Why doesn't God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell

[Bradski]

God knows everything that is knowable. The activity of **non-existent **persons does not fit into that category. It is impossible to know nothing.

In your opinion, at what point in a person’s existence does God know everything that is knowable about that person?

 

[oldcelt]

God knows everything that is knowable. The activity of **non-existent **persons does not fit into that category. It is impossible to know nothing!

NB “before” is inapplicable to divine knowledge and activity.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35262

He knows all real things in the past, present, and the future by his knowledge of vision. When God, in his self-consciousness, beholds his infinite operative power, he knows therein all that he, as the main effective cause actually comprehends, i.e., all reality. The difference between past, present, and future does not exist for the divine knowledge, since for God all is simultaneously present.

By the same knowledge of vision, God also foresees the future free acts of the rational creatures with infallible certainty. As taught by the Church, “All things are naked and open to His eyes, even those things that will happen through the free actions of creatures” (Denzinger 3003). The future free actions foreseen by God follow infallibly not because God substitutes his will for the free wills of his creatures but because he does not interfere with the freedom that he foresees creatures will exercise. (Etym. Latin omnis, all + scire, to know.)

I’m sorry Tony, but according to your faith, you are wrong. None of us are ever non-existent to the Christian God.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

This is the false assumption on which your erroneous conclusion rests. God’s people are created innocent. If they end up hell bound that is their personal responsibility. God did not create them hell bound.

Then when do those people make the choices they are responsible for? God continuously creates all of existence at once. God creates the hell-bound person’s soul in hell at the same instant he creates the hell-bound person’s life. We must therefore make all our decisions at once, at the moment we are created. In other words, we can state with certainty that God has already seen all our decisions and in fact we are already either in heaven or hell.

Now, people have said that God simply “sees” what we will choose. However, unless God can see non-existing things, God would have to create us first. However, unless God sees us first, how does he know what to create?

 

[Amandil]

This is the false assumption on which your erroneous conclusion rests. God’s people are created innocent. If they end up hell bound that is their personal responsibility. God did not create them hell bound.

David, I’m sorry but this is incorrect.

Everyone born is guilty of Original Sin.

If not then Christ is not the new Adam and Savior that He said He was.

 

[Aloysium]

In your opinion, at what point in a person’s existence does God know everything that is knowable about that person?

Since this has not had a reply, I thought I’d add my :twocents:

In my existence, God knows me from my conception to my death. He knows all my thoughts, my feelings my choices, and the reasons for those choices. He is infinite compassion.
He exists in eternity. You could say He has known me always, because time is His creation and I exist within creation.
He was with me when I was conceived and He will be with me when I say my final prayer in this life.
In my existence, He was and will be with me then, as He is with me now.
We change; He does not change - His being, love and beauty exist in every place and every time
Once created, I exist in eternity - I am known by God.
Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega–the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come–the Almighty One.”

 

[fhansen]

Then when do those people make the choices they are responsible for? God continuously creates all of existence at once. God creates the hell-bound person’s soul in hell at the same instant he creates the hell-bound person’s life. We must therefore make all our decisions at once, at the moment we are created. In other words, we can state with certainty that God has already seen all our decisions and in fact we are already either in heaven or hell.

Now, people have said that God simply “sees” what we will choose. However, unless God can see non-existing things, God would have to create us first. However, unless God sees us first, how does he know what to create?

This only means that He creates us-it doesn’t mean that He creates us to sin. That choice is ours whether or not He foresees it. If He foreknows nothing then the choice is ours. If He foreknows everything then the choice is still ours. Human free will is simply possible either way. The fact that He knows the beginning from the end before the beginning began in no interferes with or precludes the possibility of humans being responsible for their own actions. And if they’re responsible for their own actions then He is not, in any direct sense. Yes, no creation means no hell-bound creatures. But creation/existence is inherently good and so the only reason for being hellhound lies in ones choices. Justice is not compromised in this way.

 

[MacQ]

This only means that He creates us-it doesn’t mean that He creates us to sin. That choice is ours whether or not He foresees it. If He foreknows nothing then the choice is ours. If He foreknows everything then the choice is still ours. Human free will is simply possible either way. The fact that He knows the beginning from the end before the beginning began in no interferes with or precludes the possibility of humans being responsible for their own actions. And if they’re responsible for their own actions then He is not, in any direct sense. Yes, no creation means no hell-bound creatures. But creation/existence is inherently good and so the only reason for being hellhound lies in ones choices. Justice is not compromised in this way.

Seems to me you’re getting close to “predestination” with all that “foreknowing”. If He “foreknows” what we will choose, it pretty much nullifies the free will and the choice isn’t really ours, and the original (inane) question isn’t so inane after all. Is He just a sadist who takes pleasure in watching the people he “foreknows” will fail? Playing a game with us as pawns?
I think not. I hope not. . Free will implies that we can really choose to take a different path at any given time, and it seems like a loving God would be hoping we would choose rightly…

 

[fhansen]

Seems to me you’re getting close to “predestination” with all that “foreknowing”. If He “foreknows” what we will choose, it pretty much nullifies the free will and the choice isn’t really ours, and the original (inane) question isn’t so inane after all. Is He just a sadist who takes pleasure in watching the people he “foreknows” will fail? Playing a game with us as pawns?
I think not. I hope not. . Free will implies that we can really choose to take a different path at any given time, and it seems like a loving God would be hoping we would choose rightly…

Foreknowledge is the only option for an all-knowing God who exists in eternity. From the Catechism:

**600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
**

 

[tonyrey]

catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35262

I’m sorry Tony, but according to your faith, you are wrong. None of us are ever non-existent to the Christian God.

There is a difference between being in the mind of God and being created by God. Unlike Him we have not existed for all eternity!

The fact remains that the activity of **uncreated **persons is unknowable. Omniscience does not entail having knowledge of no one…

 

[Aloysium]

Then when do those people make the choices they are responsible for? God continuously creates all of existence at once. God creates the hell-bound person’s soul in hell at the same instant he creates the hell-bound person’s life. We must therefore make all our decisions at once, at the moment we are created. In other words, we can state with certainty that God has already seen all our decisions and in fact we are already either in heaven or hell.

Now, people have said that God simply “sees” what we will choose. However, unless God can see non-existing things, God would have to create us first. However, unless God sees us first, how does he know what to create?

People make their choices in time. That is why the moment exists. Here right now is where we determine where we are going. The past is a dead collection of things we have done and that have been done to us. For God, outside of time, all this is Now.

God does not create “hell-bound” people. We decide this ourselves, in time. We do not make all our decisions at once; God unchanging in time, existing in the eternal Now of His Being, sees them all.

We are not yet in heaven or hell. We are in time. Whether you end up in heaven or hell depends on you. God knows the outcome because He transcends time.

Does God need to see us to know what to create? There is something to this, but not in the way that your question is phrased. I am thinking about John the Baptist and our Holy Mother Mary. I believe He creates people to fill a role in the unfolding of His plan. It remains their decision as to how they will play that part. The problem with the past is that it is set in stone, so that if we discuss it, some may think it was predestined. So, let’s imagine some random person, alive and free to choose; suppose this person was created to help others find God. That person may choose sin instead and perhaps post comments on the Internet against God. In doing so, he gets people to think and thereby grow closer to God, fulfilling God’s plan, in spite of his decisions. But instead of going to heaven as he could have, by his own free will, he ends up in hell. See what I’m getting at? Just some random thoughts that came to mind.

 

[oldcelt]

This only means that He creates us-it doesn’t mean that He creates us to sin. That choice is ours whether or not He foresees it. If He foreknows nothing then the choice is ours. If He foreknows everything then the choice is still ours. Human free will is simply possible either way. The fact that He knows the beginning from the end before the beginning began in no interferes with or precludes the possibility of humans being responsible for their own actions. And if they’re responsible for their own actions then He is not, in any direct sense. Yes, no creation means no hell-bound creatures. But creation/existence is inherently good and so the only reason for being hellhound lies in ones choices. Justice is not compromised in this way.

Why is existence inherently good when one is known in advance to heading to eternal suffering?

The choice may be ours, but that is kind of a moot point when the outcome is already known. Sounds like a bookie who already know the outcome of the race. He created that person with full knowledge that they would fail. He created a faulty product and you are trying to absolve Him of all responsibility.
I have to agree with a previous poster…it sounds sadistic.

And aren’t you forgetting that little handicap called original sin. Supposedly we are all born in to sin for something that two people did thousands of years before we were conceived.

 

[oldcelt]

People make their choices in time. That is why the moment exists. Here right now is where we determine where we are going. The past is a dead collection of things we have done and that have been done to us. For God, outside of time, all this is Now.

God does not create “hell-bound” people. We decide this ourselves, in time. We do not make all our decisions at once; God unchanging in time, existing in the eternal Now of His Being, sees them all.

We are not yet in heaven or hell. We are in time. Whether from His seat in eternity, God knows that you are in heaven or hell depends on the decisions you will make, the most important being remorse for the bad things you have done. Be good to others.

Does God needs to see us to know what to create? There is something to this, but not in the way that your question is phrased. I am thinking about John the Baptist and our Holy Mother Mary. I believe He creates people to fill a role in the unfolding of His plan. It remains their decision as to how they will play that part. The problem with the past is that it is set in stone, so that if we discuss it, some may think it was predestined. So, let’s imagine some random person, alive and free to choose; suppose this person was created to help others find God. That person may choose sin instead and perhaps post comments on the Internet against God. In doing so, he gets people to think and thereby grow closer to God, fulfilling God’s plan, in spite of his decisions. But instead of going to heaven as he could have, by his own free will, he ends up in hell. See what I’m getting at? Just some random thoughts that came to mind.

Please see the above post.

 

[MacQ]

Foreknowledge is the only option for an all-knowing God who exists in eternity. From the Catechism:

**600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
**

That passage refers specifically to Christ’s death being part of God’s plan.
Of course He permits acts that flow from our blindness.
To me, that’s different from our responses being predestined. If they were, it would all be pointless.
I think rather, that the events…the acts…he permits, including all the evil that men do, all the tragedies (and joys)…are there for us to respond to, and that He hopes we will choose rightly.

 

[tonyrey]

Since this has not had a reply, I thought I’d add my :twocents:

In my existence, God knows me from my conception to my death. He knows all my thoughts, my feelings my choices, and the reasons for those choices. He is infinite compassion.
He exists in eternity. You could say He has known me always, because time is His creation and I exist within creation.
He was with me when I was conceived and He will be with me when I say my final prayer in this life.
In my existence, He was and will be with me then, as He is with me now.
We change; He does not change - His being, love and beauty exist in every place and every time
Once created, I exist in eternity - I am known by God.
Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega–the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come–the Almighty One.”

The key words are “God knows me from my conception to my death.” Knowledge of an individual with free will is based on the existence of that person. This is not surprising because our power of insight and power of self-control are supernatural. The activity of non-existent material things is predictable but we are made in God’s image and participate in His creativity and originality.

 

[tonyrey]

David, I’m sorry but this is incorrect.

Everyone born is guilty of Original Sin.

If not then Christ is not the new Adam and Savior that He said He was.

“guilty” gives the wrong impression:

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 ** original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.** It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

 

[tonyrey]

Why is existence inherently good when one is known in advance to heading to eternal suffering
The choice may be ours, but that is kind of a moot point when the outcome is already known. Sounds like a bookie who already know the outcome of the race. He created that person with full knowledge that they would fail. He created a faulty product and you are trying to absolve Him of all responsibility.
I have to agree with a previous poster…it sounds sadistic.?

False assumption! The choices of uncreated persons are unknowable.

And aren’t you forgetting that little handicap called original sin. Supposedly we are all born in to sin for something that two people did thousands of years before we were conceived.

You grossly underestimate the reality and power of evil. We are not isolated individuals but members of a community who are deeply affected by what others have done, are doing and will do:

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 ** original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.** It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

How else do you explain the blood-stained history of the human race and the current atrocities in the Middle East?

 

[tonyrey]

Then when do those people make the choices they are responsible for? God continuously creates all of existence at once. God creates the hell-bound person’s soul in hell at the same instant he creates the hell-bound person’s life. We must therefore make all our decisions at once, at the moment we are created. In other words, we can state with certainty that God has already seen all our decisions and in fact we are already either in heaven or hell.

Now, people have said that God simply “sees” what we will choose. However, unless God can see non-existing things, God would have to create us first. However, unless God sees us first, how does he know what to create?

You are imposing human limitations on the Creator of the entire universe…

 

[Aloysium]

Why is existence inherently good when one is known in advance to heading to eternal suffering?

The choice may be ours, but that is kind of a moot point when the outcome is already known. Sounds like a bookie who already know the outcome of the race. He created that person with full knowledge that they would fail. He created a faulty product and you are trying to absolve Him of all responsibility.
I have to agree with a previous poster…it sounds sadistic.

And aren’t you forgetting that little handicap called original sin. Supposedly we are all born in to sin for something that two people did thousands of years before we were conceived.

You either do not read people’s responses, something is impairing your understanding or are you simply trolling.
Your comments have been addressed many times and answered in umpteen different ways.

Revelation 13:8 - All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast – all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

God knowing that His creation was going to sin, sacrificed His Son, the Word by which the cosmos was created. In doing so He redeemed all beings who have free will. This was revealed in the life of our Lord Jesus Christ, that through His death and resurrection, we are saved. He took in all sin, to enable us to know eternal life with Him. The holiest, pure and innocent Lamb, sweat blood at the thought of having to become the sin that we ourselves brought into creation

There are people who chose hell. Their lives are no different, no worse than others who choose love, but this is how they have decided to live.

God knows that you are in heaven, that in your future, you will choose love and come to Him.
I am prophesizing based on what I understand of God’s justice and how you, as you present yourself here compare to the evil I have witnessed.
I am saying this in advance of what will happen. This is not how God, who transcends time, knows you. He knows and loves the entirety of who you are.

He created eternal beings capable of love. Only sin sees this as sadistic because it will burn. What have you got against eternal life, love and joy?

 

[Bradski]

False assumption! The choices of uncreated persons are unknow.

But the choices of a new born baby are? Or is it foetus? Or zygote?

 

[tonyrey]

In your opinion, at what point in a person’s existence does God know everything that is knowable about that person?

Where God - who transcends time and space - is concerned, there are no “points” in a person’s existence. A person either exists or does not exist.