Why evolution doesnt matter.

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Taken away from the rest of what I posted it might seem a bit broad. However, when I hear the various purveyors of entertainment-philosophy, it is quite obvious that if the narrow path is rejected, the wide path to destruction is often followed. Even one anti-theist commented that there are few advantages - one being that you could sleep in on Sundays.
I know, but for all the ridiculousness from the atheist left, there is plenty from the deeply religious liberal side that is not ridiculous. I look at my parish priests and see that they are as prayerful and holy as their conservative priestly counterparts.
 
I have seen similar work saying that it was not plague but smallpox.The high frequency, recent origin, and geographic distribution of the CCR5-Delta32 deletion allele together indicate that it has been intensely selected in Europe. Although the allele confers resistance against HIV-1, HIV has not existed in the human population long enough to account for this selective pressure. The prevailing hypothesis is that the selective rise of CCR5-Delta32 to its current frequency can be attributed to bubonic plague. By using a population genetic framework that takes into account the temporal pattern and age-dependent nature of specific diseases, we find that smallpox is more consistent with this historical role.

Source: Evaluating plague and smallpox as historical selective pressures for the CCR5-Delta32 HIV-resistance allele.
Since smallpox is a virus, like HIV, rather than a bacterium like Yersinia pestis, I would be inclined to go with the smallpox hypothesis rather than the plague hypothesis.

In either case the effect is as you describe.

rossum
Thank you, rossum -

For that information. However, if there’s small pox epidemics in Africa, that changes my statement. Or, if there were smallpox epidemics, when Europeans visited Africa earlier, in large numbers. Oh, it gets complex.

To my understanding, HIV-AIDS is widespread, throughout all of Africa. That, however, might not be an accurate statement. I wonder if a study’s been done, comparing regional histories in Africa of smallpox, and current infestation of HIV-AIDS? I wonder what it showed? Or, what a study like that would show?
 
I know, but for all the ridiculousness from the atheist left, there is plenty from the deeply religious liberal side that is not ridiculous. I look at my parish priests and see that they are as prayerful and holy as their conservative priestly counterparts.
As a comedian once said, if you belong to the far left or the far right, you’ve gone too far. I believe you about prayerful but where does holiness come from? It is from doing the will of God and trusting Him. The Church has room for dialogue but not divisions that render one part liberal and one part conservative. We are all one body in Christ.

Human knowledge is valuable but I hope you see the clear bias that exists about this subject here and elsewhere. The search for truth and proclaiming truth is difficult but when certain interests attach themselves to even a fragment of truth that might benefit them, they can twist it into something it was never meant to be. Evolution has become the underpinning of a strong belief system that is using it as their means to win converts. Any science it may contain is buried under heavy accretions of materialism.

Peace,
Ed
 
Well, I’ve been searching around, and I’ve found some good scientific papers (some of them peer-reviewed) and online books. I hope you enjoy reading them.
Many thanks for your research.
That’s an impressive collection and I will review the on-line materials (and at least read Signature in the Cell).
 
I know, but for all the ridiculousness from the atheist left, there is plenty from the deeply religious liberal side that is not ridiculous. I look at my parish priests and see that they are as prayerful and holy as their conservative priestly counterparts.
I depends on what is means by “deeply religious liberal” … from my many years of interaction with heterodox, liberal and dissenting Catholics, I’d say that the term was a contradiction. If a person is orthodox in faith and adheres to the teaching of the magisterium, I don’t know how the term liberal could apply.
Additionally, holiness is incompatible with teaching errors, rebellion against the Holy See and the spirit of ridicule and distain towards things which are sacred.
A priest having some personal piety is one thing. But his job is to teach the truth and to foster holiness among the flock and that’s a different matter.
 
Question, for those who posit intelligent design as an explanation for the existence of life - this is intelligence as understood in human terms, yes? Could it be, therefore, that the processes that gave rise to human intelligence are at work in the evolution of every other life form the Earth has seen? In other words, is what appears to be evidence of intelligent design actually evidence of the same natural processes that produced human reason? If so, what we think of as human reason and intelligence are deeply rooted in the evolutionary processes that led from the very first life forms to modern life forms, including us.

I guess what I’m asking is, given our evolved intelligence, how do we know that the appearance of design is not an illusion?
 
That is a wonderful question, Sair, and closely related to your statement in post #64 at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6071375#post6071375 (*) By my lights, the whole evolution question is embarrassingly homocentric in a way similar to the former geocentric theory of the cosmos. Isn’t it time we grew into a more expansive view of our place in the Universe??? How can anyone look at a deep field photo from Hubble and believe that Life is not a Force operative throughout Universe? One would think that the functional purpose of Catholicism, along with other religions, is to dwarf minds, whatever else they purports to have as a goal.
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*Can anyone instruct me as to how to substitute the wrod "here" for a link such as I just used? I'd be very grateful.
 
Here is an excellent point from Stenlis, a new member, who posted this in the “Do living dinosaurs disprove evolution?” thread.

“Evolution theory would be invalidated the other way around - if you’d consistently find fossils of modern day animals (say, rabbits or sperm whales) in pre-cambrian strata.”
 
Question, for those who posit intelligent design as an explanation for the existence of life - this is intelligence as understood in human terms, yes? Could it be, therefore, that the processes that gave rise to human intelligence are at work in the evolution of every other life form the Earth has seen? In other words, is what appears to be evidence of intelligent design actually evidence of the same natural processes that produced human reason? If so, what we think of as human reason and intelligence are deeply rooted in the evolutionary processes that led from the very first life forms to modern life forms, including us.

I guess what I’m asking is, given our evolved intelligence, how do we know that the appearance of design is not an illusion?
I think your question includes an assumption that makes it impossible to give a reasonable answer. As you say “given our evolved intelligence” …

If we start with the idea that evolution (a blind, unintelligent, purposeless, essentially random physical process) explains all of nature – then there’s no need for an alternative explanation.

But the evidence for Intelligent Design is supported by the idea that evolutionary processes are not sufficient to explain all of nature – and especially the human intelligence itself.

We can see the difference between things that are planned or designed by intellgence and those which occur through random or unintelligent processes.

If we had some observable examples of highly complex, specified, intelligent beings which actually emerge from random processes, then we could conclude that the design in nature actually emerged from unintelligent forces.

But we do see design in nature and we know that certain levels of complex design are not produced by unintelligent forces.
 
*Can anyone instruct me as to how to substitute the wrod “here” for a link such as I just used? I’d be very grateful.
The way to do it is to copy your URL from the page you want. Then go to your post here on CAF and highlight the word that you want to use (in this case here). While the word is highlighted, click the “Insert Link” icon on the toolbar (it’s a globe with a chain-link right under the smiley).
Then paste your URL in the pop-up and click Ok.
 
Question, for those who posit intelligent design as an explanation for the existence of life - this is intelligence as understood in human terms, yes? Could it be, therefore, that the processes that gave rise to human intelligence are at work in the evolution of every other life form the Earth has seen? In other words, is what appears to be evidence of intelligent design actually evidence of the same natural processes that produced human reason? If so, what we think of as human reason and intelligence are deeply rooted in the evolutionary processes that led from the very first life forms to modern life forms, including us.

I guess what I’m asking is, given our evolved intelligence, how do we know that the appearance of design is not an illusion?
If the mind of man differs in degree only from the mind of anthropoid apes, then we can say with Darwin that the human mind is the product of biological evolution. Darwin worried though, in his Notes, that we might not be able to trust our judgments since the mind arose as it did by chance events and natural selection. Darwin’s worry was genuine, because according to his own theory, evolution of the human mind, (as well as evolution in general) could have taken a different course. In such a case, what would the human mind be like if it is contingent on natural selection?

The same considerations apply to moral values, as to what is good and evil. What we consider good or evil, according to the extreme Darwinian scheme, is judged according to the “moral sense” as it evolved in the survival of the fittest scheme. There is no objective basis for good and evil in Darwinism. Our values might be very different if evolution took a somewhat different course. The upshot is that in an extreme or materialist version of Darwinism, there can be no ground for objective truth or objective moral values. All is relevant to an evolutionary process lacking any metaphysical realities, such as essences, efficient cause, finality, design, and so on.

On the other hand, the human intellect cannot be a product of evolution or biological processes. If the intellect was a product of natural processes then it would be a material or physical thing, and as such it could not potentially know all things. It would be limited to the immediate and particular as is sense knowledge.

Because the intellect can know universals, immaterial realities, and reflect back on itself it must differ radically from the mind of the anthropoid apes and higher animals, whose cognitive abilities are limited to the functions of external and internal senses that know only particular things in their appearances only. The human intellect must be a spiritual potency or power.

Moral judgments have an objective basis in the natural moral law, a reality about human nature that Darwin was not about to admit. His theory of the evolution of the moral sense is used to supplant the natural moral law basis of moral judgments.

Extreme Darwinism cannot explain or admit to absolute truth, or objective moral values that apply to all humans.
 
If the mind of man differs in degree only from the mind of anthropoid apes, then we can say with Darwin that the human mind is the product of biological evolution. Darwin worried though, in his Notes, that we might not be able to trust our judgments since the mind arose as it did by chance events and natural selection. Darwin’s worry was genuine, because according to his own theory, evolution of the human mind, (as well as evolution in general) could have taken a different course. In such a case, what would the human mind be like if it is contingent on natural selection?

The same considerations apply to moral values, as to what is good and evil. What we consider good or evil, according to the extreme Darwinian scheme, is judged according to the “moral sense” as it evolved in the survival of the fittest scheme. There is no objective basis for good and evil in Darwinism. Our values might be very different if evolution took a somewhat different course. The upshot is that in an extreme or materialist version of Darwinism, there can be no ground for objective truth or objective moral values. All is relevant to an evolutionary process lacking any metaphysical realities, such as essences, efficient cause, finality, design, and so on.

On the other hand, the human intellect cannot be a product of evolution or biological processes. If the intellect was a product of natural processes then it would be a material or physical thing, and as such it could not potentially know all things. It would be limited to the immediate and particular as is sense knowledge.

Because the intellect can know universals, immaterial realities, and reflect back on itself it must differ radically from the mind of the anthropoid apes and higher animals, whose cognitive abilities are limited to the functions of external and internal senses that know only particular things in their appearances only. The human intellect must be a spiritual potency or power.

Moral judgments have an objective basis in the natural moral law, a reality about human nature that Darwin was not about to admit. His theory of the evolution of the moral sense is used to supplant the natural moral law basis of moral judgments.

Extreme Darwinism cannot explain or admit to absolute truth, or objective moral values that apply to all humans.
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If the mind of man differs in degree only from the mind of anthropoid apes, then we can say with Darwin that the human mind is the product of biological evolution. In such a case, what would the human mind be like if it is contingent on natural selection?
Perhaps it would be like it is - we have no real way of knowing if we could have evolved differently. Supposing that populations of Homo sapiens neanderthalus had survived. We might be able to compare notes about how they saw the world vs how we see the world, but it would still give us a very incomplete picture of the possibilities for mind evolution.
The same considerations apply to moral values, as to what is good and evil. What we consider good or evil, according to the extreme Darwinian scheme, is judged according to the “moral sense” as it evolved in the survival of the fittest scheme. There is no objective basis for good and evil in Darwinism. Our values might be very different if evolution took a somewhat different course.
Yes, quite.
The upshot is that in an extreme or materialist version of Darwinism, there can be no ground for objective truth or objective moral values. All is relevant to an evolutionary process lacking any metaphysical realities, such as essences, efficient cause, finality, design, and so on.
That depends upon how you define objective truth. The scientific method is concerned entirely with metaphysically objective phenomena. What you are talking about are metaphysically subjective realities, dependent for their existence upon experience. If our minds, and therefore our experiences, had evolved differently, our subjective realities would in all likelihood be different.
On the other hand, the human intellect cannot be a product of evolution or biological processes. If the intellect was a product of natural processes then it would be a material or physical thing, and as such it could not potentially know all things. It would be limited to the immediate and particular as is sense knowledge.
Because the intellect can know universals, immaterial realities, and reflect back on itself it must differ radically from the mind of the anthropoid apes and higher animals, whose cognitive abilities are limited to the functions of external and internal senses that know only particular things in their appearances only. The human intellect must be a spiritual potency or power.
You really want this to be true, I see - it’s hard to shuck the trappings of anthropocentrism. However, the growing body of cognitive research on both humans and other animals increasingly suggests that the differences are of degree, rather than kind; that our enhanced cognitive abilities have a physical basis, and that they evolved within the context of human social interaction. Our intelligence is a peculiarly human trait, not a universal phenomenon, and therefore our understanding of the world around us is filtered through our human senses and experience.
Moral judgments have an objective basis in the natural moral law, a reality about human nature that Darwin was not about to admit. His theory of the evolution of the moral sense is used to supplant the natural moral law basis of moral judgments.
Extreme Darwinism cannot explain or admit to absolute truth, or objective moral values that apply to all humans.
I see your strawman and raise you some commentary. I think you’ll find that what you call ‘extreme Darwinism’ is a sociopolitical rather than a scientific construct, tending to make its presence felt in things like eugenics, Nazism and nihilism. The simplistic understanding of evolutionary theory as mere survival of the fittest leads to the idea that ruthless competition is the only governing principle at work, and ignores the evolutionary benefits of things like cooperation and altruism. There is no ‘natural moral law’ that governs the behaviour of all animals in the world, one that was there all along just waiting for us to discover it. Morality is a metaphysically subjective phenomenon, with its basis in the evolution of humans as social animals.
 
Perhaps it would be like it is - we have no real way of knowing if we could have evolved differently. Supposing that populations of Homo sapiens neanderthalus had survived. We might be able to compare notes about how they saw the world vs how we see the world, but it would still give us a very incomplete picture of the possibilities for mind evolution.
I used the word “mind”, since Darwin and modern science uses the term. However, I dislike using the term because modern science is very sloppy and “unscientific” about its use. It is used by researchers to cover very different cognitive abilities, abilities of a different order within man, as well as animal consciousness and knowledge. The necessary distinctions and differences get glossed over with the sloppy use of “mind”.

You are still presuming the human mind has evolved. I specifically deny that the human intellect could possibly be a product of evolution. Hence, hypothetical comparisons with modern humans and Neanderthals is not relevant to my point.
That depends upon how you define objective truth. The scientific method is concerned entirely with metaphysically objective phenomena. What you are talking about are metaphysically subjective realities, dependent for their existence upon experience. If our minds, and therefore our experiences, had evolved differently, our subjective realities would in all likelihood be different.
I said nothing that would indicate “metaphysically subjective realities”. I was speaking of metaphysical realities that exist independently of the knowing mind.

You might want to clarify what you mean by “subjective realities” and how that relates to the external world.
You really want this to be true, I see - it’s hard to shuck the trappings of anthropocentrism. However, the growing body of cognitive research on both humans and other animals increasingly suggests that the differences are of degree, rather than kind; that our enhanced cognitive abilities have a physical basis, and that they evolved within the context of human social interaction.
This is the Darwinian assumption articulated in the Descent of Man. It is an assumption that guides much of modern cognitive research and interpretations of its data. However, the research and/or the conclusions are often less than scientifically rigorous. I will confidently say that the data is open to different interpretations and that the data better supports the position of the human intellect and conceptual thinking being radically different in kind from animal sense knowledge.
Our intelligence is a peculiarly human trait, not a universal phenomenon, and therefore our understanding of the world around us is filtered through our human senses and experience.
We begin with sense knowledge of the phenomenal reality, but our understanding is of a higher order, it ultimately grasps the universal characteristics of particular things.
I see your strawman and raise you some commentary. I think you’ll find that what you call ‘extreme Darwinism’ is a sociopolitical rather than a scientific construct, tending to make its presence felt in things like eugenics, Nazism and nihilism.
There is no strawman on my part. You are misinterpreting or wrongly assuming what I meant by “extreme Darwinism.” Extreme Darwinism, as I intended the expression, refers to Charles Darwin’s interpretation of all of nature, including the mind of man, through a philosophical materialism, which led to some extreme or radical conclusions on his part.
The simplistic understanding of evolutionary theory as mere survival of the fittest leads to the idea that ruthless competition is the only governing principle at work, and ignores the evolutionary benefits of things like cooperation and altruism. There is no ‘natural moral law’ that governs the behaviour of all animals in the world, one that was there all along just waiting for us to discover it.
Here again, you are misrepresenting what I said. I never said there was a natural moral law that governed animal behavior. I was speaking strictly of human behavior. Perhaps your misunderstanding is due to your tendency to equate humans with other animals as if there were no real differences.

“Altruism” in reference to animal behavior is an anthropomorphism. It’s a Darwinian anthropomorphism designed to close the gap between animal and human behavior. However, animals act from nature and instinct and do not exhibit true moral behavior, altruistic, or otherwise. Moral behavior proceeds from rational choice or free will.
Morality is a metaphysically subjective phenomenon, with its basis in the evolution of humans as social animals.
This is an example of the extreme Darwinism I was talking about. It is grounded on a philosophical or metaphysical materialism through which it theorizes about evolution.

This kind of Darwinism, which you seem to adhere to, transgresses the limits of methodological naturalism and wrongly believes that methodological naturalism necessarily implies a philosophical naturalism. The ideology is taken for science.
 
I depends on what is means by “deeply religious liberal” … from my many years of interaction with heterodox, liberal and dissenting Catholics, I’d say that the term was a contradiction.
No more a contradiction than the term “deeply religious conservative.”
 
I used the word “mind”, since Darwin and modern science uses the term. However, I dislike using the term because modern science is very sloppy and “unscientific” about its use. It is used by researchers to cover very different cognitive abilities, abilities of a different order within man, as well as animal consciousness and knowledge. The necessary distinctions and differences get glossed over with the sloppy use of “mind”.
My understanding is that it is used collectively to describe the internal experiences of sentient beings.
You are still presuming the human mind has evolved. I specifically deny that the human intellect could possibly be a product of evolution. Hence, hypothetical comparisons with modern humans and Neanderthals is not relevant to my point.
All cards on the table, I see ample evidence to suggest that the human mind is an evolved entity, and none that necessarily demonstrates otherwise. There’s no doubt, though, that denial of evolutionary relationships goes hand in hand with anthropocentrism, but I’ll come back to that later. The fact that Neanderthals were a subspecies of Homo sapiens makes them biologically human, even if they were culturally and physically distinct from modern humans. I mentioned them as indicating the possibility that human minds could possibly have followed a different evolutionary path than what they have done.
I said nothing that would indicate “metaphysically subjective realities”. I was speaking of metaphysical realities that exist independently of the knowing mind.
You might want to clarify what you mean by “subjective realities” and how that relates to the external world.
Metaphysically objective phenomena exist independently of experience; metaphysically subjective phenomena depend upon experience for their existence - they are not entities that exist in the world outside sentient minds.
We begin with sense knowledge of the phenomenal reality, but our understanding is of a higher order, it ultimately grasps the universal characteristics of particular things.
Or so we suppose.
Here again, you are misrepresenting what I said. I never said there was a natural moral law that governed animal behavior. I was speaking strictly of human behavior. Perhaps your misunderstanding is due to your tendency to equate humans with other animals as if there were no real differences.
If there is a natural moral law that exists independently of human subjectivity, it applies to all of nature. As to the differences between humans and other animals, this is an arbitrary distinction - unless you seriously believe that the differences between humans and chimpanzees are greater than the differences between, say, elephants and mice.
“Altruism” in reference to animal behavior is an anthropomorphism. It’s a Darwinian anthropomorphism designed to close the gap between animal and human behavior. However, animals act from nature and instinct and do not exhibit true moral behavior, altruistic, or otherwise. Moral behavior proceeds from rational choice or free will.
The trouble with this criticism is that it cuts both ways - anthropocentrism can be just as blinding as anthropomorphism. However, increasing research reveals enough behavioural similarities between humans and other social animals (social organisation, bonding, care for young and infirm, structured play) that we must allow either that other animals are more intelligent and sophisticated than we supposed, or that humans are more subject to habit and instinct than many would like to admit.
 
My understanding is that it is used collectively to describe the internal experiences of sentient beings.
This is not correct. It’s use, or rather misuse, covers non-sentient experiences of the human intellect, as well.
I mentioned them as indicating the possibility that human minds could possibly have followed a different evolutionary path than what they have done.
One of the fundamental problems here concerns the definition and nature of man as a “rational animal.” Darwin effectively re-defined man as a brute animal and thereby profoundly muddied the waters up to the present.

Indications of rationality or abstract thinking, properly understood, can be found with species other than Homo sapiens sapiens. The evidence includes certain kinds of tools. What I consider man, or properly human, i.e. rational animal, pre-dates the rise of modern man.
Metaphysically objective phenomena exist independently of experience…
The problem here, as I see it, is your use of the term “sentient minds.” Sentience properly refers to the capacity for sense knowledge. This capacity man has in common with other animals. However, not all knowledge is of the kind produced by the external and internal senses. Sense knowledge in man provides the material for conceptual thinking, which is of a completely different metaphysical order. One can label this types of knowledge as perceptual thinking and conceptual thinking.
Or so we suppose.
A necessary supposition. The intellect understands things divested of an particular notes. This is the universal connotation of abstract concepts. For example, we know “triangleness” which applies to all triangles, regardless of their particular size, color, location, and so on.
If there is a natural moral law that exists independently of human subjectivity, it applies to all of nature.
The natural moral law is grounded in human nature. Hence it is specific to human nature and does not apply to all of nature. The natural world is bound by the physical laws that preside over nature. Nature acts according to these laws. In contrast, since man has an intellect and free will he chooses his acts. Man can act without his acts being pre-determined by antecedent events.

Man can reflect and determine the fundamental principles of what is good or evil according to his nature. For example, the law of man’s nature accounts for such facts that all societies have prohibited murder. Societies only disagree as to what types of situations are unjustified homicide.

Human acts that are contrary to the natural law are considered immoral because they are contrary to the objective good of the individual as a person. Animals, on the other hand, are not persons, they act from instinct and limited learning, and hence their acts do not have moral significance because they lack free-will. Human rights are based on the natural moral law, fundamental rights such as the right life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Animals do have inherent and unalienable rights such as the “right to life.” Otherwise, we could never eat animals, PETA arguments notwithstanding.

If human beings did not have inherent and inalienable rights grounded in the natural moral law we could never say that slavery is objectively wrong, or that aggressive wars are objectively immoral. We would only be expressing a personal preference much like individual tastes in music or art.

Was the Holocaust objectively immoral? If man differs only in degree from the apes and other animals then the Holocaust in no more “immoral” than is killing chickens. This is a logical conclusion from the extreme Darwinian perspective. Curiously, Darwinism seems to allow for the opposite conclusion as well.

That is, “ethicist” Peter Singer follows extreme Darwinism to its logical conclusion on the side of affording the same “rights” to animals as humans have. He even speculates that chickens might even be persons, also. This raises the prospect, as writer Newkirk pointed out in the Washington Post (June 2, 1986), that the greatest mass murderer in history was not Ghengis Khan, Stalin, or Hitler, but Colonel Sanders. “Six million people died in concentration camps, but 6 billion broiler chickens will die in slaughterhouses.” (See 50 Questions on the Natural Law by Charles Rice)
As to the differences between humans and other animals, this is an arbitrary distinction
It is one thing to consider how much man’s body differs from the anthropoid apes and higher animals, but it is quite another matter to distinguish how his intellectual capacities differ. Man is not his biology. He cannot be reduced to a completely physical being. In this latter sense, man (rational animal) differs so significantly from other animals that he should be classified in a kingdom by himself
…we must allow either that other animals are more intelligent and sophisticated than we supposed, or that humans are more subject to habit and instinct than many would like to admit.
Animal behavior exhibited under laboratory and experimental conditions is often merely an artifact. Nonetheless, animal intelligence in the wild always amazes me. However, the critical difference between man and other animals is a matter of the real difference between perceptual thinking and conceptual thinking. Non-human animals do not exhibit conceptual thinking. Conceptual thinking allows for propositional speech, which no animal possesses. Hence, placing man in strict continuum with other animals is only accomplished by glossing over the real differences. And this effort entails the dubious and sloppy use of the term “mind” by scientific researchers.
 
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