Why I am Drifting from Catholicism to Islam

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wth1257 said:
Sure, my confused late night ramblings ought not to be taken as definitive representations of Latin Theology. It was presented with little regard for proper representations, as my objections are emotional I felt it proper to give an emotional cathartic outburst at what I feel to be absurd in Christianity.

I’d be interested to see your thoughts on the Trinity
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If I said I understood the Trinity I would be neither Catholic nor Christian. I don’t understand it, I believe it because Jesus spoke of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He said,“The Father and I are one.” it is something well beyond human comprehension.

If you have problems with the Trinity, why not orthodox Judaism? It would seem they were there long before Muhammad. 🙂
 
rwoehmke said:
If I said I understood the Trinity I would be neither Catholic nor Christian. I don’t understand it, I believe it because Jesus spoke of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He said,“The Father and I are one.” it is something well beyond human comprehension.
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Well what was wrong with my portrayal of the Trinity?

If you have problems with the Trinity, why not orthodox Judaism? It would seem they were there long before Muhammad. 🙂

Judaism is to ethnocentric for my tastes.
 
rwoehmke said:
If I said I understood the Trinity I would be neither Catholic nor Christian. I don’t understand it, I believe it because Jesus spoke of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He said,“The Father and I are one.” it is something well beyond human comprehension.
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Well then, what was wrong with my portrayal of the Trinity?
If you have problems with the Trinity, why not orthodox Judaism? It would seem they were there long before Muhammad. 🙂
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Judaism is to ethnocentric for my tastes.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Allow me to remind you. The OP wrote:

Honestly I don’t see how this is anything but a rather silly idea wrapped in sophisticated Aristotelian and Scholastic language to make it appear coherent.

What you’re doing is the same–employing “sophisticated Aristotelian and scholastic language to make” your assertion “appear coherent.” 🙂
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I didn’t even mention Aristotle, nor those dastardly Scholastics.😃 Instead, my argument is founded upon the Wahdat-al-Wajud of Muhyi ad-Din, al-Shaykh al-Akbar (better known as “Ibn Arabi”).
 
wth1257 said:
God s omnipotent, yet He must kill himself, excuse me His Son, no excuse me, the human nature of his Son, which is what died, of course that’s not the sacrifice as human nature is not infinite perfection, so Christ was sacrifices, his human nature is what died, yet that was not the totality of the sacrifice, but all of Christ was sacrificed? Am I missing something? Does this make any sense? I really think this doctrine can only survive so long as the issue is examined episodically rather than the totality of the concept.
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This thought that only Christ’s humanity died at the Crucifixion seems Gnostic and Arian to me. As an admirer of Athanasius and Ephrem the Deacon I feel in Christian Charity it would be just to inform you of Christ’s Nature.

Proposing that only one aspect of the Nature of Christ died at the Crucifixion is wrong. Christ was the Unity of God and Man. Both Fully Christ, not two parallel lines, but rather two halves of a circle: He cannot be complete without both Aspects existing with the other In Him. To claim that only one Existence (Man) was Crucified goes against this. Even His God-“ness” was Crucified. Look in the Gospel when He says “My God, My God…Why have you abandoned me?” His spirit is entirely suffering with His humanity. He didn’t say “Oh one minute mom, this’ll all be over soon. It stings a little but don’t worry because only one of my Natures is suffering, haha”. Yes, the Human Nature of Christ stopped living according to science at that point, but the presence of the Humanity (Christ’s Flesh on the Cross) still existed in unity with His spirit which He commended to the care of the Father (“Into Your Hands I commend my spirit”, He didn’t say “Just a few days and I’ll be back together again”). His burial, descent into Gehenna, and Resurrection all demonstrated a continued Unity of His Nature and brining it outside of the “episodic” examination you demonstrated a dislike for.

I hope this is accurate. I’m not putting forth an official Church teaching here, I’m just using the theology I know to hypothesize. I apologize if this is wrong, but I figured I’d try to correct an idea that seemed incorrect to me.
 
SedesDomi said:
I didn’t even mention Aristotle, nor those dastardly Scholastics.😃 Instead, my argument is founded upon the Wahdat-al-Wajud of Muhyi ad-Din, al-Shaykh al-Akbar (better known as “Ibn Arabi”).
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Wahdat-al-Wajud

This is a non Islamic concept. The person you mentio0ned is considered a heretic by maintsream islam
 
wth1257 said:
Are you stalking me?

I have specifically said I seriously doubt Catholicism, the options available there would allow me to choose “agnostic” or “Christian” I didn’t feel comfortable identifying myself as a Christian as I couldn’t, in good conscience, present myself as representative of the Catholic Faith given my doubts concerning the religion
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No, I don’t stalk. I do, however, read that board and I recognized your name. Some of your posts at that board are actually anti-Islamic. It looks like you take inconsistent positions. Stir the pot a little more?
 
Here’s a “irrational” position that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe (and another point where Mormonism departs from Christianity)

God created everything that is not God

God did not use His own essense to create the universe or other spirits. It was (and continues to be in maintaining existence apart from God) purely an act of God’s will

God did not somehow come along and re-fashion whatever was already existing into the universe–there was nothing, nada, zilch, zip, zero.

This belief drove the pagans (Greeks) crazy when they first encountered it. It was utterly irrational, how can something come from nothing?

My point?

If Muslims can accept this irrationality what is the big problem with God being 3 Eternal Persons who are 1 God?

Logic & natural reason can handle neither position–we (Christians) know and believe it because of divine revelation.
 
Sister_Amy said:
God, when He commanded it!

When He told the Children of Israel, through Moses:
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (Deut 6:4)

When you can read the prayer of Hannah in 1 Sam 2:2:
There is no one holy ** like the LORD**;
there is no one besides you;
there is no Rock like our God.

And in 2 Sam 7:22:
How great you are, O Sovereign LORD! **There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, **as we have heard with our own ears.

And when Jesus was asked what was the most important commandment, he declared in Mark 12:29 that it is this:
’Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.’

And what did Muhammad come to teach the people? God told him what to say, He revealed ch. 112:1:
Say, He is Allah (GOD), the ONE!

That’s what makes tawheed correct–it is what all the messengers have preached, it is the truth from my Lord and from your Lord.

So you quote, out of context, from writings you consider corrupt, to “prove” that God told us that what He told us more correctly in those writings later was wrong?

We both say that God informed us, the people of God, about the number of “persons” of which He is by nature.

You say God said He is one person.
We say God said He is three persons.

Why are you correct and we are wrong?

…additionally, why do you use “corrupt” writings as “proof” when simply using your “true” writings would be sufficient?
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Sister_Amy said:
God, when He commanded it!

When He told the Children of Israel, through Moses:
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (Deut 6:4)

When you can read the prayer of Hannah in 1 Sam 2:2:
There is no one holy ** like the LORD**;
there is no one besides you;
there is no Rock like our God.

And in 2 Sam 7:22:
How great you are, O Sovereign LORD! **There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, **as we have heard with our own ears.

And when Jesus was asked what was the most important commandment, he declared in Mark 12:29 that it is this:
’Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.’

And what did Muhammad come to teach the people? God told him what to say, He revealed ch. 112:1:
Say, He is Allah (GOD), the ONE!

That’s what makes tawheed correct–it is what all the messengers have preached, it is the truth from my Lord and from your Lord.
Hello Sister Amy,

That’s not fair. There are plenty of biblical verses to teach us that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are divine persons.

Why have you dismissed those other biblical verses, if not to mis-lead us?
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Charlie_Zeaiter said:
Hello Sister Amy,

That’s not fair. There are plenty of biblical verses to teach us that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are divine persons.

Why have you dismissed those other biblical verses, if not to mis-lead us?
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Have you noticed? Christians, as least those with a bit of sense, simply admit that they don’t NEED any reason other than revelation given us by the Church to “justify” our beliefs, while “those others” always clamber around for whatever “reasonable” rationale might sound good to convince the “not yet a believer”.

Lying to convert another is quite acceptable to some, I’m afraid.
 
jdnrite01 said:
No, I don’t stalk. I do, however, read that board and I recognized your name. Some of your posts at that board are actually anti-Islamic. It looks like you take inconsistent positions. Stir the pot a little more?
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No post that I made is anti-Islamic, the only thing close to that was my protests regarding global Shariah Law. Those protests had much more to do with human nature than Islam.

You have claimed I am a liar and have again dropped half articulated accusations, if you have one shred of evidence I am lying about my past then please present it.

Call my bluff, ask to see my facebook, you can have a chat with my former youth minister. His name is last name Walden, first name Mike, in Louisiana, where he now teaches religion at a Catholic High School.

I have given you the name, and order of the Priest who Baptized me, my confirmation name, my Youth Minister’s name, where he lives, I have made numerous references to obscure French Scholastics and Catholic Theologians, go to my facebook and you will, in my pictures, see me posing with three friends at St. Paul of the Cross Monastery in Pittsburg, in that monastery is the “Crypt” where the Monks keep tombs and numerous relics, I would be delighted to give you a detailed description of this very private room as I spent several hours there lecturing on St. Jemma, the Patron Saint of our LifeTeen trip to the Monestary, my DTS Chapter, which I helped establish and recruit for, did a program for her.

Now, is there any other information you would like to know to prove my Catholic “Credentials”? I have given you Plethora, rather personal, information to satisfy your suspicions, on the very message board you cite I identify myself as a Catholic who discerned the Priesthood during much of High School.
 
wth1257 said:
No post that I made is anti-Islamic, the only thing close to that was my protests regarding global Shariah Law. Those protests had much more to do with human nature than Islam.

You have claimed I am a liar and have again dropped half articulated accusations, if you have one shred of evidence I am lying about my past then please present it.

Call my bluff, ask to see my facebook, you can have a chat with my former youth minister. His name is last name Walden, first name Mike, in Louisiana, where he now teaches religion at a Catholic High School.

I have given you the name, and order of the Priest who Baptized me, my confirmation name, my Youth Minister’s name, where he lives, I have made numerous references to obscure French Scholastics and Catholic Theologians, go to my facebook and you will, in my pictures, see me posing with three friends at St. Paul of the Cross Monastery in Pittsburg, in that monastery is the “Crypt” where the Monks keep tombs and numerous relics, I would be delighted to give you a detailed description of this very private room as I spent several hours there lecturing on St. Jemma, the Patron Saint of our LifeTeen trip to the Monestary, my DTS Chapter, which I helped establish and recruit for, did a program for her.

Now, is there any other information you would like to know to prove my Catholic “Credentials”? I have given you Plethora, rather personal, information to satisfy your suspicions, on the very message board you cite I identify myself as a Catholic who discerned the Priesthood during much of High School.
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Forgetting about Him being the Son of God, and forgetting about the resurrection…

I would like to know why you think the crucifixion of Jesus is worthy of denial.
 
Could LifeTeen be one reason you have grown away from the Catholic church? Considering what has become of its founder if you were really into group that must have had an effect on you.
 
wth1257 said:
Why is it worthy of beleiving?
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A number of reasons…
  • It fulfills ancient prophecy
  • It does not contradict history
  • It is supported by Tradition
Would you mind explaining why you think it is worthy of denial?
 
wth1257 said:
Why is it worthy of beleiving?
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wth1257, if you don’t accept Jesus’ death and ressurrection, if you think that the trinity is a silly man made construct, if you think the crusades were to ‘punish’ unbelievers then why is it that you describe yourself as drifting from Catholicism ?

What is it about christianity that causes you to not have left already ?

I can’t see anything from what you’ve posted that would suggest that you haven’t already left or that in fact you see anything good in Christianity at all.

If that’s the case, then why are you posting here ?
 
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