Why I am Drifting from Catholicism to Islam

[swariffin]

Actually, if you refuse to save innocent lives by denying your faith, then you are immoral. Same goes for saving your own life. Your life is precious. If you care more about lying to a murderer, than your own life, then you do not value life.

So, you bow to a murderer? My life indeed is precious, but my God is far more precious. Unfortunately, my God does not allow me even to lie to my murderer to spare my life, and later stab him from the back. My God teach me to love my enemy. It is difficult, and does not make sense to me. But, for sure, I know that it must be from God. Why it is so? Because if ALL human in this world become His deciple, there should be no more murderer around. It will be a happy ending.

If my God allow me to lie to my persecutor and later escape, then logically the persecutor can also lie that he has follow my belief, and finally take my life too. Why do God allow one party to lie but not allowing lies to another? That will make God unjust.

 

[kalt]

You’re free to choose whatever religion you choose. I think it’s great that you’re choosing w/ your head–that you’re doing honest, open-minded research–and aren’t just choosing because it’s the “cool” religion du jour. So many college students jump on the bandwagon, simply because it’s different, seems to make more sense, is easier to understand, and mostly, is a “shocking” choice.

In earlier times, it was the Moonies. Female students decided not to shave their legs. The guys let their hair grow. In essence, they did anything that was “other”. Somehow that seems “intelligent” to college students. They seem to think that making “other” choices shows to the world that they are independent thinkers. That they don’t just follow the mold.

But most do that without much thought.

You’re right to look carefully at the Catholic doctrines that seem bothersome to you. I applaud you for doing the research it takes to fully (and truly) understand the doctrines, instead of jetisoning your religion without thought. So many college students close their minds to anything familiar and are enthralled with anything knew (to them) and shocking (to their families).

There is truth in all religions. Your job is to find the religion that has the totality of truth. It’s too easy settle for some of the truth and a lot of easy-to-believe fluff, or some truth and not much else.

Good luck in your search. Continue to keep your mind and heart open.

So, I have begun a serious study of Islam and fin a great deal of beauty and merrit in the religion. I was raised Catholic. I have always had a fantastic relationship with my Parish Priests, and even seriously considered entering the Priesthood for several years. I am certainly no theologian; however, I have at least a cursory knowledge of the faith. Starting in 10th grade I became extremely interested in the Scholastic works of St. Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, and Jacques Maritain. I enjoyed Maritain’s magnum opus on moral philosophy and his biography of St Aquinas, I just recently read “Razing the Bastions“, and I have listened to just about ever recorded speech Peter Kreeft ever made. My point is that, while I am not Karl Rahner, I am not utterly ignorant of the faith I was bought up in and would like substantive answers not cliché’s.

Now, I held a fairly negative view of Islam until about a year ago. I never harbored any blatant ignorance towards Muslims or even so much Islam, but I did very much consider it a religion, “Spread by the Sword” as opposed to the Church which was spread by the “blood of the Martyrs”, the old Crusader stereotypes, you know them, most pre-Vatican II books on Church History give you an idea(such as “Founded on a Rock”). However that view has begun to change due to two principle forces. Firstly getting to know individual Muslims, and secondly reading Muslim Scholars and the Qur’an. Now, the primary purpose of this thread is for me to present to you, the main reason’s I would consider Christianity dubious.

Firstly there is the concept of the Trinity. Honestly I don’t see how this is anything but a rather silly idea wrapped in sophisticated Aristotelian and Scholastic language to make it appear coherent. “No, it’s not a polytheistic idea, God is one being but three persons” I really don’t see how this is other than linguistic acrobatics. Yes, the Trinity is a “great mystery”, we all know the charming story of St Augustine walking on the beach and meeting the young man, but can anyone honestly say this idea doesn’t strike you as intuitively false? I mean most five year old children find it an absurd reason until clever sophists can convince them that the patently absurd in conceivable. I’m sure there are all sorts of platitudes thrusting forth one’s simple pious faith, and that absurdity is no affront to the “truth” and all other sorts of generalized evasions that divert the issue to anything but the incoherence of this doctrine, yet the incoherence remains, and I think most Christian, if they are honest with themselves, would have to admit it is at least intuitively dubious, if not patently silly.

Secondly there is the matter of Jesus’ Crucifixion. I know, “God is just, and infinite sin must be reconciled by and infinitely perfect sacrifice” or whatever formulation you wish, however, Christopher Hitchen’s hyperbole aside, it is a good point. God s omnipotent, yet He must kill himself, excuse me His Son, no excuse me, the human nature of his Son, which is what died, of course that’s not the sacrifice as human nature is not infinite perfection, so Christ was sacrifices, his human nature is what died, yet that was not the totality of the sacrifice, but all of Christ was sacrificed? Am I missing something? Does this make any sense? I really think this doctrine can only survive so long as the issue is examined episodically rather than the totality of the concept.

 

[swariffin]

Why would an all powerful God have to sacrifice anyone to atone for sins committed against His moral law?

Dear Wth,

Think it simple. If I offend you, only you can forgive me right? Why should I ask forgiveness for my offense against you to somebody like Charlie Zeiter, for instance. It does not valid. Forget about the manner that Adam fall into sin. If human has sin against God, then only God can forgive, correct?

Christ death as the atonement, because we believe that Jesus is the word of God, and is God (If you still believe in John 1:1). When such word of God give the atonement is the same as God grant forgiveness to sins. Christ atonement in the manner of His death, is the proof that God is willingly forgive sins.

When human was willingly fall into sins, then God must show the willingness to forgive sins. That willingness is accomplished in God’s word whom we called as Jesus.

By the way, if you don’t understand Trinity, then you should not be able to understand that God is uncreated and eternal, while Quran is also uncreated and eternal. That will make 2 beings (plural) uncreated and eternal. One is God, the other one is a book named Quran. Looks like one figure destined to carry a book where-ever and when-ever he goes forever and ever. No muslims can satisfy this duality in this forum.

 

[cgunning]

I would encourage the OP to relax, get a few nights of good sleep, and take your time. Both religions arent going anywhere and there is no rush to join or quit anything.

I THINK YOU NEED A GOOD NIGHTS SLEEP AND PRACTISE YOUR FAITH BECAUSE I MAY BE OLD BUT BUT MY RELIGION WILL BRING ME TO EVERLASTHING LIFE IN THE LORD IF I LIVE ACORDING TO HIS WILL,SO THER FORE MY RELIGION IS BRINGING ME SOMEWERE,AND THATS MY AND YOURS ENTERNAL HOME.GET A LIFE IN THE LORD FROM A OLD MAN

 

[zerinus]

Perhaps that is where you need to begin. Judging by the lame responses you have received from the Catholic side, I can sympathize with your disillusionment of Catholicism; but what is it that attracts you to Islam? “Beauty and merit” is something that can be found in most established religions with a long history, if you wanted to look for it. You can find it in Buddhism, or Confucianism too, and their long cultural history and heritage. But that alone does not seem to me to be sufficient grounds for adopting a religion. I guess it all depends on what you are looking for in a religion in the first place. So what attracts you to Islam?

zerinus

No answers to this one, wth1257?

zerinus

 

[santodomingo]

Hello wth1257,

Sounds like you are soul searching. The same thing happened to me when I was in my first year of university. It must be a typical thing for an 18-year-old! The difference is that I was an atheist before the crisis and after the crisis was a christian.

It´s natural to have doubts and to question everything you have been taught up to now at your age (I did it too). But please don´t confuse the Church of Christ with various distortions you may have picked up. Your sin is also a stumbling block when you come to considering your faith. Ask yourself how much of what you find unatractive about catholicism is due to your sin.

And don´t just ask yourself or us or any other human being, no matter how clever he may be; ask God!!

A few more questions:

Do you often spent an hour in prayer on your knees before the Blessed Sacrament? Do you go to Holy Communion and Confession as regularly as possible? Do you pray the Rosary every day? Do you read and meditate on the Scriptures? Do you read good catholic literature that instructs you in your faith and encourages you to love God and His Church? Do you fast and pray? Do you share the good news of Christ with your friends? Do you give generously to the Church and charity? Do you try to carry out works of mercy with the poor and weak?

If the answer to all these questions is YES and yet you still believe the Catholic Church is wrong, I would advise you to convert immediately. If not, try living like this for 2 months. Afterwards come back to the forum and tell us how you´re doing.

 

[cgunning]

:shamrock2:

if any ppl want to leave the kingdom of god then let them do that.i am gratefull to my lord jesus that he showed me the true way of salvation.the only true way,JESUS CHRIST.and at 1st i also couldn’t guess correctly that what is holy trinity.but later here my friends made it clear to me.so i think that the trinity(holy) is a very clear concept.&if mr.wth will read the correct history then he will guess that islam spreaded with violence.

PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOREVER TILL THE END OF TIME, NOW YOU COME TO KNOW THE TRUTH FOR WITHOUT JESUS OUR DIVINE SAVIOUR WE ARE LOST

 

[Glaucon]

Pardon my curiosity, but I’d like to know if you’ve already read the hadiths. Reading these traditions regarding the prophet Muhammad could give one a much better perspective when it comes to interpreting the Qur’an. And the commentaries too.

So could you explain these hadiths for me, please?

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298:
Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).

Ewwwwww… Recall that Aisha was Muhammad’s child-bride.

Volume 1, Book 11, Number 662:

---

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, “Listen and obey (your chief) even if an Ethiopian whose head is like a raisin were made your chief.”

Doesn’t that strike you as somewhat racist?

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 105:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, “If somebody keeps a horse in Allah’s Cause motivated by his faith in Allah and his belief in His Promise, then he will be rewarded on the Day of Resurrection for what the horse has eaten or drunk and for its dung and urine.”

Again… Ewwww.

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, ‘O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!’ "

This is one of the most often-quoted hadiths in Middle Eastern mosques, by the way.

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:

Narrated ‘Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

No comment.

Those were from this MSA compendium of Islamic texts, by the way, so I hope you won’t go about accusing me of using an infidel’s “inaccurate” translation. Thanks.

 

[thedavidwilson]

So, I have begun a serious study of Islam and fin a great deal of beauty and merrit in the religion.

Firstly getting to know individual Muslims, and secondly reading Muslim Scholars and the Qur’an. Now, the primary purpose of this thread is for me to present to you, the main reason’s I would consider Christianity dubious.

Are you sure you are not a muslim posing as a Catholic to try to creat doubt in the Catholic faith? You know muslims are allowed to lie to spread their faith? Check out something called "taqiyya”.

If you are a Catholic check out a book calle Reliance of the Traveller. It is a handbook of sharia law written by muslims, for muslims and is endorsed by several promient mufti’s and universities in the muslim world. Especailly check out the punishment for apostasy (death) and what constitues apostasy (e.g. mocking the name of allah).

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Are you sure you are not a muslim posing as a Catholic to try to creat doubt in the Catholic faith? You know muslims are allowed to lie to spread their faith? Check out something called "taqiyya”.

If you are a Catholic check out a book calle Reliance of the Traveller. It is a handbook of sharia law written by muslims, for muslims and is endorsed by several promient mufti’s and universities in the muslim world. Especailly check out the punishment for apostasy (death) and what constitues apostasy (e.g. mocking the name of allah).

The OP hasn’t posted since June 9th.

Of course he’s a muslim just messing with us. He was obviously never a Catholic, or was never anything but a nominal (non) Catholic, and is playing the taqiyya game with us infidels.

This is no loss for Christendom, having this character “gone”, as you can’t lose what you never had.

He’ll either get sick of the vapid “flowery” simplicity of islam, or become a suicidal slave to it, or not be humble enough to leave it and “adjust it (adjust his interpretation of islam)” to make it “reasonable”, which is what the vast majority of good “well behaved moderate” muslims do.

Or, he’ll be graced with seeing that he needs to return home to God in His Church.

 

[theistgal]

saint-mike.org/spcdc/bbs/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=855

…do a “find” for “There’s the rub. Jews (historically anyway)”

Also: peterkreeft.com/topics-more/religions_islam.htm

According to the links you provided, the piece you quoted earlier as being by Peter Kreeft was actually written by Bro. Ignatius Mary.

The second link, to Dr. Kreeft’s website, is not the same as the one that begins “There’s the rub. Jews (historically anyway) …”

I am sure you didn’t mean any confusion, but it looked as though you were trying to say Dr. Kreeft wrote the “There’s the rub” piece. He is actually a lot more nuanced towards Islam than Bro. Ignatius Mary, which is why I wanted to clarify this.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

According to the links you provided, the piece you quoted earlier as being by Peter Kreeft was actually written by Bro. Ignatius Mary.

The second link, to Dr. Kreeft’s website, is not the same as the one that begins “There’s the rub. Jews (historically anyway) …”

I am sure you didn’t mean any confusion, but it looked as though you were trying to say Dr. Kreeft wrote the “There’s the rub” piece. He is actually a lot more nuanced towards Islam than Bro. Ignatius Mary, which is why I wanted to clarify this.

Yeah. I just wanted to supply links to each thing, which I knew weren’t ONE thing, but two.

I should have more “clear”, apparently, with what the “also” meant before the second link.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Glaucon:

Pardon my curiosity, but I’d like to know if you’ve already read the hadiths. Reading these traditions regarding the prophet Muhammad could give one a much better perspective when it comes to interpreting the Qur’an. And the commentaries too.

Commentaries and hadiths are useful, but it’s better to start with the Qur’an, and then supplement it with the appropriate context from the biographies/hadiths/commentaries. What you’ve done below is actually pull hadiths out of context… requiring them to need explaining as well!

So could you explain these hadiths for me, please?

Sure!

Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).

Ewwwwww… Recall that Aisha was Muhammad’s child-bride.

Aisha, may God be pleased with her, was Muhammad’s favorite wife. The hadiths which she has narrated are invaluable in the development of Islamic law, especially regarding women.

The first sentence describes how they would use the same pot of water to wash after being intimate. This sentence alone means a lot. It means that a person who washes with water does not make that same water impure–because it can be used by someone else. It also means that a husband and wife can take a bath from the same pot. This is all useful especially in cultures where there is not a lot of water.

The second sentence describes how Muhammad was intimate with his wife during her period. This is important, because some cultures would banish women during menstruation, and the men would not be allowed to even touch them. In Islam, a man is not allowed to have intercourse with his menstruating wife, but as we can see in the hadith, he is allowed to be intimate with her in other ways (as she is allowed to be with him) during her period. This is pretty important, as without this hadith someone might think that Muslim men aren’t allowed to even touch their wives during menstruation.

The last sentence demonstrates that a woman who is menstruating does not make water impure if she touches it. This is significant because other cultures have a different opinion–thinking that anything a menstruating woman touches becomes ritually impure. Not the case in Islam.

Being modest when talking abotu these things is good, but imagine if Aisha had not narrated this hadith, how people might misunderstand Islamic law?

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, “Listen and obey (your chief) even if an Ethiopian whose head is like a raisin were made your chief.”

Doesn’t that strike you as somewhat racist?

Actually it’s quite the opposite of racist. The Arabs at the time WERE racist, and very tribal. Muhammad was telling them that they needed to obey their chief, regardless of what foolish complaint they might have against him. Discriminating against people based on their race, skin color, language, etc., isn’t allowed in Islam.

Continued below…

 

[Sister_Amy]

Continued from above…

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, “If somebody keeps a horse in Allah’s Cause motivated by his faith in Allah and his belief in His Promise, then he will be rewarded on the Day of Resurrection for what the horse has eaten or drunk and for its dung and urine.”

Again… Ewwww.

Again, I guess you’re just shy to talk about these things. But if you have ever had a pet, you will know that you have to feed that pet, and give it drink, and you have to clean up after it. If you’ve got a cat, it has a litter box you have to clean out. If you have a dog you have to take it out so it can urinate and defecate, and sometimes you even have to bury its feces or pick it up to throw away. And these are small animals! Imagine something as large as a horse!! It needs to be fed, and watered, and taken care of. All of that is a responsibility on the person who owns it. The hadith is saying that because the person owns the horse because of his faith, then he will be rewarded for all the effort he had to put into the horse–feeding it, cleaning it, cleaning up after it, and so on. It’s a metaphor to show for how many things God is going to reward the believers.

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, ‘O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!’ "

This is one of the most often-quoted hadiths in Middle Eastern mosques, by the way.

I’m not surprised that this is common today, because the Palestinians see themselves being fought by the Jews–yes? There is an idea here that the fighting will be so brutal that even the land will be on the side of the Muslims against the oppression. Right now there is oppression on both sides and it’s a political issue. But you can consider the hadith to be… well… prophetic.

Narrated ‘Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

No comment.

Aisha is one of the most important women in Islam, thanks to her contributions in the matters of hadith and fiqh. It’s reported that Muhammad said about her, for his companions to take half of their religion from “this young lady.” She was curious, very intelligent, and had a great memory.

Those were from this MSA compendium of Islamic texts, by the way, so I hope you won’t go about accusing me of using an infidel’s “inaccurate” translation. Thanks.

Naahhhhhhhhhh.

 

[Contarini]

The OP hasn’t posted since June 9th.

Of course he’s a muslim just messing with us. He was obviously never a Catholic, or was never anything but a nominal (non) Catholic, and is playing the taqiyya game with us infidels.

]
You have not one shred of evidence for this weird and uncharitable supposition.

I will say again what I have said before: if this person and others who visit these forums do convert to Islam, you and others who have treated them with contempt and have engaged in vitriolic and abusive rhetoric against Islam will answer to God at the judgment for their souls. I don’t understand why you can’t see how much you are strengthening the (not intrinsically very strong) case of Islam by your approach.

Edwin

 

[thedavidwilson]

]
You have not one shred of evidence for this weird and uncharitable supposition.

I will say again what I have said before: if this person and others who visit these forums do convert to Islam, you and others who have treated them with contempt and have engaged in vitriolic and abusive rhetoric against Islam will answer to God at the judgment for their souls. I don’t understand why you can’t see how much you are strengthening the (not intrinsically very strong) case of Islam by your approach.

Edwin

The OP does seem a little contrived. Those of us who debate muslims frequently on the internet quickly recognize the points the OP is putting forward and questions raised as standard muslim questions (and jibs) at Catholicism.

 

[Contarini]

The OP does seem a little contrived. Those of us who debate muslims frequently on the internet quickly recognize the points the OP is putting forward and questions raised as standard muslim questions (and jibs) at Catholicism.

Perhaps you should debate less, and speak more often to struggling human beings.

I have a personal stake in this, since my dad’s cousin converted to Sufi Islam (she was Methodist, but her husband, who I believe led her into Islam, was a former Catholic). I know for a fact that sincere seekers do sometimes abandon Christianity for Islam. The attempt to pretend otherwise does great harm to Christianity.

If I am wrong, the worst that happens is that we get a chance to defend Christianity and perhaps give some dishonest Muslim propagandist a chance to snicker at us. But if I am right, then you are putting in danger a soul for whom Christ died.

Edwin

 

[inJESUS]

The last sentence demonstrates that a woman who is menstruating does not make water impure if she touches it. This is significant because other cultures have a different opinion–thinking that anything a menstruating woman touches becomes ritually impure. Not the case in Islam.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Perhaps you should debate less, and speak more often to struggling human beings.

I have a personal stake in this, since my dad’s cousin converted to Sufi Islam (she was Methodist, but her husband, who I believe led her into Islam, was a former Catholic). I know for a fact that sincere seekers do sometimes abandon Christianity for Islam. The attempt to pretend otherwise does great harm to Christianity.

If I am wrong, the worst that happens is that we get a chance to defend Christianity and perhaps give some dishonest Muslim propagandist a chance to snicker at us. But if I am right, then you are putting in danger a soul for whom Christ died.

Edwin

What is your concept of debate? You mischaracterize my interactions with muslims.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Subhanallah! Even as I was writing my post I was thinking about the counterargument which you have just presented!!

In fact, the Shi’a DO have the opinion that literal touching isn’t allowed during menstruation. But anyone who truly appreciates the Arabic language (even the English language) can see that this ayah is not literal. When it says do not approach/touch it is saying do not have intercourse.

The Shi’a do not accept hadith from Aisha… which is, in my opinion a real shame.

So let me close by saying that the opinion of the followers of Muhammad is what I said above. Intimacy is allowed but not intercourse. What you posted is actually an attempt to smear other Muslims, and it’s pretty sad. The Sunni scholars do NOT say Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, had intercourse with his wife, but that he fondled her and did not have intercourse.