Why I am Drifting from Catholicism to Islam

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I attacked muslims for doing nothing about the violence that islam perpetrates worldwide. They do nothing. But, they certainly know how to riot and kill and destroy churches over a cartoon!
i always agree with u friend.just not only in the present world but also at past muslims always violent to non muslims.islam taught violence,hate&killing non muslims.so we will always attack muslims&those inhuman islamic laws.
 
R_Not is not a Muslim. No taqiyya there, bub.

You’re straying from the issue. Based on what I know, true blue Muslims, whenever confronted with an issue they cannot explain away, resort to kicking up dust, just like what you’re doing right now.

Another approach would be ad hominem, or poisoning the well.

Yet another would be tu-quoque, or “hey, they do it too!!!”

You say you’re not a Muslim yet, but already you’re a Muslim “debater” in the making. Hurr hurr hurr hurr hurr.
Yes he is, he’s a secret Muslim.

Prove me wrong.

this isn’t kicking up dust, it’s a very fair request, I want to know how I would go about proveing a negative.

Now, as to my being a Muslim, I have been profoundly open, providing a tremendous amount of evidence to confirm my story, I have no need to address this further.
 
I do not think Wth is interested in this topic, so far. He is asking theological points, not about violence in Islam. If this were the case, he should read about the rise of Christianity and Islam to see the difference…there is no point repeating what Muslims are doing, we all know them…better go back in history and assess teachings and ideologies and the rise of Christianity and Islam, in case the OP is interested.
 
“R_Not is a Muslim practicing Taqiyya, he’s lambasting Muslim to create sympathy in Catholicism for Muslims”

once you refute that, I’d be delighted to refute your statement.
And you think that bothers me?

Try again.
 
Yes he is, he’s a secret Muslim.

Prove me wrong.

this isn’t kicking up dust, it’s a very fair request, I want to know how I would go about proveing a negative.

Now, as to my being a Muslim, I have been profoundly open, providing a tremendous amount of evidence to confirm my story, I have no need to address this further.
Oh well. Just remember, if you ain’t that patient to think things through with the others here, and find your Islamic apologetics falling apart, you can always hop on the waaaaaahmbulance.
 
Oh my this is getting too childish and uncharitable. Am off this thread. I’ll be more that happy to join your new thread Wth.
 
Oh my this is getting too childish and uncharitable. Am off this thread. I’ll be more that happy to join your new thread Wth.
Thank You:)

however I noted that a user already started a thread on “Islam and the Trinity” or something like that.

Perhapse that one will work?
 
And you think that bothers me?

Try again.
I’m not trying to bother you. If anyone here is not a Muslim I’d say you are, yet my charge about even you cannot be refuted, it was simply a round about reductio ad absurdum.
 
Thank You:)

however I noted that a user already started a thread on “Islam and the Trinity” or something like that.

Perhapse that one will work?
a bit old but you can read it…if you have more answers, you can open a new thread:)
 
I do not think Wth is interested in this topic, so far. He is asking theological points, not about violence in Islam. If this were the case, he should read about the rise of Christianity and Islam to see the difference…there is no point repeating what Muslims are doing, we all know them…better go back in history and assess teachings and ideologies and the rise of Christianity and Islam, in case the OP is interested.
You are right.

I think the whole problem is that history is not being taught anymore. We have a very left wing school system and they can’t even write the truth about McCarthy - and as Stalin, Hitler and so many others of that ilk said - repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. The opening of the USSR’s secret papers in 1994 or 1995, proved McCarthy correct - but no correction in our history books has been made.

And now with muslims getting fairy tales about islam and mohammed in our children’s history books in grade school in many states - we are going to have a worse problem than the one we have with such things as McCarthyism.

I think that is why sister amy, wth1257, and others are veering towards islam. The MSA is in our kid’s Universities and colleges and we have let them have their way with our kids, in some instances, for decades. Some Universities have had it in there since the late 1960s. And it is directly tied to the muslim brotherhood and funded by the wahabbi saudis.

So, my point is… good luck with that one. They, obviously, already have a mindset (or you could call it a brainwashing) that they are correct and the correct history is wrong. They won’t even look at anything that disagrees with them. I have read appeaser/apologist’s books on islam, and believe me - it can be tricky to find the problems if one thinks that islam is a-ok. And that along with our left wing media and political correctness - they are not getting the facts about what muslims are doing worldwide. We can’t even discuss the muslim slaughter of the Armenians. (Our own USA and British military would be found less than honorable too during that time - but we cannot discuss it for fear of ‘offending’.
 
Oh geez, and I forgot to mention TV and the movies - with the hollyweirdos following along the secularist/bash Christian theme - and our kids finding their history in movies - we can be assured that history is not being taught.
 
Oh geez, and I forgot to mention TV and the movies - with the hollyweirdos following along the secularist/bash Christian theme - and our kids finding their history in movies - we can be assured that history is not being taught.
we are exposed all the time to Islam in my country and Christians are still Christians. We even have islamic movies about Jesus and Mary but we all know they’re myth taken from legendary apocryphas. Knowledge is a weapon.Teach your kids about your faith and they will be able to distinguish Truth from falsehood.
 
You are right.

I think the whole problem is that history is not being taught anymore. We have a very left wing school system and they can’t even write the truth about McCarthy - and as Stalin, Hitler and so many others of that ilk said - repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. The opening of the USSR’s secret papers in 1994 or 1995, proved McCarthy correct - but no correction in our history books has been made.

And now with muslims getting fairy tales about islam and mohammed in our children’s history books in grade school in many states - we are going to have a worse problem than the one we have with such things as McCarthyism.

I think that is why sister amy, wth1257, and others are veering towards islam. The MSA is in our kid’s Universities and colleges and we have let them have their way with our kids, in some instances, for decades. Some Universities have had it in there since the late 1960s. And it is directly tied to the muslim brotherhood and funded by the wahabbi saudis.

So, my point is… good luck with that one. They, obviously, already have a mindset (or you could call it a brainwashing) that they are correct and the correct history is wrong. They won’t even look at anything that disagrees with them. I have read appeaser/apologist’s books on islam, and believe me - it can be tricky to find the problems if one thinks that islam is a-ok. And that along with our left wing media and political correctness - they are not getting the facts about what muslims are doing worldwide. We can’t even discuss the muslim slaughter of the Armenians. (Our own USA and British military would be found less than honorable too during that time - but we cannot discuss it for fear of ‘offending’.
My World History text taught that Islam was the result of sociological processes that melded Christianity and Eastern Religions.

You can discuss the Armenian genocide all you want. I read plenty of criticisms of Islam, just legitimate ones, not JihadWatch and petty insulting propaganda. There are plenty of criticisms that one can level against Islam without being a bigot.

Let’s look
1-The Scientific errors found in the Quran such as the claim that the Earth was created in six days
2-The intellectual stagnation that has plagued Islam since the 13th century
3-the lack of any historical evidence concerning numerous key claims, includeing but not limited to
a-The universality of revelation to insolent tribes
b-The universality of language
c-The origins of the Ka’bah
4-Quranic/institutionalized discouragement of intellectual criticism of Islam as we have finally seen emerge in Christendom

Those are four right off the top of my head, it’s not hard, and I would never ask you skip intellectual criticism. I ask only three things

1-It be civil/unbigoted
2-It be fair
3-It be academically rigorous
 
My World History text taught that Islam was the result of sociological processes that melded Christianity and Eastern Religions.

You can discuss the Armenian genocide all you want. I read plenty of criticisms of Islam, just legitimate ones, not JihadWatch and petty insulting propaganda. There are plenty of criticisms that one can level against Islam without being a bigot.

Let’s look
1-The Scientific errors found in the Quran such as the claim that the Earth was created in six days
2-The intellectual stagnation that has plagued Islam since the 13th century
3-the lack of any historical evidence concerning numerous key claims, includeing but not limited to
a-The universality of revelation to insolent tribes
b-The universality of language
c-The origins of the Ka’bah
4-Quranic/institutionalized discouragement of intellectual criticism of Islam as we have finally seen emerge in Christendom

Those are four right off the top of my head, it’s not hard, and I would never ask you skip intellectual criticism. I ask only three things

1-It be civil/unbigoted
2-It be fair
3-It be academically rigorous
As for unbigoted - that could be dependent on whether or not you want to believe it or not. many muslims deny this.

islam was based on the pagan religion of mohammed. He wanted to convert the Jews and Christians of his time so he tried to include the Bible stories in them, and also claimed that islam was one with the other two religions. It is false and he was laugh at quite often - until he realized that converting people by the sword worked very well indeed.

He even said that it was the Christians and Jews who distorted the Bible. And he said that because of the reason why the koran’s retelling of those stories were not accurate, and in fact quite kludgy. He said that since we rewrote the bible - we are condemned to hades. If muslims do that to islam then they will be condemned.

I don’t know what isn’t legitimate about jihadwatch. It is quite common for muslims not to like that site though - too much truth on one website, I suppose.

I posted this series of articles by Mr. Fjordman who discusses this stagnation in islam. They are rather long and I would suggest reading them at your leisure. Unfortunately for you they are on jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch and if you chose not to read them then we have no base to discuss since this is most of what I know of as far as the scientific stagnation within islam.

There are many books that touch on it, but this series of articles have been the best to put it in one area that I have found. I suppose reading books such as ‘The Legacy of Jihad’, and ‘The Myth of Islamic Tolerance’ would be ok too - but they are not light reading.

Fjordman: islam, the Greeks and the Scientific Revolution, Part 1
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/018190.php
Part2
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/018278.php
Part3
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/018368.php

Here is a website that has one article that touches on the scientific accomplishes that were not from muslims although they claim them for themselves;
frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=4D818187-782D-4AA9-BEFA-64C5A00D9677

The origins of the kabaa were of mohammed’s pagan religion. In fact, a statue of allah sat on top of it until mohammed destroyed it. mohammed almost included allah’s three sisters in islam also until someone suggested he not do that.

An article about allah’s daughters: bible.ca/islam/islam-allahs-daughters.htm

Here is an article about Hubal or allah: bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god.htm

An article about the kabaa: bible.ca/islam/islam-kaba-history.htm

I am not sure about your remark about not criticizing islam/mohammed. That is something the muslims control and will kill people over. The internet allows for safe (somewhat) discourse, but you have seen the reactions to the discussions. Overemotional, name calling, etc. islam just doesn’t stand up as being peaceful, nor have our best interests at heart. There are three ways to have peace with islam: death, conversion or subjugation (dhimmitude)
 
I have often wondered about the notion of deception being permitted under certain conditions.

Can someone who knows spell out the actual teaching for me? Been curious for some time.
 
simply because lying is sanctioned doesn’t mean that ALL Muslims are secret terrorists.

You’re statement is indefeasible, both intellectually and morally, either you know that, or there is no point carrying on this conversation.
Actually, jihad is something that all muslims are commanded to do. There are different levels of jihad and with the violent kind being the most glorified. Those who wage this jihad are going to get all that 72 virgins and junk.

If muslims are not going to do the fighting then they are to support the jihadists, their families, old jihadists, etc. The lowest of the jihad is that ‘inner struggle’. And jihad tactics can take on many forms - and taqiyya/kithman - deception being part of it.

Yes, I believe that some, very few, muslims don’t do this - I believe that the majority do though. This is why so many are on these threads pulling out the abrogated verses on the koran and trying to tell us how peaceful islam is while doing nothing to stop the violence worldwide. No riots, no massive effort to stop the saudis from financing the jihadists in pakistan, no effort to stop anything, not a peep in fact. And I am not talking about an individual here or there - it will take clerics, imams or whatever you want to call them to head up leagues of people to stop the violence worldwide.

Instead what do we hear? fatwas are issued against people who draw cartoons and movies. New jihads are renewed against India, the USA, the West, etc. The same behavior you are exhibiting - the outrage - that someone, an infidel, has the audacity to call any and all muslims on it. While muslims worry about their image - the slaughter goes on. CAIR, the MSA, so many mosques and muslim schools, are taking saudi money and we are finding out that they have texts (some they xeroxed before throwing away per orders of our government) and are teaching their children to hate and wage jihad.

Get over it. It is the truth.
 
I have often wondered about the notion of deception being permitted under certain conditions.

Can someone who knows spell out the actual teaching for me? Been curious for some time.
‘war is deception’, mohammed

When muslims are in the realm of war (infidel lands - dar al harb) deception is indeed allowed, until the lands come under sharia law which then will make them dar al islam. But, then the infidels are either dead, converted, or subjugated (dhimmi).

here are various articles on the subject of deception in islam:
islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml

Kithman is for shiite muslims
answering-islam.org.uk/Index/K/kithman.html

taqiya or taqiyya for sunni muslims
answering-islam.org.uk/Index/K/kithman.html

youtube video about lying in islam
youtube.com/watch?v=AMc3XMB6ZZg

answering-islam.org/Index/L/lying.html
a quote from the above website:
The common muslim belief is that it is allowable to tell a falsehood on four occasions:
1st, to save one’s life;
2nd, to effect a peace or reconciliation;
3rd, to persuade a woman;
4th, on the occasion of a journey or expedition.

Muslims can indeed lie.

Here is the direct quote from the holy book they call the koran…

in the Qur’an, Allah says: “Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness (vain) in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.” Surah 2:225. The principal also has support in the Qur’an 3:28 and 16:106.

“Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them” (Qur’an 3:28).

The Sunni Qur’an commentator Ibn Kathir explains that in this verse “Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers.” However, exempted from this rule were “those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda’ said, ‘We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.’ Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, ‘The Tuqyah [taqiyyah] is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.’"

This practice is also sanctioned by the Qur’an warning Muslims that those who forsake Islam will be consigned to Hell — except those forced to do so, but who remain true Muslims inwardly: “Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters unbelief — except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith — but such as open their breast to unbelief, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful penalty” (Qur’an 16:106). Ibn Kathir explains that “the scholars agreed that if a person is forced into disbelief, it is permissible for him to either go along with them in the interests of self-preservation, or to refuse.”

Moreover, Sahih Bukhari, the hadith collection that Sunnis consider the most reliable, records three times Muhammad’s statement that “war is deceit.” Are we to suppose that no Sunni who reads that thinks it is a principle worth implementing?

Another hadith in a collection considered reliable by Sunnis has Muhammad saying that lying is permissible “in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)” (Sahih Muslim 6303). Muhammad also gave the killer of Ka’b bin al-Ashraf permission to lie in order to deceive Ka’b and lure him to his death.

one thing that can be said about islam is that proof abounds as to proving it is not a very nice ‘religion’.
 
danielpipes.org/article/990

The purpose of jihad, in other words, is not directly to spread the Islamic faith but to extend sovereign Muslim power (faith, of course, often follows the flag). Jihad is thus unabashedly offensive in nature, with the eventual goal of achieving Muslim dominion over the entire globe.

Jihad did have two variant meanings through the centuries, one more radical, one less so. The first holds that Muslims who interpret their faith differently are infidels and therefore legitimate targets of jihad. (This is why Algerians, Egyptians and Afghans have found themselves, like Americans and Israelis, so often the victims of jihadist aggression.) The second meaning, associated with mystics, rejects the legal definition of jihad as armed conflict and tells Muslims to withdraw from the worldly concerns to achieve spiritual depth.

Jihad in the sense of territorial expansion has always been a central aspect of Muslim life. That’s how Muslims came to rule much of the Arabian Peninsula by the time of the Prophet Muhammad’s death in 632. It’s how, a century later, Muslims had conquered a region from Afghanistan to Spain. Subsequently, jihad spurred and justified Muslim conquests of such territories as India, Sudan, Anatolia, and the Balkans.

Today, jihad is the world’s foremost source of terrorism, inspiring a worldwide campaign of violence by self-proclaimed jihadist groups.

Jihadists then enslaved tens of thousands of females and children, forced them to convert to Islam, sent them on forced marches, beat them and set them to hard labor. The women and older girls also suffered ritual gang-rape, genital mutilation and a life of sexual servitude.

Sudan’s state-sponsored jihad has caused about 2 million deaths and the displacement of another 4 million - making it the greatest humanitarian catastrophe of our era.

Despite jihad’s record as a leading source of conflict for 14 centuries, causing untold human suffering, academic and Islamic apologists claim it permits only defensive fighting, or even that it is entirely non-violent. Three American professors of Islamic studies colorfully make the latter point, explaining jihad as:

An “effort against evil in the self and every manifestation of evil in society” (Ibrahim Abu-Rabi, Hartford Seminary);
“Resisting apartheid or working for women’s rights” (Farid Eseck, Auburn Seminary), and
“Being a better student, a better colleague, a better business partner. Above all, to control one’s anger” (Bruce Lawrence, Duke University).
It would be wonderful were jihad to evolve into nothing more aggressive than controlling one’s anger, but that will not happen simply by wishing away a gruesome reality. To the contrary, the pretense of a benign jihad obstructs serious efforts at self-criticism and reinterpretation.

The path away from terrorism, conquest and enslavement lies in Muslims forthrightly acknowledging jihad’s historic role, followed by apologies to jihad’s victims, developing an Islamic basis for nonviolent jihad and (the hardest part) actually ceasing to wage violent jihad.

Unfortunately, such a process of redemption is not now under way; violent jihad will probably continue until it is crushed by a superior military force (Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, please take note). Only when jihad is defeated will moderate Muslims finally find their voice and truly begin the hard work of modernizing Islam.
 
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