Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?

[PRmerger]

Debates here in CAF have really pushed me in this direction more than anything that has happened to me in some time. What am I supposed to believe about a religion which tries to justify slavery. St. Augustine wrote in his Enarrationes in Psalmos:

“if you see your slave living badly, what other punishment will you curb him with, if not the lash? Use it: do. God allows it. In fact he is angered if you don’t. But do it in a loving rather than a vindictive spirit.”

“Servumque ipsum tuum, si male viventem videris, non poena aliqua, non verberibus refrenabis? fiat hoc, fiat : admittit deus, imo reprehendit, si no fiat ; sed animo dilectionis fac : non animo ultionis.”

The Old Testament plainly allows slavery:

Leviticus 25:44-46

This kind of thing raises doubts in my mind about all religion, not just Christianity or Judaism.

Only when you use a fundamentalist reading of Scripture do you get the conclusions you’ve drawn.

I find it curious that fundamentalists and atheists always seem to have the same interpretations of particular Bible verses.

Rather, when one reads Scripture through the lens of the faith which gave us these Scriptures, can one come to a reading which isn’t tortured.

 

[Michael68]

There are too many contradictions in Christian and Jewish Scriptures for me to consider them all inerrant.

Nor do I believe that all Truth resides in any one religious tradition or its sacred books. If that were the case, it would seem terribly unjust to me. To give an example, as one book I have reminded me recently, the great Maya ruler K’inich Janaab’ Pakal ascended the throne of the city state of Palenque in the rain forests what is now Chiapas, Mexico in July 615 A.D. And of course, the Maya of this area were not Christians and practiced a polytheistic form of religion which had developed in that part of the world over thousands of years and they would not find out about Christianity until the Spaniards came there more than 877 years later. And the people in this part of the world had been cut off from the Old World for about 10,000 years or more. So why would God abandon these people there for hundreds and thousands of years with no knowledge of true religion and no knowledge of Christ if that is the only way to achieve salvation? Or maybe some of the Truth does reside in the religion which was practiced by the Maya which would mean that not all of the Truth resides in Christian Scripture. Maybe God is bigger and more complicated than what can fit in any one religious tradition and any one body of sacred texts.

Contradictions? Like what for example?

 

[Peter_J]

Debates here in CAF have really pushed me in this direction more than anything that has happened to me in some time.

A little while ago I caught part of a news-program that examined social media, including the darker sides of it (I think it was an hour on that subject, but I only caught a fraction of it). I have to wonder if they encountered the phenomenon you just mentioned (not that they would necessarily mention it if they did).

What am I supposed to believe about a religion which tries to justify slavery.

I regard Christianity as a religion (not an umbrella term for many religions) and that religion never “tried to justify slavery”, even if groups of Christians have tried to do so.

 

[Thorolfr]

Contradictions? Like what for example?

There are whole books on this subject. Just a few examples:

Numbers 10:29: Moses said to Hobab son of Reuel the Midianite, Moses’ father-in-law, “We are setting out for the place of which the Lord said, ‘I will give it to you’; come with us, and we will treat you well; for the Lord has promised good to Israel.”

Exodus 2:16-21: The priest of Midian had seven daughters. They came to draw water, and filled the troughs to water their father’s flock. 17 But some shepherds came and drove them away. Moses got up and came to their defense and watered their flock. 18 When they returned to their father Reuel, he said, “How is it that you have come back so soon today?” 19 They said, “An Egyptian helped us against the shepherds; he even drew water for us and watered the flock.” 20 He said to his daughters, “Where is he? Why did you leave the man? Invite him to break bread.” 21 Moses agreed to stay with the man, and he gave Moses his daughter Zipporah in marriage.

Exodus 3:1: Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian

So what was the name of Moses’ father-in-law? Was it Reuel, Hobab son of Reuel or Jethro?

 

[Peter_J]

There are whole books on this subject. Just a few examples:

Numbers 10:29: Moses said to Hobab son of Reuel the Midianite, Moses’ father-in-law, “We are setting out for the place of which the Lord said, ‘I will give it to you’; come with us, and we will treat you well; for the Lord has promised good to Israel.”

Exodus 2:16-21: The priest of Midian had seven daughters. They came to draw water, and filled the troughs to water their father’s flock. 17 But some shepherds came and drove them away. Moses got up and came to their defense and watered their flock. 18 When they returned to their father Reuel, he said, “How is it that you have come back so soon today?” 19 They said, “An Egyptian helped us against the shepherds; he even drew water for us and watered the flock.” 20 He said to his daughters, “Where is he? Why did you leave the man? Invite him to break bread.” 21 Moses agreed to stay with the man, and he gave Moses his daughter Zipporah in marriage.

Exodus 3:1: Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian

So what was the name of Moses’ father-in-law? Was it Reuel, Hobab son of Reuel or Jethro?

Seriously?

 

[Thorolfr]

Seriously?

These kinds of contradictions (of which there are quite a few throughout the Old and New Testament) are not earth-shaking, but they certainly don’t allow for an inerrant Scripture. A lot of Evangelicals act as if people who wrote Scripture were taking dictation directly from God.

 

[Thorolfr]

Earlier this years, I also read from Genesis through Samuel and have had a difficult time trying to explain the seemingly cruel God of the Old Testament to myself:

Numbers 15:32-36: When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp.” 36 The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.

1 Samuel 15:2-3: Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

 

[feed_me]

Debates here in CAF have really pushed me in this direction more than anything that has happened to me in some time. What am I supposed to believe about a religion which tries to justify slavery. St. Augustine wrote in his Enarrationes in Psalmos:

“if you see your slave living badly, what other punishment will you curb him with, if not the lash? Use it: do. God allows it. In fact he is angered if you don’t. But do it in a loving rather than a vindictive spirit.”

“Servumque ipsum tuum, si male viventem videris, non poena aliqua, non verberibus refrenabis? fiat hoc, fiat : admittit deus, imo reprehendit, si no fiat ; sed animo dilectionis fac : non animo ultionis.”

The Old Testament plainly allows slavery:

Leviticus 25:44-46

This kind of thing raises doubts in my mind about all religion, not just Christianity or Judaism.

You cant beat a person with a loving spirit, its always vindictive and evil and causes anger, revenge and bitterness to reside in the person who is recieving the beating, weather it is a child or slave. Thats why God comanded to spare the rod. Its like a molester telling a child they are doing what they want to the kid out of love when its the molesters evil desire to hurt the child for there pleasure… get real.

 

[commenter]

There are too many contradictions in Christian and Jewish Scriptures for me to consider them all inerrant.

Nor do I believe that all Truth resides in any one religious tradition or its sacred books. If that were the case, it would seem terribly unjust to me. To give an example, as one book I have reminded me recently, the great Maya ruler K’inich Janaab’ Pakal ascended the throne of the city state of Palenque in the rain forests what is now Chiapas, Mexico in July 615 A.D. And of course, the Maya of this area were not Christians and practiced a polytheistic form of religion which had developed in that part of the world over thousands of years and they would not find out about Christianity until the Spaniards came there more than 877 years later. And the people in this part of the world had been cut off from the Old World for about 10,000 years or more. So why would God abandon these people there for hundreds and thousands of years with no knowledge of true religion and no knowledge of Christ if that is the only way to achieve salvation? Or maybe some of the Truth does reside in the religion which was practiced by the Maya which would mean that not all of the Truth resides in Christian Scripture. Maybe God is bigger and more complicated than what can fit in any one religious tradition and any one body of sacred texts.

C. S. Lewis had some good insights into this. He wrote that God had sent “good dreams” to pagans, some elements of truths, which some pagans responded to in their personal morality, and (people like Plato) building up to other truths. This is in his “Reflections on the Psalms”, and other works. The fact that incomplete truths are possible in one place does not rule out the possibility that the fullness of Truth might be available somewhere else. It also doesn’t mean this Mayan ruler was less moral than the popes of that century. Or you and me.

The fact that we can never know everything about the Trinity, or about Science, does not prove we can know nothing about these things. In earlier times people were more tempted to think they can learn everything about the Trinity. Today people make the opposite mistake. The fact that theologians and scientists are imperfect does not mean every doctrine of theology and science is equally true/false. Some are more reliable than others. Some sources, or channels, of Scientific knowledge - say Johns Hopkins University - are more reliable than the National Enquirer, for instance. Same with religion.

 

[KathleenGee]

PR…you bring in some of the best illustrations! That is a good one! Thanks! I don’t know if it made any effect on anyone…but it did me !

 

[TC3033]

I think many confuse coldness and reverence. We don’t talk in the sanctuary and maybe this is perceived as being cold. I don’t think they understand that.

Nope, many understand.

In this thread alone I’ve laid out my experiences, outside the sanctuary, a handful of times.

Fathers that want nothing to do with you once they know you’re not catholic.

Not allowed or asked to participate in the Parrish festival.

Asterisking your name on Church communications/directories.

I might be able to go back in the thread and find my more detailed posts. For me it’s a large fundamental difference that I personally can’t get passed.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Nope, many understand.

In this thread alone I’ve laid out my experiences, outside the sanctuary, a handful of times.

Fathers that want nothing to do with you once they know you’re not catholic.

Not allowed or asked to participate in the Parrish festival.

Asterisking your name on Church communications/directories.

Do I need to go on about how many Evangelicals can feel unwelcomed to the Catholic church. It’s pretty black and white, if you ask me.

I guess I do have one question. I wouldn’t go to a Protestant Church and try and engage the pastor and parishioners (beyond attending a service maybe) unless I wanted to join them. I would be afraid a pastor would take offense if I approached him as “non-Protestant” more than once or twice. Ditto the parishioners. I have thought about that - talking to Eastern Catholics or Orthodox or Lutherans/Protestants about what they believe, etc. but why if you are not interested in joining - do you see my point? (I did do community volunteering at a Lutheran Church but I was contributing as a community volunteer) Maybe I am missing some of the basic information in your circumstances. Are you trying to convert or considering it?

 

[TC3033]

I guess I do have one question. I wouldn’t go to a Protestant Church and try and engage the pastor and parishioners (beyond attending a service maybe) unless I wanted to join them. I would be afraid a pastor would take offense if I approached him as “non-Protestant” more than once or twice. Ditto the parishioners. I have thought about that - talking to Eastern Catholics or Orthodox or Lutherans/Protestants about what they believe, etc. but why if you are not interested in joining - do you see my point? (I did do community volunteering at a Lutheran Church but I was contributing as a community volunteer) Maybe I am missing some of the basic information in your circumstances. Are you trying to convert or considering it?

My wife is Catholic, when we moved to our town she wanted to join this particular Church and get married there. Pretty obvious we didn’t. If I remember correctly we would have had to pay for the Church and he wasn’t too hot on performing our ceremony anyway.

We found out later that many Parishioners left for other nearby Churches due to this Fathers stance on many issues, one of them being non-Catholics. That’s one thing that I have learned. It was a bit trial by fire for me, and my initial initiation wasn’t the best so I’m learning. I didn’t understand that the Father can tend to move around and his beliefs could really speak for the Churches. It’s not like I just picked out a Church and started going after members. My wife wanted to join, I thought I was a package deal like in my Evangelical background. What I experienced (right or wrong) early on, it was quite off putting. It made me, as an Evangelical, unwelcome and singled out as different.

We’re (her and the kids) back at the initial Church now as the Father there now seems more accepting. We do still try to go to the Lutheran (ELCA) church in town now and then so I can receive.

 

[FollowChrist34]

My wife is Catholic, when we moved to our town she wanted to join this particular Church and get married there. Pretty obvious we didn’t. If I remember correctly we would have had to pay for the Church and he wasn’t too hot on performing our ceremony anyway.

We found out later that many Parishioners left for other nearby Churches due to this Fathers stance on many issues, one of them being non-Catholics. That’s one thing that I have learned. It was a bit trial by fire for me, and my initial initiation wasn’t the best so I’m learning. I didn’t understand that the Father can tend to move around and his beliefs could really speak for the Churches. It’s not like I just picked out a Church and started going after members. My wife wanted to join, I thought I was a package deal like in my Evangelical background. What I experienced (right or wrong) early on, it was quite off putting. It made me, as an Evangelical, unwelcome and singled out as different.

We’re (her and the kids) back at the initial Church now as the Father there now seems more accepting. We do still try to go to the Lutheran (ELCA) church in town now and then so I can receive.

Got it - thanks. I think priests (and laity) at any Church (Catholic or Protestant), being individuals (and sinners ) can be off putting, whether intentionally or not. I have had situations where I was rubbed the wrong way - the good news, and it sounds like you already know this, is that not all priests and laity are the same. I am glad things are at least improving. I will say that one parish can be as different from the next as night and day - a good thing. Usually in a Catholic parish you can find somebody who will explain why they do what they do in a fairly humane articulate way…this is true also for Protestants of course too.

I guess that is kind of the point of the thread - how welcoming parishes are to the stranger…again, glad things are looking up. (and you can go up for a blessing at communion - I did that usually before I was confirmed because I disliked sitting there with everyone walking up; you feel much less left out if you go up; as I recall you just cross your hands at your shoulders - it is some gesture you do - they’ll tell you what it is)

 

[TC3033]

Got it - thanks. I think priests (and laity) at any Church (Catholic or Protestant), being individuals (and sinners ) can be off putting, whether intentionally or not. I have had situations where I was rubbed the wrong way - the good news, and it sounds like you already know this, is that not all priests and laity are the same. I am glad things are at least improving. I will say that one parish can be as different from the next as night and day - a good thing. Usually in a Catholic parish you can find somebody who will explain why they do what they do in a fairly humane articulate way…this is true also for Protestants of course too.

I guess that is kind of the point of the thread - how welcoming parishes are to the stranger…again, glad things are looking up. (and you can go up for a blessing at communion - I did that usually before I was confirmed because I disliked sitting there with everyone walking up; you feel much less left out if you go up; as I recall you just cross your hands at your shoulders - it is some gesture you do - they’ll tell you what it is)

Thanks!

I did verify with the priest if he believed in blessing those not receiving, and it is something that he whole heartedly believes in. I’m still 50/50 on going up though, really due to some of the comments I’ve read on here about the practice.

 

[Michael68]

Thanks!

I did verify with the priest if he believed in blessing those not receiving, and it is something that he whole heartedly believes in. I’m still 50/50 on going up though, really due to some of the comments I’ve read on here about the practice.

Our parish does the blessing for anybody at communion. As mentioned just cross your arms over your chest and the priest will know and give you a blessing

 

[FollowChrist34]

Yes, I liked it actually - I recommend it. Made me feel like part of the group. Obviously you can be praying to God on your own the whole time you approach and return to your seat for a few moments, which I always did (or usually anyway, that is unless I am distracted by somebody’s weird outfit - ideally that is when I do my prayers for the week, after communion (blessing…)

 

[JustaServant]

Nope, many understand.

In this thread alone I’ve laid out my experiences, outside the sanctuary, a handful of times.

Fathers that want nothing to do with you once they know you’re not catholic.

Not allowed or asked to participate in the Parrish festival.

Asterisking your name on Church communications/directories.

I might be able to go back in the thread and find my more detailed posts. For me it’s a large fundamental difference that I personally can’t get passed.

Did it ever occur to you that this experience might just be with this particular parish? I have never heard of any Catholic parish doing what is described above.

 

[Michael68]

Yes, I liked it actually - I recommend it. Made me feel like part of the group. Obviously you can be praying to God on your own the whole time you approach and return to your seat for a few moments, which I always did (or usually anyway, that is unless I am distracted by somebody’s weird outfit - ideally that is when I do my prayers for the week, after communion (blessing…)

Cool! I pray the whole way to receive communion also!!!

 

[PRmerger]

PR…you bring in some of the best illustrations! That is a good one! Thanks! I don’t know if it made any effect on anyone…but it did me !

:curtsey: