Why Don’t Fundamentalists Call Mary “Blessed”?

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The charity level on this thread is rapidly falling and I will be pruning a number of posts and editing others which have gone off-topic or failed in charity. I will not issue any warnings or suspensions at this time, but this is my first, last, and only warning about staying on topic and remaining charitable.
  1. To my knowledge, there are no iconoclastic “statue smashers” posting on this thread. Inferring that someone is is uncharitable.
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'Nuff said?
 
Yes, thank goodness Michael.

Now, when I was a Baptist, I thought the term “Blessed Mary” or “Blessed Virgin Mary” was a title and not just a reference to Mary being blessed. See what I mean? It was one thing to say that Mary was blessed and another to say “Blessed Mary”.

Of course, the meaning is the same. “Blessed” describes a characteristic of Mary. But, when fundamentalists hear this and read it, they imagine it is a title, similar to calling someone “Father” who is a person of the cloth.

My understanding of Scripture was that we were all brothers and sisters in Christ (as someone has already posted that passage). Therefore, to call someone “Blessed” and someone else “Father” was putting them on a pedestal above this “brother and sisters” relationship between Christians and saints.

Now that I am not a fundamentalist I appreciate and understand the Blessed Virgin Mary’s role in the Christian’s life because I opened my mind to the idea of it and actually studied about it. So, a lot of this is just misunderstanding in terminology and usage of words. But, of course, there’s also the other side that disagrees with the theology of it.

Either way, Catholics and protestants collectively should gravitate towards charity and dialogue and mix that with mutual appreciation for the humanness and frailty of our human natures. I’m saddened to see so much mudslinging which does nothing but cause grief and suffering for all concerned.

Kudos to those with open minds and humble hearts!

Peace…
 
**Joseph was amazed as he saw what was supernatural. He understood, O Virgin, the rain upon the fleece In thy conception without seed. And he understood the bush that burned without fire and was unconsumed, And Aaron’s rod, which blossomed. Indeed, thy betrothed and guardian cried out to the priests: A virgin gives birth, and after the birth remains a virgin. **
**The Kontakia of Romanos, Vol. II, On the Annunciation II **
 
I understand implicitly, why the mention of The Blessed Virgin Mary strikes fear and horror and even disgust into the minds of Fundamentalists, Evangelicals and Protestants in general. They do not have the same understanding of the Communion of Saints. That understanding is absolutely foundational to understanding anything else associated with the way Catholics approach Mary and the Saints.

If you do not believe, that upon the death of the earthly body, a believer goes on to continue in an active spiritual state in Christ’s Body, the one that is being built by Him continually, but believe that you end up in a state of what can only be imagined as spiritual bliss, with no further responsibilities or cares, then you don’t comprehend why Catholics believe they can correspond, so to speak, with the departed Saints, with the Blessed Virgin, through prayer, asking for intercession on our behalf, from where they are in His presence.

We have two completely different mindsets concerning the departed believer. No reconciliation can be obtained if this foundational belief is not shared.

Another HUGE difference in the understanding between the two is the idea of what a Kingdom is. We live in an age where Democracy is all we know. We have a blatant disgust for anything smacking of royalty, pomp and ritual. We have this idea that when we pass from this world, we will be entering into a familiar democratic society, everyone being equal in position, not an actual kingdom as Christ declared.

Christ knew very well what the understanding of a Kingdom was, both to himself and to all he addressed. A little bit of research into history, you will become familiar with how kingdoms work. It would be especially good to study the kingdoms of the Middle East and especially the Kingdoms of Israel, so you will have an understanding of what everyone’s perception was when Christ taught about his coming Kingdom.

It’s a stretch for our Democratic thinking minds, it actually is a little painful, humbling. What do we think Christ is saying when he talks about our reward? Do we think the crowns will not mean anything, or will they have any kind of position attached to them? And if that is the case, which we can only surmise given what Christ himself taught, what does that mean for those who have gone before us, especially those who earned their crowns with their own blood? Those who gave everything for Christ, like his own mother?

Until as a Protestant, you can start to think in the way that Christians have always thought, down through the last two millenia, (sp?) you will never be able to come to an understanding of what it means for a Catholic to pay the uttmost honor and respect to Mary, Mother of Christ, the King of Kings for all ages.

Luke 1:46-49
"And Mary said: “My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave; for behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed. For the Mighty One has done great things for me; and holy is His name.”

Now what do we think Mary is realizing when she exclaims that the Lord has done great things for her, that he has had regard for the humble bondslave and that all generations would call her blessed? Mary was a Jew, she knew what it meant to be the mother of a reigning king of Israel, and her imagination was overwhelmed at the thought of what it would mean to be the mother of the Messiah King of Israel, the One whose reign will have no end, the One whom all Israelites had been looking for since Abraham. When she said that the Mighty One had done great things for her, what do we in complete honestly think she knew?

Why did Elizabeth ask “How has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43 She being a Jew also, knew the position that Mary held, even before Christ had been born into the world. She considered it an honor unworthy of her to even have Mary come to visit her.

To insist that Mary has no position above any other believer, which is what the Fundamentalist, Evangelical mind insists that we think, is really very naive. And it shows a total lack of understanding of the text and any teachings of Christ concerning his Kingdom.

This is not written with any kind of animosity, none whatsoever. I know the struggle with this. It takes grace. But that grace will only come if you are willing to receive it. I asked for that grace through real tears, because I knew the cost of crossing the Tiber.

God Bless,
Jeanette
 
I hope we can all manage to do discuss our differences without aggressively insulting our Protestant brothers and sisters, who, as the Catechism (promulgated by HH Pope John Paul II of happy memory) tells us, "have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272 (Section 818). To NOT do so more than likely offers graver insult to Our Blessed Mother than any ignorance (thus of diminished culpability) about Her might.
 
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RonWI:
Matthew 5: 1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Why is it that only Mary is called Blessed when Jesus teaches that others are Blessed too?
I’m sorry, but I find it a little humorous that you would actually try to use the Beatitudes against Marian Doctrine in this manner. Anyone who follows the Beatitudes is blessed and is what we call the “Communion of Saints”. In fact, before a Saint is canonized by the Church they are “beatified”, at which point they receive the title, guess what? BLESSED! All canonized Saints have received the title “Blessed” before Sainthood.
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RonWI:
If only Mary is to be called Blessed, then Jesus’ response in Luke 11 certainly is curious:

27As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
28He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

This certainly is a round-about way to instruct us that we should refer to his mother as Blessed, but not to others. Now I do not doubt for a minute that most Fundamentalists avoid the issue because they do not want to “give anything” to Catholics. But what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
In this passage Jesus clearly is not addressing the question of what honor we should Mary. Instead, He is correcting the popular mentality that bloodline alone makes us pleasing to God. Jesus is teaching that faith is more important than biological relationship to which Mary would have fully agreed.
 
Jesus is teaching that faith is more important than biological relationship to which Mary would have fully agreed.
This is all I am saying. Mary was blessed because of her faith.

As for my trying “to use the Beatitudes against Marian Doctrine in this manner”, I certainly did not try to do any such thing. After reading this thread, I have no idea what “Marian Doctrine” is. Some say she is an ark; others not. Some say we must “acknowledge” her to get to heaven; others not. Some say Mary is God’s wife; others God’s servant.

The point I was making by quoting the Beatitudes is that Catholics complain that fundamentalists don’t refer to Mary as Blessed even though she is blessed. So why don’t Catholics refer to everyone who is blessed as Blessed? As Jesus taught, whoever hears the word of God and keeps it is blessed. If Catholics are going to pick and choose to whom they apply titles, they should not gripe when others do the same.
 
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RonWI:
This is all I am saying. Mary was blessed because of her faith.

As for my trying “to use the Beatitudes against Marian Doctrine in this manner”, I certainly did not try to do any such thing. After reading this thread, I have no idea what “Marian Doctrine” is. Some say she is an ark; others not. Some say we must “acknowledge” her to get to heaven; others not. Some say Mary is God’s wife; others God’s servant.

The point I was making by quoting the Beatitudes is that Catholics complain that fundamentalists don’t refer to Mary as Blessed even though she is blessed. So why don’t Catholics refer to everyone who is blessed as Blessed? As Jesus taught, whoever hears the word of God and keeps it is blessed. If Catholics are going to pick and choose to whom they apply titles, they should not gripe when others do the same.
We regard Her as the New Eve. In Her fiat, She reversed the refusal of Eve to believe God, to trust Him, to obey Him. She said,“Yes!” That’s why we honor Her above all things, save the Holy Trinity Itself. Her “yes” is the reason we are able to be saved. Now, my refusal to say “yes” to God in the things He asks of me may grieve Him, may incite His Justice and Judgement against me, it may even cause others to stumble and to fall, but my refusal would be nothing compared to Mary’s refusal to do as God asked of HER (ie, to bear within Her the Word, the Logos, God Himself). My assent, my fiat to God’s desires of me likewise can in no way compare to Mary’s assent and fiat, because by that, God became incarnate. So we call Her blessed, as the Archangel Gabriel said we would.
 
I think we may have come to the end of this. I think it’s safe to say that Fundamentalists don’t call Mary Blessed because they don’t feel she’s any more blessed than any other believer. According to the Scriptures, anyone who believes in Christ and keeps his commandments (uhoh, there’s a work, but we’ll save that for another thread) will be called blessed, and this is true also.

Catholics call Mary Blessed because she proclaimed that all generations would, because we know his Word in inspired and if we didn’t call her Blessed, that would make God a liar and we won’t stand for that! But seriously, Mary prophesied this and to my knowledge, the Catholics and the Orthodox are the only ones left in the Body of Christ fulfilling that prophesy in any significant way through the generations. Any Bible Christian really cannot argue with that.

So we have a standoff. Imagine that! 😃 I think it’s safe to say that we will have to agree to disagree on this one of many, I dare say, points of doctrine, discipline and practice.

We all got our adreneline pumped today, which from what I hear, can be good for you in moderation, temperence being a virtue. 😉

God Bless You All, (really, I mean everyone!)
Jeanette
 
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RonWI:
This is all I am saying. Mary was blessed because of her faith.

As for my trying “to use the Beatitudes against Marian Doctrine in this manner”, I certainly did not try to do any such thing. After reading this thread, I have no idea what “Marian Doctrine” is. Some say she is an ark; others not. Some say we must “acknowledge” her to get to heaven; others not. Some say Mary is God’s wife; others God’s servant.
Four Marian Dogmas have already been proclaimed. They are:
  1. Mary is the Mother of God ( Theotokos), proclaimed at the Council of Ephesus in 431.
  2. Mary was Ever Virgin, before, during and after the birth of Jesus, proclaimed in 649.
  3. Mary was immaculately conceived, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX on 8th December 1854.
  4. Mary was assumed into heaven body and soul, proclaimed by Pope Pius XII on 1st November 1950.
    All of these doctrines have done nothing more than reaffirm what he Church has always believed since her inception and to defend from heresy. They have not “changed the rules” as people outside the Church love to accuse us of. In fact, they actually defend Jesus Christ in their own way and not necessarily just His mother.
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RonWI:
The point I was making by quoting the Beatitudes is that Catholics complain that fundamentalists don’t refer to Mary as Blessed even though she is blessed. So why don’t Catholics refer to everyone who is blessed as Blessed? As Jesus taught, whoever hears the word of God and keeps it is blessed. If Catholics are going to pick and choose to whom they apply titles, they should not gripe when others do the same.
We don’t just pick and choose. All who go to heaven are saints, and yes, blessed. However, there are some that have served God in such profound ways that the Church canonizes them and actually gives them the title “Saint”. This is quite a lengthy process that can take hundreds of years. The Church scrutinizes this very carefully and has total authority to do so. For instance, Mother Theresa has recently been beatified and is now know as “Blessed Mother Theresa of Calcutta” upon canonization she will be “Saint Theresa of Calcutta”. Sorry if I came off the wrong way with you. Hope this helps.
 
Now, my refusal to say “yes” to God in the things He asks of me may grieve Him, may incite His Justice and Judgement against me,
I pray that you will believe the words of the Christ:

Joun 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him."

1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Christ has promised that those who “believe” will not suffer God’s wrath. We will avoid God’s wrath because Christ died for us. Yes, we are guilty, but our judgment has been paid by the Lamb.

Your faith saves you from what you deserve. This is the Gospel of Jesus.
 
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RonWI:
I pray that you will believe the words of the Christ:

Joun 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him."

1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Christ has promised that those who “believe” will not suffer God’s wrath. We will avoid God’s wrath because Christ died for us. Yes, we are guilty, but our judgment has been paid by the Lamb.

Your faith saves you from what you deserve. This is the Gospel of Jesus.
You are most kind to to pray for me. I do not know what tradition you hail from, but I accepted Jesus as my Savior and was baptized at the age of seven. I was raised a Southern Baptist, but I converted at the age of 26 to Catholicism. I’m sure we share much in believing in the singularly salvific nature of Christ’s Passion and Death for our sins, for our redemption. We may well share common belief in the notion of sola gratia (affirmed by Trent) and the knowledge that we can add nothing to Calvary (also affirmed by Trent). My understanding of “believe,” as it was used by Our Lord and Savior, however, is inclusive of more than simply a glad hearing of the Gospel and a fiduciary trust in it (though those are certainly initial elements). My understanding of “believe” is to invest the whole of my life in following Christ (and I’m aware that devout Protestant make this “investment” as well) and in obeying Him. We believe that what Protestants call “sanctification” is an essential part of “salvation.” When I spoke of inciting “His Justice and Judgement,” gosh, I though that was a belief of the whole of Christianity, that we have the capacity to be disobedient and refuse His Will. It doesn’t always result in apostacy, but it results in His displeasure and sorrow. We confess our sins to God through the apostolic office of the priesthood, Protestants profess to confess to Him directly, but surely that both of us admit the need for confession implies that we realize the potential for disobedience in ourselves. That’s all I was talking about. What makes YOU fear for my salvation?
 
What makes YOU fear for my salvation?
Your use of the words “Justice” and “Judgment”.

When we sin against God, it surely provokes sorrow. But it does not incite God to inflict what we are owed onto us. The judgment against us (which we deserve) has been paid by Christ. Therefore, we need not fear its infliction on us.

I read your post to suggest that you are less than certain that because of our faith, we avoid God’s wrath – that your actions may provoke God to justice. That is a fearful thought indeed!
 
As for this protestant, we will just have to disagree in agape and pray for each other to grow in Jesus.
 
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IanS:
Four Marian Dogmas have already been proclaimed. They are:
  1. Mary is the Mother of God ( Theotokos), proclaimed at the Council of Ephesus in 431.
  2. Mary was Ever Virgin, before, during and after the birth of Jesus, proclaimed in 649.
  3. Mary was immaculately conceived, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX on 8th December 1854.
  4. Mary was assumed into heaven body and soul, proclaimed by Pope Pius XII on 1st November 1950.
    All of these doctrines have done nothing more than reaffirm what he Church has always believed since her inception and to defend from heresy. They have not “changed the rules” as people outside the Church love to accuse us of. In fact, they actually defend Jesus Christ in their own way and not necessarily just His mother.
So if these are the only four defined Marian dogmas, does that mean I can join the Catholic church and still NOT believe that Mary HAD to say yes in order for anyone to be saved? (something I have read numerous times on this thread) I can’t get passed the fact that God is all powerful/all knowing…if Mary had said no, I think God could have found another way to save the world…whether it be another way altogether …or just simply knowing (omniscient) Mary would say no, and preparing someone He knew would say yes. As for the prophecies, as someone else mentioned, God knew she would say YES, that is why those prophesies exist. Had he known she would say no, the prophecies could have been different. God, in his all-knowing greatness, knew from the beginning the Mary would say Yes, that is why it all fits. But to say she was the only way possible for him to save the world. I just can’t accept this.

So, my question is… I can accept mother of God, ever-virgin, IC, and assumption, but cannot accept that Mary was the only possible way for Salvation… does this present on obstacle to conversion???

Thanks
 
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RonWI:
Your use of the words “Justice” and “Judgment”.

When we sin against God, it surely provokes sorrow. But it does not incite God to inflict what we are owed onto us. The judgment against us (which we deserve) has been paid by Christ. Therefore, we need not fear its infliction on us.

I read your post to suggest that you are less than certain that because of our faith, we avoid God’s wrath – that your actions may provoke God to justice. That is a fearful thought indeed!
No, I was speaking to the vast difference between me and Mary, why She would be regarded as singularly blessed. In terms of an affective outcome, Mary’s obedience had a far greater impact on the world than my obedience would or will have: by Her obedience, the Messiah was born and the world could hope for salvation. Conversely, Her potential disobedience (certainly possible if She possessed free will, like everyone else) could have had unimaginably devasting consequences (I can’t think of a bad enough adjective!), whereas my failings or disobedience (though they certainly anger or grieve God) don’t have as cataclysmically a destructive effect (though they are bad enough). I’ve no idea if you are a man or a woman, but what would you do if your daughter, at the age of 14-15, your little girl-child, unmarried, the apple of your eye, came to you and said,“Mom/Dad, I’m pregnant.” You’d freak, to one degree or another, best case scenario, you’d be outwardly
calm, but hurt and angry on the inside. You ask, “Who’s the father?” and she says,“Well, this is the part where you’re going to want to sit down…” We owe our Lady much, because She risked much.

I was not saying that every sin ends in damnation, but yes, I feel confident that every sin either angers and saddens our God and Father to one degree or another. But then, we Catholics do affirm the possibility (cited in Scripture) of mortal sin, ie, grace and salvation destroying sin…and you Lutherans don’t!🙂 As for how we avoid God’s wrath, we avoid it through what Jesus did for us on Calvary, on the blessed wood of the Cross. So we can agree on that.
 
RyanL’s Wife said:
God knew she would say YES, that is why those prophesies exist.

But SHE didn’t know! That’s where the risk comes in, like it did for Abraham (commanded to sacrifice Issac, he’d no idea the angel would stay his hand and provide a ram) and Moses (a shepherd sent to harangue a pharoh, a living “god”) and any of the other heroes of faith. They didn’t know what they would do, they just took the first little step, then the next, then the next, etc. We’re nowhere told that the Blessed Mother was given any foreknowledge of anything other than sorrow (“and a sword will pierce your heart,” said Simeon). Yet she said yes.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
But SHE didn’t know! That’s where the risk comes in, like it did for Abraham (commanded to sacrifice Issac, he’d no idea the angel would stay his hand and provide a ram) and Moses (a shepherd sent to harangue a pharoh, a living “god”) and any of the other heroes of faith. They didn’t know what they would do, they just took the first little step, then the next, then the next, etc. We’re nowhere told that the Blessed Mother was given any foreknowledge of anything other than sorrow (“and a sword will pierce your heart,” said Simeon). Yet she said yes.
I agree, She didn’t know and Mary did a great and awesome thing by saying “be it done until be according to thy word” or as many like to say “fiat”. However, I still don’t see how this proves that she was absolutely essential in the salvation of man-kind — That God couldn’t have saved us in another way if he had seen fit.

Nevertheless, I am still curious if that is something I HAVE to believe as a Catholic. (see post # 76 for the original question)

Thanks,
RyanL’s Wife
 
RyanL's Wife:
I agree, She didn’t know and Mary did a great and awesome thing by saying “be it done until be according to thy word” or as many like to say “fiat”. However, I still don’t see how this proves that she was absolutely essential in the salvation of man-kind — That God couldn’t have saved us in another way if he had seen fit.

Nevertheless, I am still curious if that is something I HAVE to believe as a Catholic. (see post # 76 for the original question)

Thanks,
RyanL’s Wife
This sure sounds like a question for Ask an Apologist.
 
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