Why is God so mean?

[anEvilAtheist]

I am an artful dodger, am I? An argumentum ad hominem.

No, an ad hominem argument would be if I were to claim that your argument was wrong because you were stupid, or because you were too young to know better (neither of which I am claiming are true). I think Wikipedia gives a good definition of an ad hominem argument when it says that such an argument “consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.” I have substantively replied to all your arguments and have never said that your arguments were wrong because of any characteristic you may have. I merely stated that you had dodged my question in the hopes that saying this would actually lead to you answer my question.

There would have to be strict limits to the force of the wind, astronomical conditions, underground earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and other climatic causes wherever there is going to be a tsunami or hurricane. Not only the level and force of the waves but many other factors would have to be altered which would certainly have repercussions leading to other disasters elsewhere.

The only thing that God would need to control is the water itself. If he kept it in the ocean and kept the waves from becoming too large, this would prevent tsunamis and hurricanes.

One miracle does not lead to other disasters.

So God can do one miracle without any chance of causing any other disasters. How many can he do? Can he do a second one without any risk, but then he is unable to do a third one without catastrophic consequences?! God is omnipotent, and it seems ludicrous to think that God is able to perform a miracle, but only if he has not already reached the cap on the number of times he can perform that miracle.

There have been examples of God parting the Red Sea, and God calming the waters. It seems arbitrary to say that because God has done these things in the past, he may now be unable to do them in the future without causing natural disasters. I am really interested in hearing the reasons why you believe what you do.

Did God need to alter astronomical conditions in order to do so? God can merely cause the water itself to change without any need to mess with all the things you talk about.

So for a certain number of miracles, God can perform them with no problem, but after a certain number, he has to alter the astronomical conditions?! Please explain what you mean.

In other words you foresee the insurmountable problems entailed by preventing every single accident.

I think God could prevent every single accident if he wanted to. The issue is whether this would be a better way of achieving his goals. You have still refused to acknowledge that God could prevent some natural disasters from taking place. Once you acknowledge that there are natural disasters that God could have prevented, we can discuss whether this is any evidence whatsoever against the existence of the Catholic God.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

You still have not defined a disaster.

I think we both have a general idea of what is commonly meant when we say natural disaster. However, how we define it does not really matter. The question is whether there are hurricanes and tsunamis that inflict great suffering on people, and which God could prevent. If there are, then there must be some reason why God permits them. I think that it would be hard to call a God that inflicts profound suffering for no reason omnibenevolent.

As long as you think that hurricanes and tsunamis cause some evil then there are natural evils.

I don’t know what you mean.

If all the atoms of the universe be laid out in whatever arrangement God wanted at every single second what would happen to the order and regularity in nature? The part of my post that you declined to respond to addresses this issue.

I have always tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but this comment of yours really makes me wonder. I’d be interested in hearing an explanation for it. I had copied and pasted the quote I was referring to and put it in a quote block immediately following my statement that: “The part of my post that you declined to respond to addresses this issue.” In fact, in my original version of this statement, I had a colon at the end instead of a period in order to indicate that the statement I was referring to immediately followed. You changed the colon to a period when you quoted my statement. I’ll still give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was just an innocent mistake, but I am a little curious about how that happened.

“consistently” is the operative word. The events at Fatima hardly come into that category.

Exactly, which is why I think that a perpetual miracle which shows no signs of divine involvement shows far more consistency than what happened in Fatima.

If something happens every single time, people do not assume that it has a supernatural cause. When there is something that happens consistently but has no known cause, scientists typically conclude that there is a natural explanation and that it is just not yet know. While some did see the sun moving across the sky, or the development of humans as miraculous before cosmology and evolution were understood, they could not be universally accepted as miraculous merely because the cause was unknown.

I do not assume this. But I know that when modern scientists find a consistent pattern that they cannot explain, they typically assume that there is a scientific explanation, which is merely not yet known. This assumption has proven right countless times. My point is that the existence of an unexplained phenomenon is not proof of God. Fortunately for the families of scientists, there is still work left to be done, new questions to be answered, and unexplained phenomena to be explained.

It’s beginning to seem like you are more concerned with winning the argument than with genuinely exploring this topic. However, I hope I’m completely wrong.

I am curious what definition of argumentum ad hominem you are using. I have responded substantively to all your points, never once saying that they should be given any less respect because you were the one who made them.

I mentioned this because I really hope that we can both do a good job explaining why we think the other person’s points are wrong, rather than merely reiterating old points that have already been answered. If I think your points are wrong, I try to give good reasons why they are wrong. If you think that my points are wrong, I hope that you will always do the same.

 

[jkiernan56]

Absolutely!

So I-I say to You: Wake up!! YOU’re dreaming!

~

Do you understand the difference between “the WORD” and “a word”?
It is the difference between God and me.
It is the difference between infinity and finite.
It is the difference between unlimited and limited.
It is the difference between BEING and not being.

Christ (the Person) is “the WORD”

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. " John 1:1

Jim (the person) is “a word”.

"Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, ** and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

   So God created man in his own image, 
   in the image of God he created him; 
   male and female he created them. "

Genesis 1:26 - 27

---

Then God spoke … and created Jim … Jim is a “word” … I am a “word”

Psalm 8:3-9

3 When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,

4 what is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?

5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings [c]
and crowned him with glory and honor.

6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands;
you put everything under his feet:

7 all flocks and herds,
and the beasts of the field,

8 the birds of the air,
and the fish of the sea,
all that swim the paths of the seas.

9 O LORD, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!**

 

[Charlemagne_II]

*It’s beginning to seem like you are more concerned with winning the argument than with genuinely exploring this topic. However, I hope I’m completely wrong. *

I’d call it a patronizing ad hominem. I taught introductory logic for many years and this is certainly ad hominem.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

anEvilAtheist

Everybody dies. Does that mean God is cruel when he could stop everyone from dying?

 

[jkiernan56]

When Genesis 1 states that God created man in the image of God … He created them “male and female” … there is a tremendous truth here …

There are many ways to understand what is meant by the words “in the image of God”. I hold the understanding that our likeness to God is in having the same two faculties God has: intellect and will

For humans, there are 2 faculties of the soul. We are “like” God in our ability to understand (knowledge) and to perform actions (choose).

We are also “like” God in the communion of love between the opposite sex and in community (co-unity) with others.

I also reject any idea or ideas that might lead one to think that being created in the image of God means that we (I-I) are God. We (I-I) are not God. God is completely OTHER. What God has created is not God. God does not need or depend on what He has created for His own existence.

He is the artist - we are the painting.

 

[jkiernan56]

*It’s beginning to seem like you are more concerned with winning the argument than with genuinely exploring this topic. However, I hope I’m completely wrong. *

I’d call it a patronizing ad hominem. I taught introductory logic for many years and this is certainly ad hominem.

Would you please tell me who are you responding to with these comments?

 

[jkiernan56]

"'Listen, Israel: Yahweh our God is the one, the only Yahweh.

You must love Yahweh your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength.

Let the words I enjoin on you today stay in your heart. "

Deuteronony 6:4-6

Only God is God. You and I are not God. You and I are not “part” of God. God is completely OTHER and not dependant on anything for His own existence. He is the cause of all existence and whose own existence is not caused. He is the Primary Mover. There was no “need” in God to “move” at all in creation. It was God’s sheer will and delight to create the universe, to give us a “likeness” to God that we could enter into a free relationship with God in the good and proper use of our intellects and will. We were created to KNOW and LOVE God. God does not force this on anyone. God did not create us with our consent. We will not go to heaven without our consent. Yes, I do believe with all my heart that there is a place that God has created - heaven - where we are meant to live with God in a union of love that will last forever - with God and with each other - a community that will be beyond our wildest imaginations … where there will be no more tears … anyone who is in Christ is a new creation - it is the very reason God sent His Beloved Son and why the Beloved Son chose to become man - to make us new creations and save us from the power and death of sin - new creations as adopted sons and daughters of God … sons and daughters that will live forever … and forever live with God’s LIFE and LOVE.

 

[jkiernan56]

God is NOT mean. God is so sooooo … Good.
He allows evil because He is Good … and is able to bring Good even out of evil … for those who ears to hear and eyes to see … Christ said you must be “born again” to enter the kingdom of God, we must become like children … meaning a new birth … a new birth with new hearts that only desire to love God and to love those He has created … all this is possible ONLY through the passion, death, and resurrection of Christ - the eternal Son and “WORD” of the Father … fully God and fully man … in this “evil” of Christ’s crucifixion and death … God brings that greatest Good … adopted sons and daughters of God reborn through Christs merits … a Church of people who are the spotless Bride of Christ … the Church.

We are a gift of the Father to His Son in creation.
We are a gift of the Son to His Father in the redemption.
We are a gift of the Holy Spirit to the Father and Son through sanctification.

What more beautiful gifts could God the Father give His Son and vice versa … adopted sons and daughters of God conformed to the “Image of His Son” … fully what God has always intended for each of us … Holy as God is Holy …

"See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He (M)appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. " 1 John 3:1-

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 1:1-7

 

[One]

Whoa, boy! Whoa…

 

[anEvilAtheist]

anEvilAtheist

Everybody dies. Does that mean God is cruel when he could stop everyone from dying?

No, I never argued that it did. I never claimed to have any proof that God is cruel. I have merely been arguing that God could prevent the suffering caused by natural disasters if he had so desired.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

*It’s beginning to seem like you are more concerned with winning the argument than with genuinely exploring this topic. However, I hope I’m completely wrong. *

I’d call it a patronizing ad hominem. I taught introductory logic for many years and this is certainly ad hominem.

I never said that his motives had anything to do with whether his points were correct (or that I knew what his motives were). I said that so that hopefully I would get more substantive replies. We’ve been going in circles.

 

[jkiernan56]

Whoa, boy! Whoa…

:coffeeread:


:harp:
:shamrock2:

It is my firm conviction that all roads lead to Christ and His Church. Anything that does not I would say the train has come off the tracks or never gotten on the tracks to begin with. That does not imply any judgement of those who do not believe in God or even the God of Christianity.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

jkiernan

Would you please tell me who are you responding to with these comments?

Post # 427.

 

[4Horsemen]

I wasn’t trying to say that if a single miracle takes place then people are constantly confused about what will happen. The post I was responding to said that a rational existence was possible if there were a lot of “miracles”. I was saying that if a miracle happens in the same situation every time, people incorporate it into their knowledge of how the world works, and it doesn’t interfere with rational existence at all. My point was that if there are occasional miracles, this actually leaves people more uncertain because they don’t know when one will come. I’m not saying that occasional miracles are wrong (far from it); I am saying that if you say things must always be orderly, it’s more orderly for the same thing to happen every single time.

You are mistaken about what a miracle is. A miracle can’t happen “in the same situation every time” for that would just signify the natural order of things. A miracle is an extraordinary occurrence unexplained by nature.

1. an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
2. such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.
3. a wonder; marvel.
4. a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.

I don’t think the people who experienced Jesus’ miracles left them “uncertain because they don’t know when one will come.” That doesn’t make sense because it doesn’t follow that something extraordinary that happens occasionally should breed uncertainty. In fact, it makes the case for the certainty of God’s existence and love.

Good point. I didn’t know there was a specific example of this from the Bible. Obviously if God was trying to prevent all evil, he wouldn’t have to calm the seas in so obvious a way. He would instead know when they were about to get agitated and prevent that.

God created angels before men. Both have free will. He’s just dealing with the fallout from sin. That proves His benevolence. He could have condemned all of humanity. Instead He sent His Beloved Son to save us, because He loves us so desperately. Hard to comprehend, isn’t it?

Blessings,
4

 

[Detales]

Hmmmm… Tracks… Two paralell lines tied together allowing the convenience of movement of a train (of thought.) Hmmmm…Where did those tracks come from? They came from people acting on thoughts organized around ideas called “train” which taken together might be called “immediacy.” Where did that idea of immediacy come from? Having a destinaton in mind, the percieved distance invoked a remedy for the feeling of separation, which remedy utilized the contents of the fields of awareness of a group called a society and its constitiuents. What was the commonality of the fields of awareness that allowsed the ideas to organize thoughts and actions, and was the field from which those ideas sprung? Consciousness, the ALL containing field which includes the idea “MAN.”

If we proceed in the actual order of events, we can deduce the template of percipitation by means of our link to Divinity called Soul: “Consciousness is the Light to the awareness of ideas and thoughts.” Examine *anything *manifest by man and trace it back thus. Is there any exception to this heirarchy? Even revelation? What then is the Source of that revelation?

You guys are breaking me up. I’m really sorry I have so much on my plate right now. I’d like to go back a couple of pages and start there, but I just can’t right now.

'56, you astonish me. I have never seen a clearer realization so enmeshed in a belief system in my life outside a … (pauses and considers that the censors are watching). As far as I can tell by my lights, you have let a religion dictate to you the nature of your own experience. That’s from someone who at 17 had to deal with every accusation of being a freak for stating plainly his insight, wishing to share it with others, including heavy duty head-ons with clerics of the CC.

I’m guessing that unless you suppress it completly, you are going to get your three letter donkey bit real hard one day by your own self. I can elaborate, but not now. I’ve hinted at it in previous posts. But, again, I cannot over emphasise the fundamentally important nature of your absolutely genuine realization. You are not alone, despite choosing a particular framework of explanation for it. Nevertheless, “Gnothi Seauton.” you’re not done yet. And when you are, they won’t be able to stick a fork in you. You know, the one that the guy with two horns wears. Did you ever wonder why the Deceiver is depicted with two horns??? And a fork? Lord, no wonder the Master spoke in parables in public and took his chosen ones aside to impart His teaching. (Mark 4:33,34) My regret, as I have stated before, is that ones such as you have no safety net in which to fall. Aquinas isn’t here for you, neither is Eckhart, St Francis, St Catherine and a host of othere inside and outside the Church. And the links to those have been userped by lesser understandings. I really feel for you, brother.

 

[4Horsemen]

Well I don’t believe in sin at all, at least as I understand the concept. There may be definitions of the word ‘sin’ for which I would believe it exists, but I do not believe in it in the way it is normally used.

If there is no God, then I think the answer to why we are sometimes mean can be found in evolution. But if there is a God, I have no idea why he would want to make us so mean.

Would you consider murder a sin? Theft? Adultery? Sinful acts we do hurt not only others but also ourselves. We are joyful when goodness abounds. But we are sad at the prospect of evil. Doesn’t this tell you that we are made for goodness, for Goodness Himself?

Do you actually believe God makes us to be mean? Are you mean? Change the word “mean” to “sinful.” We surely can be mean; we can be sinful. God is making the crooked lines straight if we trust Him and invite Him into our lives. Try it, in all sincerity.
God never fails us.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

You are mistaken about what a miracle is. A miracle can’t happen “in the same situation every time” for that would just signify the natural order of things. A miracle is an extraordinary occurrence unexplained by nature.

1. an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
2. such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.
3. a wonder; marvel.
4. a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.

I agree that it wouldn’t make sense to call it a miracle if it happened every time. I was using the fact that God can perform whatever miracle he wants to show that if God always wanted to calm the seas, he could.

I don’t think the people who experienced Jesus’ miracles left them “uncertain because they don’t know when one will come.” That doesn’t make sense because it doesn’t follow that something extraordinary that happens occasionally should breed uncertainty. In fact, it makes the case for the certainty of God’s existence and love.

I was not saying that extreme uncertainty would be the result of performing miracles, I was saying that if something happens every time, such as the seas being kept calm, then there is actually slightly less certainty about that than about something where God sometimes performs miracles and sometimes does not. There certainly would not be more uncertainty as tonyrey was arguing.

That’s how His creation was before the Original Sin.

Okay, but why would God set things up so that the actions of Adam and Eve would cause future generations to suffer unless there was some good that would come from this suffering?

God created angels before men. Both have free will. He’s just dealing with the fallout from sin. That proves His benevolence. He could have condemned all of humanity. Instead He sent His Beloved Son to save us, because He loves us so desperately. Hard to comprehend, isn’t it?

Blessings,
4

I understand that God created angels before man and that both angels and men have free will. But you still haven’t shown that there are any problems with my argument that God would only have made Satan as powerful as he did if in the end, Satan would do more good than harm:

Why would an omniscient and omnipotent God, knowing what Satan would do, have created the angels such that their free will extended to the earthly realm (instead of just the spiritual realm)? God could have done all the good that they do himself with none of the evil. Free will does not entail omnipotence, or else God would be out of a job, and there are always some limits on what we are physically capable of doing. No matter how much I want to, I cannot make Jupiter disappear. So there is no reason that an omniscient God would have made Satan so powerful, unless a greater good would come of it.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

Would you consider murder a sin? Theft? Adultery? Sinful acts we do hurt not only others but also ourselves. We are joyful when goodness abounds. But we are sad at the prospect of evil. Doesn’t this tell you that we are made for goodness, for Goodness Himself?

Do you actually believe God makes us to be mean? Are you mean? Change the word “mean” to “sinful.” We surely can be mean; we can be sinful. God is making the crooked lines straight if we trust Him and invite Him into our lives. Try it, in all sincerity.
God never fails us.

If you define 'sin as “a morally bad act, an act not in accord with reason informed by the Divine law” (newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), then I don’t believe that any of those things are sins because I do not think there is any such thing as a God-given divine law. I don’t believe in God, so I don’t believe that God makes us to be mean. However, if God did exist, I’m sure there is a way he could have wired our brains to make us slightly less quick tempered.

 

[StrawberryJam]

God shows himself to have a quick temper so why should we be immune from such if we are created in his image and likeness?