Why is Catholic Bashing soooo popular?

[jake23]

Forgive spelling and grammer I am typing on blackberry

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Impalass,
Why are you so angry?

 

[impalass]

Again you response is not relevant to mine! What thread are you reading? For one catholics don’t take all of the bible literally but believe it is insperational! Second what information we do have shows the writers where of the catholic college which makes them bishops and last you should change on your profile that you are catholic because apparantly you are not! Anyways so what do you have to say that relavent to catholic bashing seeing that’s the subject!

Why are you so upset? Because someone doesn’t agree with you. As I have stated before, like MOST catholics I was indoctrinated into the faith by my parents at 3 months old… I was baptized to be what THEY wanted me to be just like them. That is not how someone should become a member of a faith whatever the faith but thats how the church does it. So I am not a catholic because you say so? Thats kind of arrogant. The church today is devided into non practicing, liberal and conservative catholics. There are a small minority of conservative catholics like yourself. The rest of us have no problem criticizing the church when its called for. I don’t have a fear instilled in me like you do. I am sure you have made negative comments about people…maybe the president or city councilers or neighbors. But when someone criticizes the church people get upset. Thats a lack of maturity.

If the bible is suppose to be inspirational it also has to be accurate and make common sense. A lot of inaccuracies and tall stories in the bible. You think I am the only catholic who bashes the church? You better get out in the world and see whats going on.

You talk like the church is squeeky clean?

Villanova University published January 5, 2007.   Survey by researchers found that 85%  again 85% of roman catholic dioceses that responded to a survey  had discovered embelzzlement of church money in the last 5 years with 11% reporting that more than $500,000 had been stolen.   

 Please google catholic priest steals.......or catholic priest embezzles......read the hundreds of posts regarding these felony crimes. Stealing the hard earned money from the poor parishioners that put this hard earned money on the collection plate.   Another reason people bash the church.

 ..........and your worried about whether I am a catholic or not.  You better get busy and start questioning your own church of the less holier then thou that run the parishes.......and keep a tight grip on your money.    UNBELIEVABLE!

 

[impalass]

Impalass,
Why are you so angry?

Deacon Ed Who’s angry?

When someone points out a problem with the church your defense is why are you so angry. I have heard it all before.

I state facts.......  The world is changing.  Example.   I live in Canada.  Statistics Canada state in  1908, 98% of the people in canada were christian and most went to church.  Over 70% were catholic and over 25% were protestant.  August 5, 2008 a polling company in canada Angus Reid (check it out please) did a poll of canadians and found that today only 1 in 4 believe god created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years.  80% believe in the theory of evolution while only 20% believe in the theory of creationism.  WOW!    This poll was done the year before with the same results.

USA Today newspaper March 14, 2007. and the Herald Sun October 6, 2007. reported…

An accurate poll was taken by both papers and found that in american. Over 60% of americans CAN’T name 5 of the 10 commandments but 60% could name 10 characters on the Simpsons TV show. Most catholics CAN’T name 3 of the 7 deadly sins but MOST catholics can name the 7 ingredients in a BIG MAC hamburger.

Its obvious with these results there are a lot of so called christians who really shouldn’t be christian or really don’t know their faith that they profess but pretend to themselves that they do. Another reason why people bash catholics. They don’t even know the foundation of their own faith. This might all sound silly to you but its obvious there is a big disconnect with people of faith.

Lighten up Deacon Ed no one is angry… Just given the facts. Some people don’t like to hear the truth. I DO!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

So I see you want the Church to be perfect. I realized long ago, that if it were made up only of people who have no sins, there would be no Church. This applies to all of us. Pray for the Church daily and those that make up the hierarchy, i.e., bishops, priests and deacons. We need prayer more than you know. Pray for the laity that they will learn and follow the truth. I have also learned that one of the biggest proofs that we are the one true Church is the fact that we have survived despite ourselves. As for lightening up, I am not the one who keeps bringing up things which besmirched our Church. Yes, it is made up of sinners. As far as condemning, just remember the words in the Our Father wherein we pray for forgiveness as we forgive those who trespass against us. This is easy to say and hard to do. Try finding some of the good. You will find that there is much more of that.

 

[impalass]

So I see you want the Church to be perfect. I realized long ago, that if it were made up only of people who have no sins, there would be no Church. This applies to all of us. Pray for the Church daily and those that make up the hierarchy, i.e., bishops, priests and deacons. We need prayer more than you know. Pray for the laity that they will learn and follow the truth. I have also learned that one of the biggest proofs that we are the one true Church is the fact that we have survived despite ourselves. As for lightening up, I am not the one who keeps bringing up things which besmirched our Church. Yes, it is made up of sinners. As far as condemning, just remember the words in the Our Father wherein we pray for forgiveness as we forgive those who trespass against us. This is easy to say and hard to do. Try finding some of the good. You will find that there is much more of that.

Deacon Ed:  You say you are not one who keeps bringing up things to besmirch the church.   I didn't say you were, but lets not forget your on a forum thats title is:    WHY IS CATHOLIC BASHING SO POPULAR?   I am giving my reasons and you are responding.

There is a lot of good in all beliefs and a lot of good for those that don't believe.   You wonder why people bash the church.  When the pope makes statements that protestant churches are not real churches just communities you have to understand that your talking about 10s of millions of good people who just look at the world a different way but have the same belief you do.  

Personally I don't pray.   I believe praying is a selfish act of wanting something. Its a desire.   Catholics pray to get a promotion, they pray for a girlfriend or boyfriend or to win the lottery, they pray for better health, they pray for weath, they pray to pass the next test, pray for the sick they pray for the dead, they pray for everything. 

I believe god would be more proud of someone who figures things out themselves rather then sending in billions of wants and desires everyday.  When someone comes to a fork in the road and the can't figure it out they pray.  Why not back up and take the right fork.  I believe a god would want us to use our own ability and knowledge to figure out what is wrong and make it right. If it doesn't work it wasn't meant to be.   If prayers work then why does god descriminate.   I have never known a person missing a limb or eye or any other physical disability that has had it grown back or their disability repaired because they pray.   Have you?

 Remember we were taught god has a devine plan.  Things are already mapped out we were taught this.    Praying is trying to change gods plan.  Is that right, or is gods plan for us to figure things out ourselves.  

 Do you believe when muslims, jews, hindus, etc pray that their prayers are answered or just christians?  

  I am a critic, always have been always will be.  Questioning is how we learn.  I tought my children to question.   Accepting everything is giving up on life and often done so out of fear of criticism.  The bible teaches you to stop learning.  

  Deacon Ed....... please explain to me what is written here is incorrect and give your personal explanation not a church given explanation.

 

[impalass]

So I see you want the Church to be perfect. I realized long ago, that if it were made up only of people who have no sins, there would be no Church. This applies to all of us. Pray for the Church daily and those that make up the hierarchy, i.e., bishops, priests and deacons. We need prayer more than you know. Pray for the laity that they will learn and follow the truth. I have also learned that one of the biggest proofs that we are the one true Church is the fact that we have survived despite ourselves. As for lightening up, I am not the one who keeps bringing up things which besmirched our Church. Yes, it is made up of sinners. As far as condemning, just remember the words in the Our Father wherein we pray for forgiveness as we forgive those who trespass against us. This is easy to say and hard to do. Try finding some of the good. You will find that there is much more of that.

continued…didn’t say I want the church to be perfect because it isn’t. Church and its authorities have made many mistakes and being a critic I am not afraid to point them out whereas devout catholics put their heads in the sand afraid to question mistakes of the church when they might occur. People on here criticize me…thats fair but be honest. We all question our politicians, why not the church? We have all made fun of our politicians or fat people etc. we have all done it. . Back in the 1950s I couldn’t tell you how many times the priests/nuns and parents would say if you do something wrong god will punish you. “I am going to put the fear of god into you they would say” Well over the past 50 years god has evolved into a loving god now. People say jesus loves you and wants you to do good. What happened to the punishing god? The church made god evolve from a punishing god to a loving god. That might sound silly to you but its TRUE. I remember I was there and so were millions of others.

Again…remember this forum is about why people bash the church not about church picnics. You can have humour in religion you know its not as rigid as you might want it to be. A healthy attitude is expressing your thoughts whether positive or negative. Thats the only true way to learn. TO QUESTION…and sometimes criticism gets caught up in QUESTIONING! SMILE!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

 **Personally I don't pray.**   I believe praying is a selfish act of wanting something.

WOW - this does explain a lot.

Remember we were taught god has a devine plan. **Things are already mapped out we were taught this. ** Praying is trying to change gods plan. Is that right, or is gods plan for us to figure things out ourselves.

You seem to forget free will here. Further this gives a Calvinistic predestination outlook, that we are already consigned to heaven or hell. Such is not the case and this is not what the Church teaches. You either did not understand or the person who taught this to you did not know what they were talking about. God does not force his will on us. He desires only good for us. Try praying that God’s will be done in your life. That is what he wants, but does not force it on us.

Do you believe when muslims, jews, hindus, etc pray that their prayers are answered or just christians?

Yes, prayers are answered. But know that if what is prayed for is not in accord with God’s will, it will not be.

 I am a critic, always have been always will be.  Questioning is how we learn.  I tought my children to question.   Accepting everything is giving up on life and often done so out of fear of criticism.  **The bible teaches you to stop learning.**

I really pity you and pray for you if you believe this. You do need help. What I am seeing is nothing but a false intellectual pride. This is a humanistic approach which reflects as many new-agers think, that they have to contact the inner god (small g) within themselves. This is not the path to freedom.

Deacon Ed....... please explain to me what is written here is incorrect and** give your personal explanation not a church given explanation**.

This is nothing but the typical atheistic rersponse to anyone who answers with faith and has a definite belief system. If you really look at it, you want an answer and then tell me not to give an answer that I have arrived at by having a properly informed conscience.

I.didn’t say I want the church to be perfect because it isn’t. Church and its authorities have made many mistakes and being a critic I am not afraid to point them out whereas devout catholics put their heads in the sand afraid to question mistakes of the church when they might occur.

It sounds her that you are setting yourself up as the lone voice crying out in the wilderness. Only you have the correct view and no one else. Believe me my friend, such is not the case.

Back in the 1950s I couldn’t tell you how many times the priests/nuns and parents would say if you do something wrong god will punish you. “I am going to put the fear of god into you they would say” Well over the past 50 years god has evolved into a loving god now. People say jesus loves you and wants you to do good. What happened to the punishing god? The church made god evolve from a punishing god to a loving god. That might sound silly to you but its TRUE. I remember I was there and so were millions of others.

You must have been a very sensitive child to carry these feelings through all these years. Yes, God will punish unrepented sin if we die in that state. But God desires mercy, not justice. Stated another way, Mercy is for the living, justice is for the dead.

 

[impalass]

Again you response is not relevant to mine! What thread are you reading? For one catholics don’t take all of the bible literally but believe it is insperational! Second what information we do have shows the writers where of the catholic college which makes them bishops and last you should change on your profile that you are catholic because apparantly you are not! Anyways so what do you have to say that relavent to catholic bashing seeing that’s the subject!

You say catholics don’t take all of the bible literally but believe it is insperational. Says who? I know of a conservative catholics who do take the bible literally. You are speaking for ALL catholics. The bible is the foundation of the church. It has to be accurate and make sense. There are a lot of inaccuracies and a lot of false stories in the bible.

few examples: Genesis 1:16.17 God made 2 great lights one to govern the day and the smaller one to govern the night. We all know that the moon does not give off light. Right?

ISA 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth.

MAT 4:8 Again the devil taketh him up into an exeeding high mountain and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world.

First the world is not a circle it is a sphere. Astronomical bodies are spherical and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from anyplace. Right?

2KI 2:11 and elijah WENT up by a whirlwind into heaven"

John 3:13 No man hath ascended up to HEAVEN but he hat came down from heave the son of man. CONFUSING RIGHT?

These are just a few of hundreds of mistakes in the bible. If the bible is not to be taken literally and is only inspirational then who decided in the church that the 4 gospels are ACCURATE. Maybe they shouldn’t be taken literally. You can’t pick and choose you have to be consise and accurate. Know wonder non believers bash the church.

Confusing??

Before vatican II the catholic church consistantly taught only ROMAN CATHOLICS  had a chance to be saved and attain heaven.  Followers of other christian and non christian beliefs would be routed to HELL for all eternity.  I remember.

November 30 2005 Pope Benedict XVI said. "whoever seeks peace and mind of good of the community with a pure conscience and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent willl be saved even if he lacks BIBLICAL FAITH and NON BELIEVERS to can be saved.

 So what do you believe?

For centuries ALL previous popes, cardinals, bishops, priests, nuns and my parents and all the laity believed there was a special place called limbo for all unbaptized babies. Pope Benedict now says there never was a limbo. So millions of church authorities and laity went to their graves believing in limbo.

Joan of Arc was burned at the stake because she talked against the church.  (that wasn't nice now was it)  centuries later the church made her a saint.   

Galileo was punished by the church because he stated as we all know the sun rotates around the earth.  Back then the pope says no it doesn't.  Centuries later church apologizes quietly.

 These are just a very few reasons that catholics and non catholics bash the church.   The church is very confusing in its own beliefs and teachings and punishes those that disagree.  UNBELIEVABLE.    No I am not angry........just shaking my head in disbelief of all the doings of the mighty church.

 

[impalass]

WOW - this does explain a lot.

You seem to forget free will here. Further this gives a Calvinistic predestination outlook, that we are already consigned to heaven or hell. Such is not the case and this is not what the Church teaches. You either did not understand or the person who taught this to you did not know what they were talking about. God does not force his will on us. He desires only good for us. Try praying that God’s will be done in your life. That is what he wants, but does not force it on us.

Yes, prayers are answered. But know that if what is prayed for is not in accord with God’s will, it will not be.

I really pity you and pray for you if you believe this. You do need help. What I am seeing is nothing but a false intellectual pride. This is a humanistic approach which reflects as many new-agers think, that they have to contact the inner god (small g) within themselves. This is not the path to freedom.

This is nothing but the typical atheistic rersponse to anyone who answers with faith and has a definite belief system. If you really look at it, you want an answer and then tell me not to give an answer that I have arrived at by having a properly informed conscience.

It sounds her that you are setting yourself up as the lone voice crying out in the wilderness. Only you have the correct view and no one else. Believe me my friend, such is not the case.

You must have been a very sensitive child to carry these feelings through all these years. Yes, God will punish unrepented sin if we die in that state. But God desires mercy, not justice. Stated another way, Mercy is for the living, justice is for the dead.

 This forum is about expressing ones views.   Why is catholic bashing sooooo popular?   I express my views regarding that.  If you don't like my views please don't respond.   I have stated negative things regarding the catholic church. Negative things that are true.  If you can't accept that maybe you should post on another catholic site where everything is joyful.   Its obvious you don't like to hear that.   I will continue to express my views.

Lone voice in the wilderness. Please check out church statistics for the last 50 years. Currently less then 35% of catholics go to mass once a month. Most only attend weddings and funeral services. Its required every sunday. Most catholics don’t follow the churches teachings of birth control,. I am pro life (nothing to do with the church) yet almost as many catholics are pro choice as the general population. Most catholics indicate celibacy should be optional and over half of all catholic priests also believe this. All these statements are condemned by the pope and the church yet most catholics don;t adhere. So please don’t call me a lonely wolf.

If you really believe praying works for catholics and diseases are put into remission because of praying then it should show that generally speaking catholics should live much longer then those that aren’t. Cured of terminal diseases etc. Right? Please show me sources of information that catholics generally speaking live longer lives then non catholics or atheists…

Please show me someone who has lost a limb and has prayed and has had it grow back?   Please respond.

Its obvious you don't like atheists.  Thats just plain arrogant and ignorant of others who have a different view then you.   I like all people not just ones who agree  with my view.    No I am not angry...........just telling it like it is.   Its about catholic bashing as the forum states........

 

[jake23]

Why are you so upset? Because someone doesn’t agree with you. As I have stated before, like MOST catholics I was indoctrinated into the faith by my parents at 3 months old… I was baptized to be what THEY wanted me to be just like them. That is not how someone should become a member of a faith whatever the faith but thats how the church does it. So I am not a catholic because you say so? Thats kind of arrogant. The church today is devided into non practicing, liberal and conservative catholics. There are a small minority of conservative catholics like yourself. The rest of us have no problem criticizing the church when its called for. I don’t have a fear instilled in me like you do. I am sure you have made negative comments about people…maybe the president or city councilers or neighbors. But when someone criticizes the church people get upset. Thats a lack of maturity.

If the bible is suppose to be inspirational it also has to be accurate and make common sense. A lot of inaccuracies and tall stories in the bible. You think I am the only catholic who bashes the church? You better get out in the world and see whats going on.

You talk like the church is squeeky clean?

Villanova University published January 5, 2007.   Survey by researchers found that 85%  again 85% of roman catholic dioceses that responded to a survey  had discovered embelzzlement of church money in the last 5 years with 11% reporting that more than $500,000 had been stolen.   

 Please google catholic priest steals.......or catholic priest embezzles......read the hundreds of posts regarding these felony crimes. Stealing the hard earned money from the poor parishioners that put this hard earned money on the collection plate.   Another reason people bash the church.

 ..........and your worried about whether I am a catholic or not.  You better get busy and start questioning your own church of the less holier then thou that run the parishes.......and keep a tight grip on your money.    UNBELIEVABLE!

Where do you get the idea that I am upset? I was just curiouse to why your responses where sor erelevant to the subject. You should research again because there are more conservative catholics than not overall. America is full of liberal catholics but that is only a quarter of the church. I never implied that people of the church are squeeky clean, there are some bad poeple prostatuting the faith but that is not relevant to baptismal heritage! I agree that one should not practice a faith just because it the one there family practices but having true faith in the catholic church I hope that my children will accept it but I hope they do it by there own influence and if they study whole heartedly and pray I believe that they will accept the church as I have. Allot of poeple say they are allot of things but they are not if they do not live as what they say they are including catholics! Again I am not angry I am insperational, theres a difference. God Bless!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

 **Personally I don't pray. **  I believe praying is a selfish act of wanting something. Its a desire.   Catholics pray to get a promotion, they pray for a girlfriend or boyfriend or to win the lottery, they pray for better health, they pray for weath, they pray to pass the next test,** pray for the sick they pray for the dead, they pray for everything. **

Yes, we pray for many things. We pray to thank God for his many blessings in our lives. For his mercy, his forgiveness, his graces and blessings in our lives. I would certainly hope you do this. Just one more tidbit, To be truly Catholic, one must believe and practice all that the Church believes and teaches. Otherwise, you are not truly Catholic, no matter what you call yourself. You can accept that, hopefully, or you can reject it. But please do not claim to be a cafeteria Catholic in picking and choosing what it is you want to believe. That sets you up as the sole arbiter of truth, which you are not. . Last I heard, Jesus did not promise that the Holy Spirit would keep you from error. He did make that promise to the Church. That pertains to its dogmas. Individuals, even popes can make mistakes. Infallibility applies to what it teaches, not to the individual lives of the popes.

 

[impalass]

Yes, we pray for many things. We pray to thank God for his many blessings in our lives. For his mercy, his forgiveness, his graces and blessings in our lives. I would certainly hope you do this. Just one more tidbit, To be truly Catholic, one must believe and practice all that the Church believes and teaches. Otherwise, you are not truly Catholic, no matter what you call yourself. You can accept that, hopefully, or you can reject it. But please do not claim to be a cafeteria Catholic in picking and choosing what it is you want to believe. That sets you up as the sole arbiter of truth, which you are not. . Last I heard, Jesus did not promise that the Holy Spirit would keep you from error. He did make that promise to the Church. That pertains to its dogmas. Individuals, even popes can make mistakes. Infallibility applies to what it teaches, not to the individual lives of the popes.

Ed: You say “You must believe and practice all that the church believes and teaches, otherwise you are not truly catholic no matter what you call yourself”…Interesting

My response: For centuries the CHURCH taught that there was a special place for unbaptized babies called Limbo. I was taught this and so were the millions of catholics who have gone to their grave including all previous popes, cardinals, bishops and priests and laity. I was NEVER taught that this was just a theory. Last year Pope Benedict indicated there is no and was no Limbo.

I have been to dozens of catholic funerals over the years and you being a deacon have been to many more. Catholics often make statements at funerals that go against the churches teachings. You often hear people say I know he is in heaven with my mom. or she is now in heaven with my dad. Or he/she is resting peacefully in heaven. These statements might be comforting words but if these people are true believers in the church such statements should not be made. The catholic church does not teach that when you die you go to heaven/hell. The church teaches you go to purgatory. A place of fire, until the end of time then judgment day. The church does not teach you will be with your loved ones it teaches you will be with god or not with god.

For centuries the catholic church taught and believed in a man named St Christopher. Churches, schools are named after him. Medals are sold. Catholics believe he has special power. A few years ago the catholic church quietly removed christopher from the patron saints list because they can’t verify that he even existed. They think he might have lived in the third century but have no evidence yet the church keeps grinding out St Christopher medals and people keep buyin’ them up!

One of my previous posts I wrote: Before vatican II the catholic chruch consistantly taught only roman catholics had a chance to be saved and attain heaven. Followers of other christian faiths and non believers would be routed to helll for all eternity.

November 30/2005 Pope Benedict stated who ever seeks peace and mind godod of the community with a pure conscience and keeps alive the desire for the trancendent will be saved even if he lacks BIBLICAL FAITH …

These statements above are just a tidbit of inconsistancies within the catholic church from its highest authorities. You say you have to follow all the churches teachings or you are not a true catholic. What teachings above are correct? HIPOCRACY…and you wonder why people bash the church.

 

[sauce]

Impalass and Deacon Ed,

Life is full of paradox and the bible is full of paradox.
Wisdom is a gift from God that is required to sort out the things life teaches us. Discernment, then wisdom.

My background is theatre. We always had to go way beneath the surface of things in order to interpret literature.

I think the church does a great job. But it’s not the end of the line.
Rhema comes to those who prayerfully read the bible.

There is dimension after dimension to seek out. All of this arguing is OK if that’s all you want out of it. There is so much more, though.
The really great acting teachers know what kind of questions to ask. Everything takes so much discipline.

I’ve been in church when a pastor attacking the doctrine
of purgatory had absolutely no discipline in his argument.
He sounded illiterate and consumed with trying to unhinge anything he could come up with that would seem to disprove purgatory. Where is that in the bible, bla, bla, bla?

I was embarrassed for him. But I could tell that he didn’t want to know the Catholic position.

There is no winning here. It’s quite two dimensional. A culture war you might say. We all need to move on. After all, life awaits us. Jesus awaits us. Mary awaits us.

Just a peaceful thought.:twocents:

 

[impalass]

Impalass and Deacon Ed,

Life is full of paradox and the bible is full of paradox.
Wisdom is a gift from God that is required to sort out the things life teaches us. Discernment, then wisdom.

My background is theatre. We always had to go way beneath the surface of things in order to interpret literature.

I think the church does a great job. But it’s not the end of the line.
Rhema comes to those who prayerfully read the bible.

There is dimension after dimension to seek out. All of this arguing is OK if that’s all you want out of it. There is so much more, though.
The really great acting teachers know what kind of questions to ask. Everything takes so much discipline.

I’ve been in church when a pastor attacking the doctrine
of purgatory had absolutely no discipline in his argument.
He sounded illiterate and consumed with trying to unhinge anything he could come up with that would seem to disprove purgatory. Where is that in the bible, bla, bla, bla?

I was embarrassed for him. But I could tell that he didn’t want to know the Catholic position.

There is no winning here. It’s quite two dimensional. A culture war you might say. We all need to move on. After all, life awaits us. Jesus awaits us. Mary awaits us.

Just a peaceful thought.:twocents:

If we wern't so narrow minded, the world would be a better place.  Religious wars, cultural wars, it always has and always will be until we learn to accept all people regardless of creed or color.   Saying your catholic and saying your right is to me a religious racists statement.  Most people are the faith they are  because of indoctrination.  Parents taught their children of their particular faith what they are going to be and believe to become like them because of their own ignorance of all other beliefs in this world..  Enough of that silliness.   

Parents should teach their children the laws of the land and all rights from wrongs.  When the children grow up to be adults the children using their own ability and knowledge determine whether they want to follow one belief systems or none at all.   Brainwashing our children into a particular faith because we want our children to be just like us is wrong.   The church institutuded child baptisms so the church through family tradition would carry on.   Just because you are born into the catholic faith doesn't make anyone a good catholic.  You have to learn about all faiths to come to an objective conclusion, not one that only makes our parents happy.

Catholics believe in purgatory because that is all they were taught.  Jewish people teach their children that the messiah hasn't come yet,  muslims teach their children about the quaran. One thing about atheists is that they are consistant in what their life is all about.  If you lined up a 100 catholics and asked them where heaven/hell is you would get 100 different answers.   Its a viscious circle and for the past 20 years I have had an open mind about  religion and thats healthy. I am not closed minded like most conservative religious people.   I was raised a catholic but I don't for one minute believe its the silver bullit.  Maybe you believe that but I believe all people are equal.   Just because you might have been told by your parents that jesus is the only way,  billions of others have a different take.   I do know that the catholic church has instilled fear and guilt into believers.  You see it on this forum.  Posters will say if you don't believe in jesus or the catholic church you will go to hell.  Rubbish.  Thats the old fear and guilt syndrom.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

My response: For centuries the CHURCH taught that there was a special place for unbaptized babies called Limbo. I was taught this and so were the millions of catholics who have gone to their grave including all previous popes, cardinals, bishops and priests and laity. I was NEVER taught that this was just a theory. Last year Pope Benedict indicated there is no and was no Limbo.

This is where you are wrong. The Church never taught *de fide *the existence of limbo. It was something that was put forward to try and understand what happens to unbaptized Children. Obviously they, through no fault of their own not being baptized, do not deserve eternal damnation. What was put forth was a theory that one could believe or reject, that a place, called Limbo existed for these souls where they would enjoy perfect natural happiness, instead of supernatural happiness. It was not and has never been dogma. Simply a possibility, because there was nothing which answered this question and because the damnation of these innocent souls would be contrary to God’s infinite Mercy and justice. There still is no official position on this.

I have been to dozens of catholic funerals over the years and you being a deacon have been to many more. Catholics often make statements at funerals that go against the churches teachings. You often hear people say I know he is in heaven with my mom. or she is now in heaven with my dad. Or he/she is resting peacefully in heaven. These statements might be comforting words but if these people are true believers in the church such statements should not be made. The catholic church does not teach that when you die you go to heaven/hell. The church teaches you go to purgatory. A place of fire, until the end of time then judgment day. The church does not teach you will be with your loved ones it teaches you will be with god or not with god.

**Wrong again. **The Church does not and never taught that you go to purgatory until the time of judgment day. If this were true, there would be no saints, as a saint is anyone who has died and has gone to heaven, whether canonized or not. Go back to your childhood. Remember All Saints and All Souls day. November 1 & 2 All saints day celebrates those souls who are in heaven and have not been canonized. All Souls celebrates those souls in purgatory who are serving temporal punishment (for purgation i.e., to be made perfect) . These souls know they have salvation and will end up in heaven. Lets call them saints in waiting. As they will be saints. You either misunderstood what was taught, or you had an awful poor teacher.

One of my previous posts I wrote: Before vatican II the catholic chruch consistantly taught only roman catholics had a chance to be saved and attain heaven. Followers of other christian faiths and non believers would be routed to helll for all eternity.

**Wrong again. ** I have had 10 years of Catholic schooling through high school, and Seven years Catholic College plus 4 years diaconate formation and then additional theological studies at a local school of theology when told by my bishop, “You have been enrolled in…” I was never taught this. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church under the section of the 4 marks of the Catholic Church, i.e., One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. It is paragraph numbers 830-856. You will get the correct teaching on this. Additionally, read St. Paul’s epistle to the Romans, Chapter 2:12-16. This segment is called "Judgment by the Interior Law"This also addresses this situation as to those who are not Catholic or Jewish, and their salvation. This is only 2000 years old, and believe it or not has always been the Church teaching.

November 30/2005 Pope Benedict stated who ever seeks peace and mind godod of the community with a pure conscience and keeps alive the desire for the trancendent will be saved even if he lacks BIBLICAL FAITH …

This is an explanation of the biblical passages I cited above.

These statements above are just a tidbit of inconsistancies within the catholic church from its highest authorities. You say you have to follow all the churches teachings or you are not a true catholic. What teachings above are correct? HIPOCRACY…and you wonder why people bash the church.

I believe the answers given above will also answer this last paragraph.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[sauce]

I can tell by the grammar and spelling that emotion is the true driver of opinion here.

If you took the time to write properly, maybe others would take you seriously. But as it is, you continue to show a lack of true scholarship and care in what you write.

 

[sauce]

Due to a pop-up blocker, I missed your message, Ed. Try again, please.

 

[impalass]

This is where you are wrong. The Church never taught *de fide *the existence of limbo. It was something that was put forward to try and understand what happens to unbaptized Children. Obviously they, through no fault of their own not being baptized, do not deserve eternal damnation. What was put forth was a theory that one could believe or reject, that a place, called Limbo existed for these souls where they would enjoy perfect natural happiness, instead of supernatural happiness. It was not and has never been dogma. Simply a possibility, because there was nothing which answered this question and because the damnation of these innocent souls would be contrary to God’s infinite Mercy and justice. There still is no official position on this.

**Wrong again. **The Church does not and never taught that you go to purgatory until the time of judgment day. If this were true, there would be no saints, as a saint is anyone who has died and has gone to heaven, whether canonized or not. Go back to your childhood. Remember All Saints and All Souls day. November 1 & 2 All saints day celebrates those souls who are in heaven and have not been canonized. All Souls celebrates those souls in purgatory who are serving temporal punishment (for purgation i.e., to be made perfect) . These souls know they have salvation and will end up in heaven. Lets call them saints in waiting. As they will be saints. You either misunderstood what was taught, or you had an awful poor teacher.

**Wrong again. ** I have had 10 years of Catholic schooling through high school, and Seven years Catholic College plus 4 years diaconate formation and then additional theological studies at a local school of theology when told by my bishop, “You have been enrolled in…” I was never taught this. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church under the section of the 4 marks of the Catholic Church, i.e., One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. It is paragraph numbers 830-856. You will get the correct teaching on this. Additionally, read St. Paul’s epistle to the Romans, Chapter 2:12-16. This segment is called "Judgment by the Interior Law"This also addresses this situation as to those who are not Catholic or Jewish, and their salvation. This is only 2000 years old, and believe it or not has always been the Church teaching.

This is an explanation of the biblical passages I cited above.

I believe the answers given above will also answer this last paragraph.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

  I was taught by several nuns and priests that there was a limbo.  NEVER told it was a theory.  Probably told this to put more fear into us.  

You talk about your catholic education.  I am sure there are millions who have educational crudentials much better then yours that have a different belief or no belief at all and can sight why their way is the right way.   Saying that your educated in catholic doctrine doesn't mean catholicism is correct.  It just means thats your belief.   The catechism is the catholic play book.  Its not the book of God.

 You often throw around the terms heaven/hell.   You should have a good understanding of what you speak.   Where is heaven?  Where is hell?   Where in your body is your soul?  How does your soul leave your body?

 Christianity in most western culture democracies is fast disappearing in believers.  Yes there are millions of baptized cathlics/protestants but few attend mass anymore.  Countries such as England, Germany, France, Holland, Spain even Italy and Canada are  moving towards secularism.  During the past  simpletons in the church did what they were told and feared reprisals from the church if they disagreed in doctrine.  The church grew in numbers mostly by family tradition, handed down generation to generation.  The church is evolving.  Thank goodness those days are behind us. 

I can't explain all the answers to why there is catholic bashing but it has nothing to do with jealousy as someone wrote.  If that is what is was they would become catholic.

For those that have become a catholic through their own learned experiences I applaud you. For the millions (including myself) who were indoctrinated into the faith because our parents wanted us to be just like them…thats not really a faith. You have to learn about all faiths or no belief at all to really get an understanding of what you find suitable for your own needs and comforts…not needs and comforts that our parents wanted us to have to be like them. Their job is to teach us the laws of the land.

 

[impalass]

Impalass and Deacon Ed,

Life is full of paradox and the bible is full of paradox.
Wisdom is a gift from God that is required to sort out the things life teaches us. Discernment, then wisdom.

My background is theatre. We always had to go way beneath the surface of things in order to interpret literature.

I think the church does a great job. But it’s not the end of the line.
Rhema comes to those who prayerfully read the bible.

There is dimension after dimension to seek out. All of this arguing is OK if that’s all you want out of it. There is so much more, though.
The really great acting teachers know what kind of questions to ask. Everything takes so much discipline.

I’ve been in church when a pastor attacking the doctrine
of purgatory had absolutely no discipline in his argument.
He sounded illiterate and consumed with trying to unhinge anything he could come up with that would seem to disprove purgatory. Where is that in the bible, bla, bla, bla?

I was embarrassed for him. But I could tell that he didn’t want to know the Catholic position.

There is no winning here. It’s quite two dimensional. A culture war you might say. We all need to move on. After all, life awaits us. Jesus awaits us. Mary awaits us.

Just a peaceful thought.:twocents:

 Sauce:   Life and the bible is full of paradox or paradoxes you say.    There should be no conflicting information in the bible but we all know there is.  Its suppose to be the inspired words of  God.  Catholics pick and choose from the bible what they believe and what they discount.  Not a real ringing endorsement for the catholic church now is it, and people wonder why there is bashing when consistancy should be the objective.

eg;

Genesis: Day 1 God created day and night and seperated day and night with light and darkness. Day 4, 3 days later God creates the Sun which we all know light comes from. Does that make sense. Its a paradox!

God created day and night. God wouldn’t have to create day and night, we all know the earth cycles every 24 hours with its rotation on its axis. day/night (LOL) its in the bible…just one more of hundreds of bible paradoxes.