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Bahman
Guest
So you agree that God has no mercy to non-Christian?
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Vico
Guest
You did not understand what I posted.
Anyone that is finally saved is a member of the Church of Christ, and that includes some that are not visible members of the Catholic Church. Catechism describes the three groups in the Church 1) pilgrims on earth, 2) the dead being purified (purgatory), and 3) those in glory (heaven). I will post 847 again:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
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John_Martin
Guest
On the day of the Goats and the Sheep being judged, there will be a Christian standing beside Jesus.
This Christian will be one of the least of Jesus’ disciples (one of the Church).
Jesus will ask this “least of his followers”,
“Did this person being judged give you food when you were hungry or drink when you were thirsty or help when you were in need?”
The Christian will say either “Yes, he fed me” or “No, he sent me away empty.”
Then Jesus, after hearing the answer, will say to the one being judged either:
“When I was hungry you fed me”
Or he will say.
“When I was hungry you gave me nothing to eat”
So, no one enters heaven apart from the Church - either being a member of Christ, or by helping one who is a member of Christ, and that one will speak favorably to Jesus about you at the judgment.
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Bahman
Guest
But this is against several passages in Bible especially the one I quoted in OP.
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Bahman
Guest
So you agree that only member of church or those who did a favour to member of church could go to heaven.
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John_Martin
Guest
That is what Jesus taught - some Christians will receive the inheritance of the Kingdom of God, and some non-believers will be given an inheritance in the Kingdom of God. All will be judged by what they have done.
Christians were given a special Grace and mission in this world. They were given the Holy Spirit with Virtues so they could willingly fulfil good in the world and be the Body of Christ doing the work of Christ. They were called to be Christ in front of you, so that you would have God materially in front of you, to do good to them or to harm them.
Christians are a body in the world, like their head Jesus. They are in the world, but they are not citizens of the world, not from the world, but are foreigners in your company. And since they look just like you, you will not know whether you are helping or hurting Christ when you help or hurt another person in front of you who needs help.
But on judgement day, you will be judged according to whether you helped or hurt Christ in helping or hurting the least of these his disciples.
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Vico
Guest
It is the teaching of the Catholic Church on the matter. Also we have from Vatican II:
“… it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. (22)” – Unitatis Redintegratio
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html
*Lumen Gentium *16, Vatican II:
- Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.
The Haydock Commentary on Matt 12:30 has this:
30 He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.
Ver. 30. He that is not with me. This sentence is not to be understood as directly spoken of heretics and schismatics, although at first sight it may appear so, but of the devil, who wishes to lead the souls of men captive, whilst Christ wishes to free them. He entices men to wickedness, Jesus Christ draws them to virtue: how therefore can the works of Christ be compared with those of Satan! (St. Jerome) — There is no medium. We must either be with Christ, or against Christ: if we are not of Christ, whose then must we be, when nothing but sin can separate us from Christ and God? Oh, where will the generality of Christians, who shew themselves so indifferent with regard to salvation, find themselves at the last day? Can they say they are with Christ?
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Bahman
Guest
Is there any passage in Bible you can quote about God’s mercy toward unchristian?
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Bahman
Guest
Why those who are not with Jesus are with devil, Satan?
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Vico
Guest
It should be understandable using the few sentences before Matthew 12 (NABRE translation)
25 Knowing what was in their minds he said to them, 'Every kingdom divided against itself is heading for ruin; and no town, no household divided against itself can last.
26 Now if Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself; so how can his kingdom last?
27 And if it is through Beelzebul that I drive devils out, through whom do your own experts drive them out? They shall be your judges, then.
28 But if it is through the Spirit of God that I drive out devils, then be sure that the kingdom of God has caught you unawares.
29 'Or again, how can anyone make his way into a strong man’s house and plunder his property unless he has first tied up the strong man? Only then can he plunder his house.
30 'Anyone who is not with me is against me, and anyone who does not gather in with me throws away.
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Aloysium
Guest
We are on a journey, and through us it could be said all creation, towards or away from God. Through our choices, set within eternity, unchangeable but forgivable, once actualized, we become the person we will ourselves to be. We are always in movement as in each moment, what was possible becomes reality. Jesus is more than an idea, but the reality of the Way towards God. You can only be with Him or against Him. There is no middle ground. Eternal happiness is to be found in simple acts of charity. And, that boils down to a choice we are all given in each moment. Satan is the reality of what influences us not to follow our conscience, not to do God’s will, to perhaps harm rather than love. So you are either for Christ or with Satan.
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John_Martin
Guest
I already did, where he welcomes the sheep into his Kingdom, because they fed him, clothed him, visited him (when they fed, clothed, and visited the least of his followers).
You might say that is not mercy, but payment.
No, that is not the case: payment is in kind - food for food, clothes for clothes, visit for visit. But mercy is someone being given something that is beyond hope - and that is heaven.
No amount of food or clothes or visits equals the value of heaven, but these people are shown mercy and given heaven, in a manner parallel to the mercy they showed to Jesus by feeding, clothing, and visiting the least of his followers.
Payment would be Jesus giving them a new suit of clothes and letting them die of old age and be done.
Mercy is granting them entrance into his presence in eternal life.
So, I am calling you, Bahman, to stop trying to destroy people’s faith but instead help them to remain faithful. Show mercy to the least of Jesus’ followers, and Jesus will show mercy to you on the last day. Not in payment, but infinitely parallel to the mercy you have shown.
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
You don’t need to worry about these things so much, Bahman.
None of us have much idea what He will decide about individuals and we will probably be surprised. But He calls us to know the principles He will apply to us ourselves, once we have joined the Church.
A most crucial concept that many Catholics forget to mention, is the vital importance of whether we enter into a catechetical journey.
Whilst there is much excellent information in these responses, it is probably not coming at you in the sequence an optimum evangelising and catechising church in your neighbourhood would give it, for your comprehension. Jesus intended these things to unfold to us over a number of years like with His disciples, and Scriptures are an aide memoire to a very big body of teaching.
Christ - and churches that are in the know - invite us to share with fellow human beings and express for ourselves our evolving motives and reasons for enquiring, in the light of the appropriate teachings as we start off (such as the journey of Abraham). That way, it can be discerned whether it is right that we continue this journey at this time (or slow down).
I am not trained in this. I think those few forum members who have training, apply the crash-course method (which may have worked well in certain countries and at certain periods in history).
As Jesus says, some of the people who will have been doing good works in His name He is going to tell that He didn’t know them (possibly something to do with their sole focus on externals without internals I think, though I don’t understand it much).
Questions like saved or not saved, entering the Kingdom or not entering the Kingdom (which is probably something different from saved) - are very big subjects and I suspect few Catholics or Protestants know as much as could be of value to know.
Hoping this helps you in a small way
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
Here you are Bahman, this bit is specially for you at this time and indefinitely.
It can be confusing with modern day electronic communications to know who one is “part of” and who one isn’t.
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
Bahman, Mt 12:30 is not beginners’ stuff. It goes with chapter 10. It is about the values once one seeks to be part of the “mobilised” ones as it were.
(“Mobilise” is purely my own word. I mean something that should only come after long term nurturing. I mean the complete opposite of what almost everyone else means, namely manipulating a mob into knee-jerk proselytising.)
There is several years’ worth of learning - nurturing - for you before you get to that stage, if you choose, and if it’s feasible. Jesus won’t judge you for it not being feasible! Nor for choosing for good reasons! (But I don’t know what would be good reasons other than to say, definitely do not worry about it!)
Starting to relate to Jesus comes way way before any of that.
Some of the more pushy types of Protestants - who are commonplace on the internet - insist on foisting random bits of Bible on everybody but forget that every human being needs to be accompanied on a journey and the appropriate Scriptures offered him as they proceed.
Scripture words are supposed to be applied in their right circumstances !!!
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
Mt 12:30 doesn’t really do this in a general way. The choice you refer to is continually open to us.
Mt 12:30 refers to a specific point where we ourselves undertake specific evangelising and it doesn’t come at the beginning of the Christian walk.
It will be uniquely individual between us and Christ, as to whether we lose all if we don’t take on extra responsibilities, or not.
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Bahman
Guest
I am afraid that I didn’t get it. Could you please elaborate?
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Bahman
Guest
Why there should be only one way, Christ way, toward God?
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
The quote from Haydock has given me a thought. I have added a break after the end of what I presume is Jerome’s bit (he lived about 400 AD. He had a pet lion!)
Jerome’s point is that Jesus was indeed talking about Satan as is clear throughout chapter 12 incidentally. The people he was talking to - which were not wouldbe followers, but were using religion as a political weapon - were trying to establish the propaganda that Jesus was devil-possessed and that Jesus’ deeds are evil, as a cloak for holding themselves up in the public eye as more pious when all they were really after was to dominate the poor.
Then comes what I presume is Haydock’s point. It is the same point as many thread posters have made, but rest assured that it applies right in the middle of our journey, once we have already journeyed with Jesus a long time, not at the beginning. It is about self-styled Christians who are indifferent to Christ’s will for their attitude towards their fellows.
The Old Testament continually repeats, do not stunt the growth of the widows and orphans (by feeding ordinary church members and wouldbe members the real meaning of Scriptures as compared to false meanings). St Paul hoped to gain his crown by helping others gain a crown. This is what trading with the talents is. This is what the profitable family firm in the last 21 verses of Proverbs is. This is what not beating the fellow servants, but feeding them their proper rations till the master comes back from the far country, is. This is a terrible injunction on church ministers. Church ministers that weild moralism and legalism in religion as a weapon to keep others down, are joining forces with the devil. (It’s also a terrible injunction on certain politicians and business people in parts of Latin America, until very recently Ireland, and elsewhere where this ploy is traditional.) This is not an injunction on the likes of you Bahman!
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Bahman
Guest
Those who didn’t help Jesus’s followers might have done some good work. How possibly their good work could be ignored?
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