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friardchips
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Okay, so if evil is deprivation of…“good”, and we can all deprive ourselves of good and be deprived of good at various levels then this means that…
- Evil is lesser degrees of…?
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fhansen
Guest
I think this is the crux of the issue, dismissing much of what you’ve said so far in your replies to me since they don’t square with much of anything I’ve said anyway. (And you never did answer post #85 BTW). But what I said in regard to the Fall is that *God *has a purpose in it.
We have to understand that we’re speaking of an omniscient being here. And this means that there was never a Plan B, *only *a Plan A. So God, knowing the Fall would occur, deemed it worthwhile in His wisdom to create anyway, knowing He could bring an even greater good out of the evil that would ensue. This doesn’t mean that He said sin was “okay”, as you rightfully objected to. So, yes, we must vigorously maintain that God is not the author of evil, and that all moral evil comes from created beings possessing free will, choosing lesser goods over greater ones.
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STT
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We say may because we cannot predict the decision of a person. That is true people could always do good. The point that I am raising is that a universe that people always do good is possible. Could we agree on that?I really don’t understand your position.
Is it or is it not the case that individuals may always do good?
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STT
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But they could do good. Could’t they? The fact that some in past choose evil does not mean a universe without evil is impossible? Could we agree on that?
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STT
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Evil is lesser degree of good.
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fhansen
Guest
In order for evil to never occur, all created beings possessing free will would need to remain in subjugation to God, which means, in effect, that they would need to love God with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. This is so because communion with God is the greatest good for man, because He’s the greatest good, and all other good flows from this communion, and without it evil will always follow. “Apart from Me you can do nothing”, John 15:5, is a the basis of the New Covenant. And there is simply no guarantee that this relationship would remain intact for all such beings, that they would all be capable of retaining this justice, this perfection.
As it is, in this life, we’re to *struggle *towards perfection, a *process *, involving the time that we’re each allowed here on earth along with whatever else we’re given in terms of knowledge, grace, background, experiences, etc.
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STT
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I think we just need to be rational to avoid evil. But lets accept your position. Do you agree that a universe without evil is possible?
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fhansen
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I don’t think, with the degree of freedom we possess, that all could maintain rationality in all their actions eternally without the communion I spoke of, without putting God first IOW. Because pretty soon some lesser good will present itself and we, as lone rangers now for all practical purposes, will opt for a less rational behavior of some kind, and therefore an act outside of God’s perfect will-having sincerely decided that our course of action is the right one. So it begins and ends for me with that question: will man be subjugated to God in a relationship of love?
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STT
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Do you agree that a universe without evil is possible given all the circumstances you meantioned?
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STT
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And how this is related to subject of this thread?Equaling:
We concur with St. Augustine of Hippo on this.
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fhansen
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Over a period of time, certainly, once those who will draw near to goodness/God and away from sin are finally fully united with God and evil is no longer desired-or allowed- in any capacity.
I don’t know if this has been brought up but the following is a Church teaching related to the subject at hand:
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.
meltzerboy
New member
Jews take this verse quite literally. I guess they are the original Fundamentalists. Evil gives us something to surmount by using our free will. We can repair the imperfections in the universe (or at least those of our own planet) and thus grow in holiness by forging a partnership, an alliance with G-d, in which each of us does our own share. We can also learn to control our impulses and place boundaries on our desires. This teaches us order and self-discipline. But not only believers understand this. Non-believers can also appreciate the value of struggle, internal and external, in the secular world. Think of the starving artist (the painter, the writer, the musician, the actor, the singer, the dancer), for example, and how they can learn, by being tested, to improve their skills, refine their understanding, come to a better appreciation of their talent, and gain wisdom as well as knowledge. For the Christian, Good Friday must always precede Easter Sunday.
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friardchips
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Because to answer this question you have to understand what it is that you are asking.
If one has reached a point in analysis in which one finds oneself in agreement with the insights of those who are Doctors of the Church, one can begin to formulate truth of wider magnitude, to which you seem to be intending to do. St. Augustine wrote about this subject and his body of work might aid your search.
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friardchips
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My posts were applicable to the responses you had provided. I think you are able to answer.
If someone cares to provide St. Thomas’ actual quote rather than a summary of his quote then I might look at it.
This seems more in line with where I am.
I would like to know more about how St. Thomas of Aquinas approached this.
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fhansen
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You were the party that took issue with my agreement with the summary of SA’s quote in post #46 that began your whole line of questioning with me. So I’ll wait for* your* answer
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fhansen
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**[649] In a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and earthenware, and some unto honour, some unto dishonour (2 Tim. ii, 20). Yes, but we should like to have every vessel good of its kind; sound earthenware as well as 22- carat gold. Per se it is so, per accidens often not. The human spirit ever finds some retort upon these justifications. Investigable up to a certain point, the dark continent of evil stretches away beyond into mystery; and there is nothing for it but to trust God. [650] An atom cannot fall away from goodness, being practically imperishable: a man’s body easily falls away: yet there is no doubt which represents the higher grade of goodness. [651] This perhaps is the best account that we have to render of evil. Evil lies at the root of things creatable, limited and imperfect: it is imbedded in the eternal possibilities of their nature: let but things exist in time, and certain evils, physical evils at any rate, are bound to arise. And given a realm of rational creatures, subject to physical evils, moral evils are not far off the frontier of such a kingdom. 437 [652] We only live because previous generations have died and made room for us. Deaths make births and marriages possible. A general resurrection, under the conditions of humanity that at present obtain, would be as bad as a general massacre. **
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friardchips
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You’ll be waiting a long time then.
When the actual quote is given then I’ll look at it.
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