Why God didn't desire a universe without evil?

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You assume an instance must exist of the good or evil. Existence of free will itself requires also the existence of the idea of moral good and of moral evil.
Of course. But if everyone here has been on topic, they have been thinking about a “universe without evil” and not a “universe without the ideal of moral evil” so please do not shift the goalposts.

We live in a universe where humans cannot fly like superman. But we live in a universe that has the idea of flying like superman. So it clearly can be the case that we could have a universe *without *evil but *with *the idea of moral evil.
 
We live in a universe where humans cannot fly like superman. But we live in a universe that has the idea of flying like superman. So it clearly can be the case that we could have a universe *without *evil but *with *the idea of moral evil.
There’s nothing natural about flying to being human. That is, an individual could certainly desire to fly, and there’s nothing perverse about that, but there’s nothing about being human in itself that creates a desire to fly. However, there are some things to that belong to simply being human, such as thirst. That a human being has a natural desire for water implies that there is water (not that he will get water, but that this natural desire is towards water is not in vain and that there is such a thing as water).

Likewise, I think it’s fairly east to argue in favor of the existence of goodness. You are probably familiar with the argument that “there’s no such thing as altruism, people are selfish and do what they think is best for themselves, and if that means they get more out of helping another at cost for themselves, it’s still selfishness.” (Now, I think the conclusion from this that there is no altruism is as absurd as those who say that there’s no such thing as suction, it’s just pressure differentials in the air, but that’s not the point.) I bring this up because there us a kernal of truth to that. Rational people always choose what seems most good to them. Even the criminal does a criminal act because it seems like it’ll net him some good he favors over other goods, so it follows that humans have a natural desire towards “the good,” whether we agree on how we prioritize that or not, and so it would follow that this tendency is not towards something non-existent, but to something real (not that it’s floating out there in some realm of forms, but that it is a rwal property that can be found in things).

But if we have the idea of the good and, as a subset of that, as the moral good, we naturally deal with different grades of goodness, and if evil is to good as darkness/shadow is to light, it follows that there is evil as well. That’s really where moral evil stems from, the choosing to frustrate a greater good in order to achieve an objectively lesser good because a person makes a subjectively poor decision. If you have goodness, and if you have grades of it, you inevitably have evil.

A universe without evil is a universe without grades, without variety, without change. It is a universe in which the creation never acts and never gives. It is a universe which is further from being in the image of God.
 
Of course. But if everyone here has been on topic, they have been thinking about a “universe without evil” and not a “universe without the ideal of moral evil” so please do not shift the goalposts.

We live in a universe where humans cannot fly like superman. But we live in a universe that has the idea of flying like superman. So it clearly can be the case that we could have a universe *without *evil but *with *the idea of moral evil.
A “universe without evil” would also be a “universe without good” (and consequently no expression of charity and malice) but then without a moral choice then the free will referred to is not a will free from that of God, it would only be free to choose between various morally neutral options.
 
A universe without evil is a universe without grades, without variety, without change… It is a universe which is further from being in the image of God.
I’m like 99% sure that Catholic theology asserts that God does not have grades, variety, or change. So how would a lack of those things make us less like God?
 
A “universe without evil” would also be a “universe without good” (and consequently no expression of charity and malice) but then without a moral choice then the free will referred to is not a will free from that of God, it would only be free to choose between various morally neutral options.
So in any given situation, you think there is always exactly one “good” choice, while all other choices are morally neutral or evil? Because that’s the only way taking evil off the table would put us into a straitjacket. If there were several good options, then we would still a range of “good” options to choose from. Indeed, in such a world we would be capable of weighing which of the good options was the best (if we wanted to.)
 
So in any given situation, you think there is always exactly one “good” choice, while all other choices are morally neutral or evil? Because that’s the only way taking evil off the table would put us into a straitjacket. If there were several good options, then we would still a range of “good” options to choose from. Indeed, in such a world we would be capable of weighing which of the good options was the best (if we wanted to.)
Good and evil are opposites so without the idea of one there is not the idea of the other. The idea of what to do occurs before the willful act. As long as there is evil potential then there can be good potential and either can have countless numbers of acts or omissions in either category.
 
Good and evil are opposites so without the idea of one there is not the idea of the other. The idea of what to do occurs before the willful act. As long as there is evil potential then there can be good potential and either can have countless numbers of acts or omissions in either category.
Of course. But if everyone here has been on topic, they have been thinking about a “universe without evil” and not a “universe without the ideal of moral evil” so please do not shift the goalposts.
I’m fine with the idea existing (like the idea of human flight) but am not fine with the actual thing existing (like actual human flight.)
 
. . . We live in a universe where humans cannot fly like superman. But we live in a universe that has the idea of flying like superman. . .
Not wanting to derail the thread, but finding this is interesting:

I’d say that it is more than an idea, but a desire.
A desire to be free of the shackles that bind us to the earth, to soar in the heavens and gaze down from the heights and see the immensity, the totality of the isolated bits and pieces we see from our vantage point on the ground.
The exhilaration of that rising above the chains that condemn us to darkness, is the positive aspect of the fear and anxiety of falling, shattered.
There are all sorts of techniques and methods to get “high”, but only love truly lifts us ever higher to the Sun, the Source of life, which burns away all that is not Goodness.

From nothing, to have a being that can love, there must be the possibility of not-love; i.e. evil.
 
The “problem of good” would only arise, if God would be assumed to be all-powerful and all-MALEvolent.

The existence of evil is contradictory to a benevolent God. The existence of good would be contradictory to a malevolent God. But since you consider God to be benevolent, only the first problem exists.
Free will.
You don’t believe in free will?

All the reams of posting, and still you will not admit that human beings have free will.
And we do NOT hold responsible God for anything, neither the good, nor the bad. We simply point out your hypocrisy to praise God for the good, and NOT blame God for the bad.
Why would a person want to blame? Why do you do that? What point is there in blaming?
Why would you blame a God you don’t believe in, while at the same time deny God praise for the good that you have?
**We don’t blame God for free choices that God does not make, we have something called responsibility. **(amazon.com/Love-Responsibility-Karol-Wojtyla/dp/0898704456, )
And why do you care if we praise God, if you do not even believe in God? What is it that bothers you about praising the good?
 
Being itself is something good.
So, if one person existed, even without free will, there would be good.
This is in the foundation of creation by God, that the existence of any thing means that good exists. Then there is the distinction between existence and non-existence, which is the distinction between true and absence of truth, good and absence of being.
There is a gradation of being as there is with goodness to perfection. God is the ultimate fullness of being, goodness, perfection in all things Who is the apex of the scale of measurement.
 
Now you might have meant “necessary” in a different sense. That is to say, you might mean “God needed to allow evil into the world to accomplish some other goal.” But this is also quite troublesome. It means that God has other goals that are equally-if-not-more-important than our well-being (even though he is supposed to be perfectly loving.) It means that evil also serves God’s will (because without it, he would have been unable to accomplish his other goal.)
The potential for evil in the universe does not mean that evil is necessarily actualized.
The term “evil” also has characteristics. There is directly willed evil, and there is “evil of deprivation”. There is a scale and the term “evil” is not really appropriate to cover all aspects of “that which is not God”.
 
The potential for evil in the universe does not mean that evil is necessarily actualized.
Sure. When I roll the dice, any of the numbers on the sides might come up, it does not mean that all of them will. But God always knows ahead of time what number will come up.
The term “evil” also has characteristics. There is directly willed evil, and there is “evil of deprivation”. There is a scale and the term “evil” is not really appropriate to cover all aspects of “that which is not God”.
Sure. If you defined everything that is not God as evil, creation is evil by virtue of not being God. I’m sure that’s why I’ve never heard anyone seriously hold the position that anything that is not God must be evil.
 
Sure. When I roll the dice, any of the numbers on the sides might come up, it does not mean that all of them will. But God always knows ahead of time what number will come up.
God does know, sure. But does that knowledge create culpability? Particularly where God’s not the one “rolling the dice”. We are.

It would then seem that our free moral agency is the problem. Perhaps God should annihilate it? :eek:

Moreover, I’m not sure we can equate the evil choices of any particular person to an act of random probability.
 
God does know, sure. But does that knowledge create culpability? Particularly where God’s not the one “rolling the dice”. We are.

It would then seem that our free moral agency is the problem. Perhaps God should annihilate it? :eek:

Moreover, I’m not sure we can equate the evil choices of any particular person to an act of random probability.
It means that when God created the world, he desired it to be exactly the way it is, evil and all. If he did not desire it this way, he would not have created it.
 
It means that when God created the world, he desired it to be exactly the way it is, evil and all. If he did not desire it this way, he would not have created it.
I think there’s a hint of reductionism here. Your scenario leaves out the created free moral agency of mankind.

God created a world where He wanted humanity to choose to worship him of their own independent will. Ergo they had to be given such a will.

When you do a bad thing, God certainly knew you’d do it, as he’s omnipresent. But as you’ve been gifted a will of your own, you couldn’t correctly say he made you to do it.
 
It means that when God created the world, he desired it to be exactly the way it is, evil and all. If he did not desire it this way, he would not have created it.
But relationships are about love.
Remember, you are claiming to critique Christianity. So let’s critique the actual thing.

What is the nature of love? Is love free? Can love be painful? Is love risky? Is love unilateral, or relational?
If you can’t critique Christianity within this framework, you are critiquing a straw man.

Anticipating your automatic objection, love is not force, it only exists in freedom.
Let’s talk about Christianity.
 
I think there’s a hint of reductionism here. Your scenario leaves out the created free moral agency of mankind.

God created a world where He wanted humanity to choose to worship him of their own independent will. Ergo they had to be given such a will.

When you do a bad thing, God certainly knew you’d do it, as he’s omnipresent. But as you’ve been gifted a will of your own, you couldn’t correctly say he made you to do it.
I didn’t say he made you do it. Just that he made everything involved. He made you, whatever scenario you were in, and the consequences of your actions. He made all of those things knowing about the evil you were invoking. Nothing can exist if not created by God.
 
But relationships are about love.
Remember, you are claiming to critique Christianity. So let’s critique the actual thing.

What is the nature of love? Is love free? Can love be painful? Is love risky? Is love unilateral, or relational?
If you can’t critique Christianity within this framework, you are critiquing a straw man.

Anticipating your automatic objection, love is not force, it only exists in freedom.
Let’s talk about Christianity.
To love is to desire what is best for someone. If you believe that God loves us he wants what is best for us. Evil is not best for us. So if God loves us, he would desire a universe without evil.
 
I didn’t say he made you do it. Just that he made everything involved. He made you, whatever scenario you were in, and the consequences of your actions. He made all of those things knowing about the evil you were invoking. Nothing can exist if not created by God.
As a clarification, when you stated…
It means that when God created the world, he desired it to be exactly the way it is, evil and all.
…you then mean that when Stalin killed several million Ukrainians, God deterministically desired for Stalin to do it?
 
As a clarification, when you stated…

…you then mean that when Stalin killed several million Ukrainians, God deterministically desired for Stalin to do it?
God desired the world in which that happened.
 
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