are taught not to say that you do, yet all your teachings about her inspire nothing less.

It’s no wonder people lay prostrate before her image with the sort of writings given on the devotions.

In my attempt to find the link with the orignal quote I came across another encyclical. Here is a piece of it that I found interesting. Mind you, I’m not done reading the entire thing. Feel free to read it all for yourself.

."(10) And in another place he thus **prays to **her: “. . . Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen, **protect and keep me under your wing **lest Satan the sower of destruction glory over me, lest my wicked foe be victorious against me.”(11)

So much for praying for intercession. Seems now, Mary is **prayed to **and is able to protect.

Perhaps this is another misuse of the english words. However, I disagree with everybody concerning the many interpretations for the word worship (in this particular encyclical). In the original link I provided, there were many words used along the veneration definition. The worship word was interpreted worship and the veneration words were interpreted veneration.

Do you see the problems that would arise from this?

When an apostle bowed before an angel he told him, ‘see thou doest it not, for I am a fellow servant like you’

So Jesus is the Head of the Body and Mary is the neck we learn. Even though, it is the Holy Spirit that is supposed to be the mediator in Christs absence according to Christ. We now must go through Mary to get to Jesus. Now there is an added step in salvation. Unless you tell me that I do not need Mary to be saved, I am under the distinct impression through your encyclicals and doctrines and dogmas that indeed I do.

Is venerating Mary and other saints really necessary for salvation? If not, then am I free not to adore Mary or other Saints? I’m really needing to know. I want to know if I am allowed to worship Christ alone and the Father and regard Mary and the saints as my fellow servants in Christ as the angel informed one apostle. As Jesus proclaimed when told His mother, brother and sisters were there and wanted to speak to Him. Who are my mother brothers and sisters, but those who do the will of My Father in heaven? Why can’t I just follow that? Why MUST I do the rest in order to be saved when Christ made it plain what necessitated salvation? It certainly wasn’t upholding traditions that contradicted scripture. We already know that this is an old sin that the scribes and pharisees were guilty of and Jesus said have no part of it.

I’m very frustrated with the traditions of the Catholic Church that contradict scripture and pretend they don’t.

We don’t pray to her and yet I find you do. We don’t worship her, and yet I find the actions and language surrounding the dogma indeed support worship.

And do I HAVE to call the priest Father? I understand that some people do, but is it another REQUIREMENT in order to remain in the Catholic Church and be saved? I understand that some call them Father as a spiritual father, but is it not Ok for me to only call my spiritual mentor Father, whom I consider is God? Can’t I call him brother, like the apostles who were like fathers and even referred to as fathers were more times called? I never once saw anyone referencing to the apostles as ‘father’ but ‘brother’. Why can’t I call a spiritual leader brother as well as our spiritual leaders were then called?

 

[VociMike]

Why do you seek Mary’s intercession? Mary is an intercessor between us and God? If so, please explain, or tell me where in the scripture I can find that.

Is it right or wrong to pray for others? Is it right or wrong to ask others to pray for you?

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PRmerger,
Thank you for your response.
I understand that we should pray for each other, but I guess my question would be more specific to someone that is in heaven, is there scripture reference for us to ask someone in heaven to pray for us and intercede for us?

“The prayers of a righteous man avails him much.” And who is more righteous than a brother or sister in Christ in Heaven? We are all connected to the Body of Christ, esp. those who have died and are now fully united.

Also, check out Revelations 5:8.

 

[VociMike]

Hi PRmerger,
Thank you for your response.
I understand that we should pray for each other, but I guess my question would be more specific to someone that is in heaven, is there scripture reference for us to ask someone in heaven to pray for us and intercede for us?

Let’s break this down.

1. Do you think it is wrong to ask any Christian to pray for you?
2. Do you think those in heaven can pray?
3. Do you think those in heaven would pray for us if they could?
4. Do you think those in heaven can hear our requests?

 

[christian1]

1. Hence it cannot be doubted that Mary most Holy is far above all other creatures in dignity, and after her Son possesses primacy over all. “You have surpassed every creature,” sings St. Sophronius. “What can be more sublime than your joy, O Virgin Mother? What more noble than this grace, which you alone have received from God”?(52) To this St. Germanus adds: “Your honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation; your greatness places you above the angels.”(53) And St. John Damascene goes so far as to say: “Limitless is the difference between God’s servants and His Mother.”(54)

saint-mike.org/Library/Papal_Library/PiusXII/Encyclicals/Ad_Caeli_Reginam.html

This is the link I had forgot to post it before.

Here, it is embraced that Mary is above all servants of God. But this is contradictory to scripture. Catholic teachings claim they are not contradictory to scripture.

Jesus made it plain who his mother brothers and sisters were. And He never indicated one was above another, but equal in the body of Christ. Catholics have created this position for Mary with equality and no favour taught by Christ and his apostles thorughout the new testament. But you have exalted her above her station as humble servant and made her above all.

The writings compare Mary and Eve. Through Eve the fall of mankind came about. But you forget, that it was through Adam that the sin was passed not Eve.

The fathers bore the sin. That is why, the Father of Jesus had to be perfect and He was, He was God. Mary didn’t need to be without sin and wasn’t. She needed to be of the fallen seed of Adam and she was. That was how God joined the divine with the undivine. He needed a member of the fallen seed to implant His perfect seed. And that is what He used. A member of the fallen seed. But the original sin was not passed to Jesus, because the Father was sinless. In this way, God redeemed fallen mankind. He secured the salvation of the entire human race through a fallen seed not a perfect seed. It was His perfection, the Father of the seed that was required not the perfection of the fallen.

 

[Shin]

Mary is placed above the rest of creation because God desired it. And when God Himself comes down to be born of a woman, you had better expect God to raise that woman up.

But why was she raised up? Because of her humility.

And so it is that it is quite fitting, and I do not understand why people have any difficulty with it. The angels in Heaven are in a hierarchy, some are high, some are low – the same for all mankind who enter Heaven, some are higher, some are lower.

Mary is the Mother of God, it is simple good sense that she has a higher place in Heaven than others. She is still a created being, and however high she is compared to the rest of creation, she is nothing compared to God. This is understood.

I will also add that it is unscriptural for a person outside of the Church to judge scripture and to judge it against Tradition, from which it comes. Scripture is definitively interpreted only by God given authority. Scripture makes this clear.