Why fear purgatory?

[Shin]

‘A person may say I am not much concerned how long I stay in purgatory, provided I may come to eternal life. Let no one reason thus. Purgatory fire will be more dreadful than whatever torments can be seen, imagined, or endured in this world. He who is afraid now to put his finger into the fire, does he not fear lest he be then all buried in torments for a long time?’

St. Caesarius of Arles

‘If, during life, we have been kind to the suffering souls in purgatory, God will see that help be not denied us after death.’

St. Paul of the Cross

 

[TheQuestioner]

Here’s the difference between you and I. You seem to see God as some sort of overlord and we are merely peons who are subject to his gift-giving and gift-taking.

On the contrary, we are given unique gifts because God knows we in of ourselves have a uniqueness that makes us the only ones capable of making use of these gifts. To demean these gifts and not take pride in them would actually be an insult to the giver.

hmmmm…I’m beginning to see something here as to why you think the way you do. You seem to be ignorant of a truth that both me an Student know. If you would please read the link I will provide, it will explain why Student and I said that you cannot boast of your gifts (as they are gifts).

From the Council of Trent

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

and from This Rock Magazine

catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp

From Trent

“The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient [Page 33] grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.”

From This Rock

He sends you an actual grace, say, in the form of a nagging voice that whispers, “You need to repent! Go to confession!” You do, your sins are forgiven, you’re reconciled to God, and you have supernatural life again (John 20:21–23). Or you say to yourself, “Maybe tomorrow,” and that particular supernatural impulse, that actual grace, passes you by. But another is always on the way, God never abandoning us to our own stupidity (1 Tim. 2:4).

So then, the point is that in a sense yes, God is the teacher, but you can only learn as much as He wishes to show you. We are not saved by faith or works but by grace, which is a free gift of God. Thus, you cannot even conceive of God, or even conceive of ever following Him unless God grants you the grace to do so. At that point, all you can say is “yes” and go along with what God calls you to do (repent), or say “no” and keep living in sin till He calls you again. This is why we are telling you that you cannot boast over your sister’s friends. You’ve really done little work other than say “yes” (in reality that is the only work that humans can do), and the rest is done by God. So really, you have no cause to boast because you said yes, because even the ability to say yes in and of itself (free will) is given to you by God.

We are not therefore like slaves receiving scraps from our masters if you prefer to not think of us as such, but like children who receive every single grace and blessing from our Father, without whom we would die. Literally every heartbeat is a gift of God. Thus, the strength or gifts God gives you are not only given but upheld by God. He makes a conscious effort to maintain them, and if ever He even stopped thinking about any single one of them they would disappear in a flash. Suddenly your faith, or your intelligence, or your strength or your ability to move or even any trace of your existence would be gone.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Good show!

hmmmm…I’m beginning to see something here as to why you think the way you do.

Taken out of context – if not in context – this is a great thing for me to read!

I write it that way because, for the reasons I mentioned before, I have not concentrated enough on the actual debate to have useful addition to it. So I skim the new posts and jump on key phrases like this and decide whether to be happy or not. Thus I’m a bit of a drive-by poster.

Whatever the issue is, if we can understand each other’s position, then IMO we can offer up the air of disagreement as self-mortifying, and that can’t be a Bad Thing, can it?

Maybe I jumped a bit logically, but I like to see anything that sounds like previously disagreeing parties agreeing, or at least finding respect for each others’ positions. :clapping:

Alan

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Observe that God accepted Abraham’s intercession - he agreed that if there were ten righteous people, he would spare the city. It just turned out that there were not ten righteous people. But if there had been, the city would have been saved due to Abraham’s intercession.

Also, you can see that there is a shift: Abraham interceded for the righteous; Jesus died for the unrighteous and opened the doors for the saints who came after him to intercede for the unrighteous.

Or you could interpret it another way and say that God already knew how naive Abraham was. Surely with God being all-knowing, he knew the hardness of the hearts of the ones in those damned cities.

So as long as they don’t experience a miraculous epiphany that lets them be open to the truth, there is nothing I can do nor see how anyone could be gullible enough to think they can.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

hmmmm…I’m beginning to see something here as to why you think the way you do. You seem to be ignorant of a truth that both me an Student know. If you would please read the link I will provide, it will explain why Student and I said that you cannot boast of your gifts (as they are gifts).

Look I am not denying the source and the debt I owe to God for these signals. However, I don’t see how one can’t both be proud of what I have learned by following these signals and at the same time, give glory to the God who gave these signals to me in the first place. I congratulate God first for giving me the signal and second, I congratulate myself for choosing to follow it. I can’t understand how these are incompatible.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Imagine it’s the Last Judgement, and you see these people being judged… they realize all their sins, and all the ways they have ignored God… and they are filled with absolute despair, and are condemned to hell forever and ever. In a billion years, they would still be there, suffering in ways that no one suffers on earth, regretting their sins but not being able to repent.

How can we possibly take pleasure in this?

The same way I can take pleasure in knowing bastards like Hitler are in hell. Some people are so deplorable in their beliefs that they don’t deserve sympathy.

In fact, if you were to give them that sympathy in real life, you’ll open yourself dangerously to their exploitation.

If you see a person who is not willing to turn to God, isn’t that the greatest tragedy? St John Vianney wept for sinners… ridiculing them or feeling superior is not only lack of humility, it is lack of charity.

Charity for people like that is only wasted and being humble in the face of such egotists will only serve to inflate their heads further. Again, cast not your pearls before swine. I wouldn’t waste my tears. (Then again, mine dried out years ago figuratively speaking but that’s another story.)

In addition, are we not all sinners? If I stood before God right now, I would see that I only deserve hell… and that I haven’t done much good in my life, but have done much evil. We are all poor sinners in the eyes of God.

We are all sinners and everyone deserves hell if they don’t repent. However, that doesn’t mean one can not claim to be more righteous than the other. Surely you don’t see yourself in the same deplorable league as let’s say… a terrorist or a child molester?

We have nothing to be proud of, we (at least I) are in no way better than the non believers. The difference is that we know the truth, and they don’t… but how much are we doing with that truth? are we bearing fruit? If we don’t bear fruit, we’ll be like branches that are cut off.

The problem comes when those branches were already cut off in the first place. We may know the truth but what good is that around people who care less about it and only about attitude? Its immature true, but its certainly effective in keeping things out of their heads.

 

[Student09]

The same way I can take pleasure in knowing bastards like Hitler are in hell. Some people are so deplorable in their beliefs that they don’t deserve sympathy.

In fact, if you were to give them that sympathy in real life, you’ll open yourself dangerously to their exploitation.

First, we don’t know that Hitler is in hell. It’s extremely likely, yes, but the Church says we can’t know this for certain. If he’s somehow not in hell, he’s in Purgatory (see, I’m still on topic!) and will probably (this is speculation, of course) be there until the end of the world.

There is a huge difference between sympathy and charity. Sympathy is a human emotion. Charity is a supernatural virtue infused into the soul by God.

There doesn’t seem to be much point in continuing to debate this. I have noticed that, while I and other posters like Monica and Questioner have provided support for our arguments from the Bible, Church teaching and the saints, you have not provided anything except your own opinion. I will continue to believe in what the Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church and the saints have taught, and you can believe whatever you want. God bless.

 

[Monica4316]

The same way I can take pleasure in knowing bastards like Hitler are in hell. Some people are so deplorable in their beliefs that they don’t deserve sympathy.

wow I disagree 1 Cor. 13 says that love does not delight in evil… there’s absolutely nothing good about someone rejecting God and going to hell. It could very easily be us. God doesn’t take pleasure in casting people into hell… He grieves for every lost soul. I think, so should we.

The devil once tried to deceive St Faustina by telling her this:

When I went, in my thoughts, to the chapel, my spirit was plunged into even greater darkness. Total discouragement came over me. Then I heard Satan’s voice; “See how contradictory everything is that Jesus gives to you: He tells you to found a convent, and then He gives you sickness; He tells you to set about establishing this Feast of Mercy while the whole world does not at all want such a feast. Why do you pray for this feast? It is so inopportune.” My soul remained silent and, by an act of will, continued to pray without entering into conversation with the Spirit of Darkness. Nevertheless, such an extraordinary disgust with life came over me that I had to make a great act of the will to consent to go on living…And again I heard the tempter’s words… by an act of will, I began to pray, or rather, submitted myself to God, asking Him interiorly not to abandon me at this moment. It was already eleven o’clock at night, and there was silence all around. The sisters were all asleep in their cells, and my soul alone was struggling with great exertion. **The tempter went on: “Why should you bother about other souls? You ought to be praying only for yourself. As for sinners, they will be converted without your prayers. I see that you are suffering very much at this moment. I’m going to give you a piece of advice on which your happiness will depend: never speak about God’s mercy, because they deserve just punishment…”…**Finally the tempter went away and I, exhausted, fell asleep immediately. (1498)
(The next morning) Satan gained nothing by tempting you, because you did not enter into conversation with him. Continue to act in this way. You gave Me great glory by fighting so faithfully. Let it be confirmed and engraved on your heart that I am always with you, even if you don’t feel My presence at the time of battle. (1499)

From God’s perspective, things are very different. As Christians, we should try our best to have God’s perspective

In fact, if you were to give them that sympathy in real life, you’ll open yourself dangerously to their exploitation.

Nonetheless, we should show sympathy. It says in Scripture that a gentle answer drives away wrath, and that we should be good to those who hate or persecute us, and pray for them. (the beatitudes)

Charity for people like that is only wasted and being humble in the face of such egotists will only serve to inflate their heads further. Again, cast not your pearls before swine. I wouldn’t waste my tears. (Then again, mine dried out years ago figuratively speaking but that’s another story.)

I don’t think that charity is ever wasted. Even if the person rejects it, God sees.

We are all sinners and everyone deserves hell if they don’t repent. However, that doesn’t mean one can not claim to be more righteous than the other. Surely you don’t see yourself in the same deplorable league as let’s say… a terrorist or a child molester?

I don’t know I don’t think I’m much better, considering my sins. My sins are just more hidden.

The problem comes when those branches were already cut off in the first place. We may know the truth but what good is that around people who care less about it and only about attitude? Its immature true, but its certainly effective in keeping things out of their heads.

Initially, ALL branches are cut off. We are born in original sin… it’s only by grace that we come to know God. Our Lady of Fatima said that many go to hell because no one prays and offers sacrifices for them. If we see people going to hell, we should try our best to help them be saved, and pray for them. If we dont’ do this, we will be partly responsible for their damnation.

God bless

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

First, we don’t know that Hitler is in hell. It’s extremely likely, yes, but the Church says we can’t know this for certain. If he’s somehow not in hell, he’s in Purgatory (see, I’m still on topic!) and will probably (this is speculation, of course) be there until the end of the world.

Sorry but a little math using the Catechism will yield you a different result.

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Last time I checked, Hitler shot himself in the head. What proof do you have that he repented down to such a pathetic moment?

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

The underlined parts are the grave crimes of that Nazi bastard. He is guilty of deliberately defrauding Jews via propaganda and murdering six million of them via gas chambers and concentration camps. All of these he did with full knowledge, deliberate consent, and furthermore its quite clear from his actions that he showed no remorse whatsoever.

By what evidence do you still cling on to the notion that such a vile individual is qualified to be in Purgatory? (See I’m on topic as well )

There doesn’t seem to be much point in continuing to debate this. I have noticed that, while I and other posters like Monica and Questioner have provided support for our arguments from the Bible, Church teaching and the saints, you have not provided anything except your own opinion. I will continue to believe in what the Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church and the saints have taught, and you can believe whatever you want. God bless.

Excuse me but your quotes mean nothing if there’s no logic in them. Alas, if its citations you want, I’m surprised all of you neglect my reference to Matthew 6:7 (if the Catechism quotes don’t seem enough for you).

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Ah, Lost Wanderer, here I have to disagree with you completely.

Sorry but a little math using the Catechism will yield you a different result.

I disagree.
Lost Wanderer;6909786:

Last time I checked, Hitler shot himself in the head. What proof

do you have that he repented down to such a pathetic moment?

What proof do you have that he didn’t? We don’t know if he’s in Hell or not. I’d call it likely, but far from certain. He probably didn’t repent. But he COULD have, and I’m not God. It’s His job to judge people’s souls, not mine.

The underlined parts are the grave crimes of that Nazi bastard. He is guilty of deliberately defrauding Jews via propaganda and murdering six million of them via gas chambers and concentration camps. All of these he did with full knowledge, deliberate consent, and furthermore its quite clear from his actions that he showed no remorse whatsoever.

How do you know that this “Nazi Bastard” never, ever showed remorse?

Is it likely? No, it is not likely. Is it impossible? No, it is not.

It’s not our job to judge people’s souls.

By what evidence do you still cling on to the notion that such a vile individual is qualified to be in Purgatory? (See I’m on topic as well )

I speak for nobody else, but I have no idea where this person is. None. I don’t know whether or not this person repented or not. I’m not qualified to judge people’s souls. God is.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Look I am not denying the source and the debt I owe to God for these signals. However, I don’t see how one can’t both be proud of what I have learned by following these signals and at the same time, give glory to the God who gave these signals to me in the first place. I congratulate God first for giving me the signal and second, I congratulate myself for choosing to follow it. I can’t understand how these are incompatible.

Because you’re no better than them. What you have done (which is simply say yes) may have been worth while, but what you are is no different than those who you snide at. When what I posted says that we cannot do good without the grace of God it therefore means that without God we can only do evil. All the actions he does that seem good will be only for evil (gain, pride, increase in fame, etc.). So in effect, no, you are no better than Hitler, or Stalin, or Pol Pot, or Lenin, or Mao because you have the same capacity for evil as they. The only difference is that you said “yes” to grace and they said “no”.

You may then say that you should be proud of that “yes” but guess what? You’ve only done what you are supposed to do. You shouldn’t feel pride in your good works because you’re supposed to do them. You’ve only done your job. It’s like a man being proud of himself because he takes care of his children. Well, though it’s nice he does, he is supposed to anyway. So all the good you take pride in are really nothing to take pride in. As a Christian the only good we should take pride in is the cross, because Christ did not have to die for us, he did not have to die on the cross. He went above and beyond the call of duty. This is something to boast in, Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. This is the only thing to boast in, and is man’s only hope and leverage. The only sacrifice God will not refuse.

Luke 17

7 ‘Who among you would say to your slave who has just come in from ploughing or tending sheep in the field, “Come here at once and take your place at the table”? 8Would you not rather say to him, “Prepare supper for me, put on your apron and serve me while I eat and drink; later you may eat and drink”? 9Do you thank the slave for doing what was commanded? 10So you also, when you have done all that you were ordered to do, say, “We are worthless slaves; we have done only what we ought to have done!” ’

When the Christian has fully died to himself, when he has abandoned himself to God and given to God all he has, when he has emptied himself and united his will as much as he could to the Will of God, when he has fully crucified the world to himself, when he has crucified the old man and risen in Christ, he will (and should) esteem it as nothing, because he has only done what he has ought to have done.

Heaven is not a reward he earns by saying “yes”, and hell the home of those who sin. Heaven is everyone’s natural home, though we are sinners heaven is where we all belong, not an extra reward we attain. So why should you laugh at them because you feel you get to go home while they choose not to? It’s not the home you earn, it’s the home you get to go back to and the home you reject when you sin. And you still sin right? That being the case you are no better than them. You sin might not be the same kind of sin or even the same severity sometimes, but it is still a rejection of God, and you hurt Christ just as they do (especially when you mortally sin, whether it is murder or sins of a sexual nature, a mortal sin is a mortal sin, though some graver than others they all cut off our friendship with God), you hurt your brother Christ (who is brother of all mankind btw, not just yours) just as them.

So really, what do you have in terms of your salvation that no one else does? What were you offered that they weren’t? What did God destine you to that he did not destine everyone else to? Sure, you said “yes”, but then you’ve only done what you were supposed to do, whether or not you gain heaven from it and get to go home. You are God’s beloved son, but so are they (that includes the Mother Theresas, the Hitlers, the Stalins, the Padre Pios and the Pol Pots and the Marys). God loves you just as much as he loves Satan and the demons, and just as much as he loves the angels and St. Michael and Mary. Only in Christ can we boast, but then again, all men then can boast because of Christ, not just you or any of the faithful.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

The only difference is that you said “yes” to grace and they said “no”.

The problem is saying “no” is actually the first step to committing the unforgivable sin of full rejection all the way till death.

Only in Christ can we boast, but then again, all men then can boast because of Christ, not just you or any of the faithful.

How can someone boast of someone they hate? :ehh:

 

[TheQuestioner]

The problem is saying “no” is actually the first step to committing the unforgivable sin of full rejection all the way till death.

How can someone boast of someone they hate? :ehh:

But every time you sin you say “no”. Proverbs 24:16 says

“for though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity.”

But still, the righteous man falls seven times. This is all anyone can do when they rely on themselves, they can only disappoint. How can you have pride in yourself when you constantly let down, offend and hurt God when you have God to boast in instead, who never let’s down and always guides us? The just man does not pick himself up, but puts his hand into God’s in order to rise. On your own you can only fall and with God you rise. You therefore have no right to take pride in the fact that you took God’s hand, you only did what you ought to do. You should recognize that naturally you would be in the dirt with everyone else, and urge them (when it is charitable to do so) and pray for them to take God’s hand to. Where you are now is a gift not earned.

Everyone has Christ to boast in, and He is the only one to boast in. Whether or not one boast in Him is up to them.

 

[Monica4316]

The problem is saying “no” is actually the first step to committing the unforgivable sin of full rejection all the way till death.

There are times in every person’s life when they say ‘no’. It’s possible to first say ‘yes’, and then ‘no’, and never repent again. Then there are people who first hate God, and then convert.

I’ve been thinking about this… if we feel ourselves to be superior to others spiritually, that comes from pride. I’m guilty of that. But the Saints considered themselves the greatest sinners.

 

[mangy_dog]

Why do we pray for “suffering” souls in purgatory?

Isn’t purgatory where souls get final cleansing for heaven?

Once they get to heaven, don’t they have an eternity?

So why does purgatory get such a bad rap?

It is called the church suffering.

The holy souls in purgatory truly understand the gravity of sin and the need to do penance for forgiven sins. To suffer in the flesh is bad enough but to suffer in the soul - it’s beyond our understanding.

Their suffering is tempered by their joy in knowing that sooner or later they will enter heaven. We , the church militant, need to pray and sacrifice for these poor suffering souls…that’s our job. So that, when they enter heaven, they will pray for us.

 

[Alex_Di_Matteo]

It is my belief that we fear purgatory because we really know nothing about it. Most of what we have heard comes from private revelation, and that is not mandated to be believed. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says little about it , or at least nothing that I have seen resembling what is said in private revelation. I think if we trusted solely in the Love of God for us, we would avoid the speculation, and as well the preoccupation with the idea of pain and suffering. In commenting on Heaven, St. Paul could not describe it but said,"Eyes have not seen, ears have not heard, neither has it entered mans heart concerning the things that God has prepared for those who love Him,but God has revealed it to us by His Spirit(1 Corinthians 2:9,10) All that to say, purgatory is a spiritual place and concept. We get into trouble when we try to materialize in our mind what can only be comprehended by or in the spirit.

 

[Alex_Di_Matteo]

In regard to why people fear Purgatory, I would like to add to what I have previously replied to in my post. There are those in and out of the church who major in motivating others by fear. Scaring them into doing what is right. I have a problem with private revelation for that reason. I don’t know the state of mind of the one who received the revelation. I question not the fact that they received a revelation, but was their perception accurate, or
was it colored by their own personal thoughts on the issue. Much of the false teaching of prophecy is promoted by Cults and others by focusing on bible texts that are pulled from context to prove a point. These texts by themselves, can be used for whatever purpose they want, and can be made to say whatever they want. Let the word of God, speak for itself and do not add what it does not say. I think the Catechism has it correct. If it isn’t in either of those sources ( Bible,& Catechism) don’t worry about it.

 

[RJJ42]

Not to pick at you or anyone, but this attitude seems to be the growing norm, and this is not good.

Personally, I am terrified of going to purgatory. I know it’s guaranteed heaven, but think of the greatest pain you’ve ever felt. That pain is nothing close to what you would feel in purgatory. The pain in purgatory is constant, not periodic. Also, you can go there for years…years and years…years and years and years and years.

So as for me, I’ll do penance for myself, for the souls in purgatory and for others. I’m aiming for heaven because I love God, but also, screw purgatory. I’m not willing to be there for a minute, and I hope one day it can be empty.

The one thing I’m very glad isn’t lost in Pugatory is Hope. The Hope we will see God and all the elect. For this reason I’m not terrified and if I don’t go directly to Heaven will go there knowing that God and my family will be waiting for me.

 

[TheQuestioner]

In regard to why people fear Purgatory, I would like to add to what I have previously replied to in my post. There are those in and out of the church who major in motivating others by fear. Scaring them into doing what is right. I have a problem with private revelation for that reason. I don’t know the state of mind of the one who received the revelation. I question not the fact that they received a revelation, but was their perception accurate, or
was it colored by their own personal thoughts on the issue. Much of the false teaching of prophecy is promoted by Cults and others by focusing on bible texts that are pulled from context to prove a point. These texts by themselves, can be used for whatever purpose they want, and can be made to say whatever they want. Let the word of God, speak for itself and do not add what it does not say. I think the Catechism has it correct. If it isn’t in either of those sources ( Bible,& Catechism) don’t worry about it.

Kinda sounds like you are rationalizing your ignoring the pains of purgatory by saying that Cults twist biblical text, which has little do with the subject at hand.

Have you ever wondered why in the private revelations the Saints (who are not motivated by fear, as getting into heaven requires a true and tangible love of God, not just a fear of punishment, and who speak of God as a Father and friend) that none of them every describe souls in purgatory going “yeah it sucks here, but hey, I’m up beat, I got hope ” but virtually all of them describe the souls in purgatory as being more of the “GET ME OUT OF HERE! If not for the hope of heaven this place would be unbearable! Help Me!!!” attitude?

 

[TheQuestioner]

The one thing I’m very glad isn’t lost in Pugatory is Hope. The Hope we will see God and all the elect. For this reason I’m not terrified and if I don’t go directly to Heaven will go there knowing that God and my family will be waiting for me.

Yes but this step is all too painful and all too unnecessary.