Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?

[Tomyris]

Well actually this is closer to where I had hoped this thread would go. Not the “people ignored me in church”, “it had better music”, and “there was no fresh coffee”.

Now, why do you feel these are not valid reasons?

Well, I hate it when people bother me in church. Even worse, when someone wants a hug, or worse yet a peck on the cheek. And I like lousy music. And bad coffee. I am a programmer.

These are absolutely horrible reasons for becoming Catholic. Terrible, terrible reasons! Take a look at “size” as a reason:

1. Jesus said things about enter by the narrow way, which few find, many are called but few are chosen, etc. It does not seem to me that He is all that impressed by the size of an organization. He seems to warn against the size. If anything, we are directed to lean against the size of an organization by the One we claim to follow.
2. At one time there were many, many pagans and very, very few Christians. By this argument the Christians should have become pagans.
3. Truth is truth, not a matter of how many people are voting for a particular position or are members of a particular organization.

If you join the Catholic Church because it is BIG, what if you suddenly discover there are more Pentecostals, for example. Are you going to switch?

Size is a lousy reason. The others are also all lousy reasons. There are actually better reasons to join the Catholic Church than I gave, but IMHO those can be demonstrated to be insufficient as well. But all this is Off Topic.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Well, I hate it when people bother me in church. Even worse, when someone wants a hug, or worse yet a peck on the cheek. And I like lousy music. And bad coffee. I am a programmer.

These are absolutely horrible reasons for becoming Catholic. Terrible, terrible reasons! Take a look at “size” as a reason:

1. Jesus said things about enter by the narrow way, which few find, many are called but few are chosen, etc. It does not seem to me that He is all that impressed by the size of an organization. He seems to warn against the size. If anything, we are directed to lean against the size of an organization by the One we claim to follow.
2. At one time there were many, many pagans and very, very few Christians. By this argument the Christians should have become pagans.

**3. Truth is truth, not a matter of how many people are voting for a particular position or are members of a particular organization. **

If you join the Catholic Church because it is BIG, what if you suddenly discover there are more Pentecostals, for example. Are you going to switch?

Size is a lousy reason. The others are also all lousy reasons. There are actually better reasons to join the Catholic Church than I gave, but IMHO those can be demonstrated to be insufficient as well. But all this is Off Topic.

What same-sex marriage means to Presbyterians
Amid shouts of joy and cries of lament, some Presbyterians stop to take stock of the newest amendment to the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) Constitution
March 20, 2015

As reports began to leak Tuesday evening that gender would no longer be a barrier to marriage in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), social media began to light up. Soon Facebook and Twitter were filled with press releases, blogs, and secular news articles. Cell phones beamed with a New York Times alert, saying, “Largest Presbyterian denomination gives final approval for same-sex marriage.” Then came the phone calls, pastors’ letters to their congregations, and the hum of Presbyterians—anxiously, joyously, painfully—whispering, sometimes shouting, that a monumental day had arrived for the church.

The church, they all said, would never be the same. On that at least all could agree.

Earlier that day, the Presbytery of the Palisades had cast its vote in favor of an amendment to the PC(USA) Constitution that would change the description of marriage from being between “a man and a woman” to being between “two people.” In doing so, it had become the 86th presbytery to cast an affirmative vote, providing the majority needed among 171 presbyteries to approve the change. (Read more about the passage of the marriage amendment here.)

pcusa.org/news/2015/3/20/what-same-sex-marriage-means-presbyterians/

Hitting on your Point 3 - is it true that marriage is between a man and a woman as ordained by God? Or is that not true?

(My guess is this is not your Presbyterian denomination - correct? If not, are you in communion with this group - in the same Truth?)

Or am I just sweating the small stuff here?

 

[Peter_J]

Is this a serious inquiry?

Maybe.

No, actually I just find your approach – trying to be fair to both sides – very refreshing. (Unfortunately past experience indicates that you will probably be mostly ignored, since your posts don’t fit with the image that most Protestant posters have of Catholic thinking.)

 

[AbideWithMe]

… the image that most Protestant posters have of Catholic thinking.)

Eh, for me, no, just the image I have of many Catholics on this particular website, due to experience.

ETA: I should say “some Catholics”, since there are a good number of even-handed ones here, too. But I came here after friendly real-life experience with Catholics, and then experience on another, smaller, mostly-Catholic forum where everyone got along well, so running into triumphalist chest-thumping from Catholics here was a big surprise.

 

[JustaServant]

Well, I hate it when people bother me in church. Even worse, when someone wants a hug, or worse yet a peck on the cheek. And I like lousy music. And bad coffee. I am a programmer.

These are absolutely horrible reasons for becoming Catholic. Terrible, terrible reasons! Take a look at “size” as a reason:

1. Jesus said things about enter by the narrow way, which few find, many are called but few are chosen, etc. It does not seem to me that He is all that impressed by the size of an organization. He seems to warn against the size. If anything, we are directed to lean against the size of an organization by the One we claim to follow.
2. At one time there were many, many pagans and very, very few Christians. By this argument the Christians should have become pagans.
3. Truth is truth, not a matter of how many people are voting for a particular position or are members of a particular organization.

If you join the Catholic Church because it is BIG, what if you suddenly discover there are more Pentecostals, for example. Are you going to switch?

Size is a lousy reason. The others are also all lousy reasons. There are actually better reasons to join the Catholic Church than I gave, but IMHO those can be demonstrated to be insufficient as well. But all this is Off Topic.

It’s not really off topic.
In regard to size. What is it that you are seeing? The physical Church or the spiritual Church? If all I saw was the physical, I probably would not be part of any church regardless of size. Seeing only the physical is the problem atheists have. They see the scandals, the hypocrisy, past injustices, etc. To see beyond that, to the Church Triumphant is what we should keep our eyes on.

 

[Peter_J]

Eh, for me, no, just the image I have of many Catholics …

That’s cool. Here’s the rub, though: most Protestants I’ve dealt with seem to be hell-bent on thinking that this Catholic or that Catholic, or this website or that website, represent “the Catholic position”. (Granted, my experience is mostly with Lutherans like JonNC, not so much with Evangelicals.)
*Edit: I had better add that I’m not talking about some Protestant ideas that are completely off the wall, and hopefully not even an issue for Protestants who post here, like “Catholics worship Mary”.
*
A good icon for this phenomenon comes from the Catholic professor/author/speaker/TV personality Scott Hahn. Hahn described a conversation with an old Protestant friend, which I’ll repeat in part (this isn’t an exact quote of course as my memory isn’t perfect): after hearing Hahn say that Calvary was a sacrifice and the Lord’s Supper is a meal, the friend said “Wow that’s a relief, because for a while there I thought you had really become a Catholic.”

I am, of course, nowhere near as good as Hahn as dispelling that kind of thinking (although sometimes I dream of a big publishing company calling me up to ask if they can put my phrase “Catholicism isn’t a website” on a bumper sticker ) which is unfortunate because it sounds like the story of my life (well okay not literally ): to wit, that Protestant assume that stuff like “Calvary wasn’t a sacrifice” or whatever, is representative of Catholics, and just ignore posts from Catholic posters who don’t fit their preconceived notion of “Catholics”.

 

[TC3033]

Eh, for me, no, just the image I have of many Catholics on this particular website, due to experience.

ETA: I should say “some Catholics”, since there are a good number of even-handed ones here, too. But I came here after friendly real-life experience with Catholics, and then experience on another, smaller, mostly-Catholic forum where everyone got along well, so running into triumphalist chest-thumping from Catholics here was a big surprise.

Semi-ditto, my experience was IRL. I had absolutely zero opinion on Catholics or Catholicism until my family joined our first Parrish as a family. That is where I was turned off to, what I see as, exclusionary portion of Catholicism.

It was putting off, and quite confusing, to see my name in the Church directory, on our Church mailbox, Collection envelops, mailers, etc…with an asterisk to denote that I, in fact wasn’t Catholic. When talking with the Father when joining, when he found out I wasn’t Catholic he wanted zero to do with me. At festival time, all the teen and adult members of the Church were assigned duties for the weekend…except myself and the other one or two non-Catholics.

Now, that was my first real experience with Catholicism. Is it getting better…ya it is. We have a new Father now. Is he keen on me, not 100% sure yet but he seems to be much more open. Do I feel comfortable at Mass yet. Not really, but it’s getting better. Has asking questions to the Father helped, yes…it has (once we got passed the I don’t want to convert part). Has this website helped. Ya, a whole lot. Have I been a touch offended a couple of times…sure. But for every post like that, here have been 5 more like FC34’s that are civil in nature and have been part of a healthy discussion.

Coming from my non-denominational background this is all quite different. My first experience with Catholicism was one of exclusion where growing up all that I learned was inclusion. That has been something that I struggle with, and maybe I’m missing something.

If there’s anything I’ve noticed, we’re probably all (myself included) guilty of throwing too large of blanket over too many people.

Not 100% sure how much sense I made there, but I’ll stick with it.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Eh, for me, no, just the image I have of many Catholics on this particular website, due to experience.

ETA: I should say “some Catholics”, since there are a good number of even-handed ones here, too. But I came here after friendly real-life experience with Catholics, and then experience on another, smaller, mostly-Catholic forum where everyone got along well, so running into triumphalist chest-thumping from Catholics here was a big surprise.

I agree with every word of this and I am a Catholic. The last few days I have been in this “Non-Catholic” section of the forum and I have hit on some truimphalist chest-thumping Protestants though too. I am new here, but it seems like a lot of time on forums people come on just to pass the time with anonymous insults, attacks - not particularly well thought out or expressed. For every one Catholic or Protestant trying to have a serious productive exchange, you have 10 or even 20 people just picking fights for the heck of it. But I wouldn’t over romanticize the “real” Catholic or Protestants out there not online either - I think often they are just too busy to sign on - and don’t really care to get engaged. They are not all saints, Mother Teresas helping the poor in their spare time - again I mean this for both sides.

 

[Peter_J]

and I have hit on some truimphalist chest-thumping Protestants though too.

Just so.

I don’t want to offend our brethren, but I think that if I were to spend time on a Protestant forum (which I don’t) my primary purpose would be to remind myself that things here are not bad, comparatively speaking.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Just so.

I don’t want to offend our brethren, but I think that if I were to spend time on a Protestant forum (which I don’t) my primary purpose would be to remind myself that things here are not bad, comparatively speaking.

Just so. Good point. If I went on an Orthodox or Protestant forum I would certainly go on with the intention of being the picture of humility - defend my Catholic faith mind you - but respectfully seek to connect with my fellow Christians. What do we have in common? What divides us and why?

There is an undeniable issue though here that a lot of Catholics are far from “respectfully seeking to connect with their fellow Christians.” I agree with those who say they have never seen this “on the ground” with Catholics. I certainly never have - in person I mean. Sometimes I wonder if these CAF warriors really are Catholics in real life or impersonators, plants from the WBC. I’ll get in trouble for this one probably but I also wonder if Protestant (fundamentalist) converts to Catholicism is what that is about. Not all mind you. I just say that because it “feels” like fundamentalism, not Catholicism - a lot of the “Catholic” commentary here.

 

[Tomyris]

What same-sex marriage means to Presbyterians
Amid shouts of joy and cries of lament, some Presbyterians stop to take stock of the newest amendment to the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) Constitution
March 20, 2015

pcusa.org/news/2015/3/20/what-same-sex-marriage-means-presbyterians/

Hitting on your Point 3 - is it true that marriage is between a man and a woman as ordained by God? Or is that not true?

(My guess is this is not your Presbyterian denomination - correct? If not, are you in communion with this group - in the same Truth?)

Or am I just sweating the small stuff here?

1. Does not follow.
2. That is PCUSA. I am in the EPC. You cannot use what they do against me.
3. I don’t expect you to keep it all straight.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

1. Does not follow.
2. That is PCUSA. I am in the EPC. You cannot use what they do against me.
3. I don’t expect you to keep it all straight.

1.Thank God for Reformed/Prestbyterian standing for truth,
43. Lol

 

[Tomyris]

1.Thank God for Reformed/Prestbyterian standing for truth,
43. Lol

1. My Reformer can beat up your Reformer.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

1. My Reformer can beat up your Reformer.

Don’t even try it

 

[FollowChrist34]

This is going well…

 

[theropod]

1. My Reformer can beat up your Reformer.

But let’s get together and team up on Zwingli

 

[Denise1957]

1. Jesus said things about enter by the narrow way, which few find, many are called but few are chosen, etc. It does not seem to me that He is all that impressed by the size of an organization. He seems to warn against the size. If anything, we are directed to lean against the size of an organization by the One we claim to follow.

I fail to see how “many are called, but few are chosen” means that a Church should be small. Didn’t Our Lord command His Apostles to go out to all nations and baptize them, teaching all that He had taught to them? How is that supposed to mean a small Church?

 

[FollowChrist34]

I fail to see how “many are called, but few are chosen” means that a Church should be small. Didn’t Our Lord command His Apostles to go out to all nations and baptize them, teaching all that He had taught to them? How is that supposed to mean a small Church?

Actually I think their idea is to be large. Here is their mission statement. We are freed from “guilt” and the “power of sin.” (do we still sin? who knows - it is a little unclear) Note that we are to share the good news of God’s love through mission - I think that means growing the Church? So I guess we just rejoice in being saved and spreading the Word. And drink a lot of bad coffee with upbeat rock music in the background. And witness.

To be evangelical is to believe that Jesus is God the Son who became flesh and lived among us and died for us. Through Jesus Christ, the Kingdom of God has been inaugurated, thereby freeing people from the guilt and power of sin through personal faith and repentance. This good news of God’s love needs to be shared (ideally in relationships) with those who are alienated from God. This salvation is found in no one else. As Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Me” (John 14.6). We express this priority on evangelism by stating it in our governing documents as the first “duty” of the church. This priority is evidenced by our emphasis on church planting, church revitalization, and world missions.

 

[Denise1957]

Actually I think their idea is to be large. Here is their mission statement. We are freed from “guilt” and the “power of sin.” (do we still sin? who knows - it is a little unclear) Note that we are to share the good news of God’s love through mission - I think that means growing the Church? So I guess we just rejoice in being saved and spreading the Word. And drink a lot of bad coffee with upbeat rock music in the background. And witness.

I think I understand what you’re saying. The Evangelical idea about missions, spreading the word, revitalization - these things hardly lend to the idea of a small church or churches.

Or maybe they think it’s just the Catholic Church that needs to be small or smaller? I dunno.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

The simple way to answer the question is to say that Protestants already are part of the Catholic Church , so why should We be part of the Roman part , that and major doctrinal differences .