Why I am Drifting from Catholicism to Islam

[Sister_Amy]

You just added this line while I was writing my reply:

not to add that he had a dozen other women…if he couldn’t restrain himself, he could choose any other women.

This is actually not true. He could not choose other women, on the night of Aisha. Just like he could not choose Aisha on another woman’s night. Part of being fair between wives means that each gets the same amount of time, and a woman’s time is not taken just because she is menstruating. It would be haraam for him to go to another wife on Aisha’s night. (This is something I just learned, the fatwa–which calls it haraam–is on islamqa.)

 

[thedavidwilson]

Subhanallah! Even as I was writing my post I was thinking about the counterargument which you have just presented!!

In fact, the Shi’a DO have the opinion that literal touching isn’t allowed during menstruation. But anyone who truly appreciates the Arabic language (even the English language) can see that this ayah is not literal. When it says do not approach/touch it is saying do not have intercourse.

The Shi’a do not accept hadith from Aisha… which is, in my opinion a real shame.

So let me close by saying that the opinion of the followers of Muhammad is what I said above. Intimacy is allowed but not intercourse. What you posted is actually an attempt to smear other Muslims, and it’s pretty sad. The Sunni scholars do NOT say Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, had intercourse with his wife, but that he fondled her and did not have intercourse.

So the word consumated has a different meaning in islam. What other word meanings have you guys changed? Peace?

 

[thedavidwilson]

You just added this line while I was writing my reply:

This is actually not true. He could not choose other women, on the night of Aisha. Just like he could not choose Aisha on another woman’s night. Part of being fair between wives means that each gets the same amount of time, and a woman’s time is not taken just because she is menstruating. It would be haraam for him to go to another wife on Aisha’s night. (This is something I just learned, the fatwa–which calls it haraam–is on islamqa.)

Well it is good women are treated fairly in a polygamous muslim marriage. We should tell the women in Saudi Arabia, Afgh, Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia that. They will be relieved.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Well it is good women are treated fairly in a polygamous muslim marriage. We should tell the women in Saudi Arabia, Afgh, Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia that. They will be relieved.

The fatwa, incidentally enough, was from a Saudi scholar.

 

[inJESUS]

Subhanallah! Even as I was writing my post I was thinking about the counterargument which you have just presented!!

In fact, the Shi’a DO have the opinion that literal touching isn’t allowed during menstruation. But anyone who truly appreciates the Arabic language (even the English language) can see that this ayah is not literal. When it says do not approach/touch it is saying do not have intercourse

 

[Sister_Amy]

So, inJESUS, there are two opinions.

The opinion I gave you is the majority opinion, and the one I think is correct.

To say that a woman is totally impure during her period sounds to me more like a foolish man’s thought, then something from God. To say that she can’t leave her house or even be touched? Foolish. In a time and place where people don’t know how to clean themselves properly I can understand it. But in the last two millenia? I don’t think so.

And so I find that the majority opinion of Muslims is that a woman is not some evil dirty untouchable thing during her period. But yet you bring the opposite opinion which is the minority.

I’m not going to agree with it, I don’t think it’s justified Islamically or otherwise, and frankly I think it is a complete misinterpretation of the Qur’an and the Hadith. In other words, I think it’s wrong.

You clearly don’t agree with it either, so let’s go ahead and discard is as the strange, unjustifiable minority opinion. OK?

 

[inJESUS]

You just added this line while I was writing my reply:

This is actually not true. He could not choose other women, on the night of Aisha. Just like he could not choose Aisha on another woman’s night. Part of being fair between wives means that each gets the same amount of time, and a woman’s time is not taken just because she is menstruating. It would be haraam for him to go to another wife on Aisha’s night. (This is something I just learned, the fatwa–which calls it haraam–is on islamqa.)

but giving the fact that he has too many women to satisfy his needs, he could abstain for one night no? besides, there is a Sahih hadith saying Muhammad used to have intercourse with all his women in one day.

i just wanted to point out that things are not that pinky and things must be pointed out sometimes especialy when saying proudly that a man could not abstain even during menses, and that he used to have intercourse with many in the same day, and that fondling women in menses was a habit rather than exception are labelled as the supreme model of morality.

 

[Sister_Amy]

but giving the fact that he has too many women to satisfy his needs, he could abstain for one night no? besides, there is a Sahih hadith saying Muhammad used to have intercourse with all his women in one day.

i just wanted to point out that things are not that pinky and things must be pointed out sometimes especialy when saying proudly that a man could not abstain even during menses, and that he used to have intercourse with many in the same day, and that fondling women in menses was a habit rather than exception are labelled as the supreme model of morality.

Do you just like to argue with me?

I have heard this hadith, and didn’t forget it. You see, I said during the night it is haraam for him to go to another woman (which is what I read.) But not during the day.

Secondly, personally, I would like my husband to touch me, whether or not I’m menstruating. So the fact that Muhammad would touch his wife doesn’t make me see that as a weakness on his part, but a strength, some gentle and compassionate behavior I would like to see in my own husband.

Thirdly, as you know (though you argue otherwise), it WAS permissible for him to touch his wife, and only intercourse was forbidden. And he stayed within that limit.

 

[inJESUS]

So, inJESUS, there are two opinions.

obviously.

To say that a woman is totally impure during her period sounds to me more like a foolish man’s thought, then something from God.

 

[Glaucon]

Actually it’s quite the opposite of racist. The Arabs at the time WERE racist, and very tribal. Muhammad was telling them that they needed to obey their chief, regardless of what foolish complaint they might have against him. Discriminating against people based on their race, skin color, language, etc., isn’t allowed in Islam.

Oh, no, I wasn’t pulling them out of context. Don’t you dare accuse me of doing that.

Not being racist, you say? I dare you to walk out of your house right this instant and call a black person a “raisin-head”. Let’s see whether he “gets” that particular passage’s Muhammadan context or not.

And please, there is no justification for his slaughter of the peaceful Khaybar Jews who were just minding their own business… That is, before Muhammad (phub, was, blah) arrived.

So are you being blissfully ignorant regarding these aspects of your religion, or are you among the many apologists for Islam engaging in “taqiyya”?

And mind you, don’t assume I’m one of those libbie dhimmis who’d rather not know what “taqiyya” means.

 

[inJESUS]

Do you just like to argue with me?

for the same of arguing? obviously not.

I have heard this hadith, and didn’t forget it. You see, I said during the night it is haraam for him to go to another woman (which is what I read.) But not during the day.

 

[inJESUS]

Let us not enter that tiqiyya thing…taught or not in Islam, it does not mean Muslims on this board are hiding things…it’s really unfair and taqiyya thing is mostly on higher levels than forum discussions…Muslims here are saying what they know so instead of personal attacks, better assess what is being said please .

 

[Glaucon]

Let us not enter that tiqiyya thing…taught or not in Islam, it does not mean Muslims on this board are hiding things…it’s really unfair and taqiyya thing is mostly on higher levels than forum discussions…Muslims here are saying what they know so instead of personal attacks, better assess what is being said please .

Not a good idea. The concept of taqiyya allows them to paint us a picture of a prettier, more peaceful Islam. In fact, each time I go to sleep, I’d wish to myself that that were true. But instead the facts point to the contrary.

Fine then, I’ve made my point regarding taqiyya, but I suggest that you take what they say with a grain of salt. For your sake, since you’re simply too eager to leave the concept of taqiyya.

 

[Contarini]

Not a good idea. The concept of taqiyya allows them to paint us a picture of a prettier, more peaceful Islam. In fact, each time I go to sleep, I’d wish to myself that that were true. But instead the facts point to the contrary.

What facts? I’ve never seen any facts to back up the idea that most Muslims go around misrepresenting their own religion. It is simply far more probable that people like you are paranoid and prejudiced than that all Muslims are liars.

You can try to persuade yourself that you’re just a brave person who faces facts. But don’t expect anyone who doesn’t share your particular hangups to take such a heroic view of you.

Edwin

 

[inJESUS]

Not a good idea

. actually am surrounded by Muslims who believe in this concept, so am not denying it. Am saying that not all people are necessarily hiding things, especially on a forum… so you can assess their arguments without accusing them of taqiyya all the time it’s just not fair and does not lead to a rational dialogue that’s all.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs
The OP hasn’t posted since June 9th.

Of course he’s a muslim just messing with us. He was obviously never a Catholic, or was never anything but a nominal (non) Catholic, and is playing the taqiyya game with us infidels.

You have not one shred of evidence for this weird and uncharitable supposition.

Only a nominal, at best, Catholic would find the idea of God as a “monality” more palatable than God as a “trinity”. Therefore, that’s what he must be.

If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. If he doesn’t care to “show up” to “defend himself” then I’m going to leave my conclusion where it is, and consider him, at best, a nominal Catholic, which I personally define as a non-Catholic. That others might not share my definition of non-Catholic is just fine with me.

He also seems quite content to apologize (aka defend) islamic concepts of God in place of being an apologist for his “supposed” Catholic profession.

He’s either lying in being a real Catholic, or he’s never been a Catholic and is having us off by calling himself a “Catholic converting to islam” while claiming to be an, at least nominal, Catholic.

I will say again what I have said before: if this person and others who visit these forums do convert to Islam, you and others who have treated them with contempt and have engaged in vitriolic and abusive rhetoric against Islam will answer to God at the judgment for their souls.

Your worship of the god of false ecumenism makes you threaten Christians who tell the truth about islam, and it’s purveyors whose goal is to plant doubt in the minds of Catholics, Catholics being notorius WEAK in their catechesis such as to be quite vulnerable to these simple-minded yet very effective proselytizers of islam.

Once again, your not calling truth truth is what causes souls to be lost. I have faith that if this person truly compares Catholicism (Christianity) with islam, Catholicism will be chosen. If he doesn’t do his homework and goes with “the cool kids” he will have used his free will to commit himself to hell, indeed.

I don’t understand why you can’t see how much you are strengthening the (not intrinsically very strong) case of Islam by your approach.

I personally believe that people won’t change simply because they are “coddled by niceness” in this kind of forum. This is not the proper type of communication venue for that. This is the venue for truth telling. If they come here to truly learn to understand as we understand them they are completely impossible to “drive away from God”. If they are here for ANY other reason, then regardless of what is told them they will be only be driven deeper into what they already believe.

When people are driven deeper into what they already believe, they are more likely to find the truths in that which they do believe, and the untruths they finally find their are the ONLY things that will drive them to God, in the Church.

But, if you believe otherwise, that’s fine.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Perhaps you should debate less, and speak more often to struggling human beings.

I have a personal stake in this, since my dad’s cousin converted to Sufi Islam (she was Methodist, but her husband, who I believe led her into Islam, was a former Catholic). I know for a fact that sincere seekers do sometimes abandon Christianity for Islam. The attempt to pretend otherwise does great harm to Christianity.

If I am wrong, the worst that happens is that we get a chance to defend Christianity and perhaps give some dishonest Muslim propagandist a chance to snicker at us. But if I am right, then you are putting in danger a soul for whom Christ died.

Edwin

I would suggest that if one wants pastoral treatment, one should go to a venue other than this one.

I would also suggest that if one wants to practice pastoral ministry, that one do it other than in this venue.

Just my opinion, as this is a VERY non-private place to be handling such “intimate and delicate” interpersonal relations.

“Sincere seekers” are more often simply lacking in being taught the truth by those they trust, as those they trust are ignorant themselves and ALWAYS have some motive other than the “betterment of their trusting-seeker” in mind.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

The OP hasn’t posted since June 9th.

Actually, I was wrong.

He posted just yesterday (here).

He does appear more interested in lurking and not being responsive though, in his “answers” or “questions”:

I’m just Lazy
A good friend of mine is from Manchester, so I may have picked it up from him(that and "liquor before beer you’re in the clear, beer before liquor and you’ve never been sicker )

…that, plus his profile self-identification as “Islmamish”, and the fact that he’s an “islamish-ite” blithering about “alcohol” rather puts him in the “not particularly serious person” categorie to me.

But, once again, I may be wrong!

 

[Glaucon]

I agree. OP did strike me as a troll somewhat.

As the old Internet saying goes, “Don’t feed the trolls.” But regardless, this could prove to be a good mental exercise for us Cath’lics, if OP wouldn’t agree to a wholehearted and honest exploration of these issues.

He converts away? His loss. At least he wouldn’t be getting death threats from us should he decide to “apostasize” from Catholicism (unlike some other religion, whose name I dare not speak here ) Let’s just do everything we could… If he’s telling the truth, that is.

 

[wth1257]

The OP hasn’t posted since June 9th.

Of course he’s a muslim just messing with us. He was obviously never a Catholic, or was never anything but a nominal (non) Catholic, and is playing the taqiyya game with us infidels.

Excuse my language, however you’re a real Jackass.

Perhapse you find my responses simple minded or elementary, that is your right, however you have not ONE SHRED of evidence to say I am lying, in fact I have provide a plethora of evidence to prove I was raised Catholic and was once QUOTE devout.

I have provided the name of my Baptismal Priest, the name of my former Youth Minister, the name of a Monastery I helped run a program on St. Gemma at, and my Confirmation name.

At St. Paul of the Cross Monastery if take the elevator/stairs to the 1st floor you will see, on the platform which the stair continue up along a door with a small metal stop, that leads to the courtyard. Once you step through that door you will be in the Monastery courtyard. You will se a statue of Jesus, Paul the Cross, and a few smaller statues, there is a stations of the cross, and on the far right side a large crucifix. When you cross the Courtyard and enter the monks quarters(also accessible from the second floor library), you can continue down the hallway until you see a long, narrow flight of stairs with a locked gait at the bottom. If the Monks let you in you can continue to a table in the middle of the room containing Vatican authentications of the relics and tombs, continue forwards and you will see the wall in which past Priests are buried in, one of the tombs contains the remains of a Bishop was imprisoned in China for a number of years, continue around the room a bit further and you will see the Vestments of (I believe) Czar Nicholas II’s Chaplin refit to the Roman Rite, continue a bit further and you will find some remains of the cross, a Clapper(a devise, my Priest informed me, that was used to wake novices in the old days).

Now my good sir, why don’t you tell me just how many rabid Muslim apologists the Passionists allow in their crypt to lecture to LifeTeen kids on the subject of St Gemma?

catholic-church.org/stpaulsmonastery/

there is a link to the monastery websight, PLEASE call, ask for father Patrick(I believe he’s still there) or any of the several Passionists and ask them if my story checks out. Please don’t during the afternoon, they have AA counciling at either the Monastery kitchen, or the “blue room”, a large circular blue room with seats, in which is a staircase leading to the library, on the back left shelf you will find some nice philosophy texts.

I am DONE with this, as I have said before you are WELCOME to use my facebook to contact my former Youth Minister. Or, I could forward you the E-Mails the Order I was considering joining send to prospective young men.

This is no loss for Christendom, having this character “gone”, as you can’t lose what you never had.

I was a Sacristan, went to weekly confession, and prayed the rosary constantly in imitation of St Pio.

You have NO RIGHT to judge the state of my soul you hypocrite.

He’ll either get sick of the vapid “flowery” simplicity of islam, or become a suicidal slave to it, or not be humble enough to leave it and “adjust it (adjust his interpretation of islam)” to make it “reasonable”, which is what the vast majority of good “well behaved moderate” muslims do.

fantastic, now tell me what I’ll get for my Birthday.

Or, he’ll be graced with seeing that he needs to return home to God in His Church.

I thought I wasn’t ever a Catholic, or never a “real” Catholic?

Of course, if such delf assured, pretentious, arrogance is the mark of a “real” Catholic like yourself I suppose I misjudged my entire religion and should not hold it in fond regard but only contempt, as apparently it’s “true” members are not pious Monks in the Bronks(Whom I have ALSO had the PLEASURE of meeting) or humble nuns, of simply Pious Laymen, like Pope John Paul II’s father, but individuals such as yourself.

Now, I am fantastically willing to listen to critiques of my views of Christianity, but I am sick of this. Either call my bluff, which I doubt as that would take a smidgen of personal fortitude to remove onself from the comforts of anonymous character assassination, or drop it.

Now, I will finish any last replies necessary, then I’ll be gone for while(at least) for all the nice people, thank you, I will continue reading and searching before doing anything drastic.

bye