Why is God so mean?

  • Thread starter Thread starter PJM
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Is there evil in the world? Yes. What is evil? Natural or moral departures from the law of God. A moral evil is manifested in sin, and sin is allowed by God because of the gift of free will. An atheist might make the case, but a very unconvincing one, that God could always make the bullets of one man miss another man. What would be the point? To save the victim? Yes, but at the price of taking away the free will of man. Sin would be impossible under this regime. But so would virtue. We would all be mere robots designed to go through our programmed motions.
No, God could have made us so we were physically incapable of inflicting severe physical suffering on other people. Just like God created me such that I am unable to make you float in the air, God could have made it so I could not inflict severe physical suffering on you.
A natural evil is manifested in an earthquake or a flood. This, the atheist argues, is either proof that God does not exist, or that God is mean spirited because God could prevent all natural disasters if He chose to do so. Supposedly this would show both his benificence and his power. But it would also show that the laws of nature He created were created for nothing. Floods and earthquakes are evidence of natural laws being fulfilled. So also was the creation of the planet Earth, the rise and fall of species on it, and the evolution of man to his present state. Were these events good or evil, kind or cruel?
Well I think that the concept of divine goodness is incoherent. I do not think that it is possible for God to be good in any meaningful way. So these events would not be good or evil in any meaningful way.
That nature produces events disastrous to the welfare of humanity is self evident. That God allows those events as a part of His mean spirited nature is not evident.
I agree. I do not claim that God must be mean or immoral if he exists.
There are too many other things in nature that are blessings to us all to conclude that God is mean spirited or powerless. We might as well argue that because we are all going to die, a law of our human nature, God was mean-spirited because He could have made us to live forever. (He does mean us to live forever.) The deduction atheists make is that God is either mean-spirited or God does not exist clearly shows that the atheist cannot believe in a mean-spirited God. Neither can we.
Not all atheists make the same deduction.
But it does not follow that God does not exist. What follows only is that we have not solved the mystery of evil entirely to our satisfaction. What the atheist is obliged to admit is that the problem of evil can only be rationally explained by a universe that is indifferent to our fate. How can that be when the universe created us and gave us the means by which to survive and to flourish? Ah, but the universe has no mind, the atheist replies. It is not capable of planning good or evil.

Then why should anything in the universe be capable of good or of evil, as even atheists will admit humans are capable? Exactly what are we talking about if not good and evil? And why did the universe create us if not to talk about good and evil, truth and lies, the beautiful and the ugly … even the birth and death of the universe?
Certainly it’s epistemologically possible that we will one day discover something that will resolve this, and other, apparent contradictions in Christianity, but that’s true of anything. If someone had declared thousands of years ago that pigs can, on their own, sprout wings and fly around, I would see this as a false statement. I suppose it’s theoretically possible that pigs have been hiding this talent from us or could still do it one day, but I don’t think it makes sense to see this as a true statement. So while the problem of evil does not disprove God, it does provide evidence his existence.

The universe is not a conscious being and so it is inappropriate to apply the labels good and evil to it. The weather may cause me suffering, but I do not say that the weather itself is evil. The issue of whether objective good and evil exist is not one that atheists are on agreement on. I make no claim to know whether objective morality exists. I will not defend the arguments of all atheists, just like I would not expect you to defend the arguments of all theists.
If the universe cares not a fig for us because it cannot care for anything, why don’t we just follow the example of Schopenahuer and sleep with a pistol under our pillow waiting for the zenith of ennui or despair? The Catholic answer is to pray that God is good, all powerful, and able to answer our needs if we but cry out to Him, even as we are washed over by a flood or swallowed up by the earth.
I don’t do that because I have no desire to do that. I enjoy life and I wouldn’t want to miss a minute of it.
 
Let us focus on the main issue of whether disasters can be prevented without interfering with a rational existence in which we are free to make our own decisions.
When there is something that happens consistently but has no known cause, scientists typically conclude that there is a natural explanation and that it is just not yet known.
Yes, but the events you describe are not just events that happen consistently (with or without a known cause) they are events that are distinguishable by the fact thatthey** prevent injury or death. **Can you point to any other universal law of nature that prevents injury or death?

Theret would be a new law of nature that water never rises beyond a level that causes death or injury to a person or animal. Even if we assume that this law could exist it would be unique and distinguishable from all other laws of nature. That alone would lead to investigation into how this law is related to other laws. The result would be that it is unrelated and is explicable only in terms of a benevolent force.

But then what about the disasters caused by storms, earthquakes, avalanches, blizzards, volcanic eruptions, landslides, heatwaves, droughts, epidemics, plagues of locusts, bushfires…? There would have to be many new laws to cover every single contingency that causes a human disaster. Only human? Then scientists would investigate why animals are not immune to disasters. If animals are immune which animals are immune? Are amoeba and other unicellular organisms included in immunity from pain, injury and death from disasters?

All these new laws would be distinguishable by the fact that they prevent injury or death. So there would be two classes of laws: those that prevent injury or death and those that do not prevent injury or death. How would they be related? Even if we suppose the unbelievable - that their relationship could be explained - the universe would become dualistic. Two sets of laws: one benevolent and the other indifferent. This phenomenon would certainly lead to a massive investigation. 🙂
 
It is my firm conviction that all roads lead to Christ and His Church.
Uh, yeah. I’m beginning to pick up on that. :rolleyes:
Anything that does not I would say the train has come off the tracks or never gotten on the tracks to begin with. That does not imply any judgement of those who do not believe in God or even the God of Christianity.
Your second sentence contradicts your first sentence. So, you’re a train derailment if you’re not on the tracks to Christ, but that’s not a judgment on your part? Surrrrre… okay.

:banghead:

~

In a similar way, your agreement to not split posts into multiple responses was quickly negated by the fact that you posted close to ten responses after you said you wouldn’t do that, with most of them directed at me. That’s just not very polite, in my opinion.

JK, as far as I’m concerned, this is the end of our conversation. For one thing, I’m going on vacation and will be unable to continue engaging you in this thread.

But more importantly, we’ve gotten to a point where minds are closed, and there’s not much sense in continuing. Many of your recent posts are just a rehash of your belief system, with the words rearranged slightly from time to time, but still indicating that no new ideas have been inserted into the equation.

~
 
Uh, yeah. I’m beginning to pick up on that. :rolleyes:

Your second sentence contradicts your first sentence. So, you’re a train derailment if you’re not on the tracks to Christ, but that’s not a judgment on your part? Surrrrre… okay.

:banghead:

In a similar way, your agreement to not split posts into multiple responses was quickly negated by the fact that you posted close to ten responses after you said you wouldn’t do that, with most of them directed at me. That’s just not very polite, in my opinion.

JK, as far as I’m concerned, this is the end of our conversation. For one thing, I’m going on vacation and will be unable to continue engaging you in this thread.

But more importantly, we’ve gotten to a point where minds are closed, and there’s not much sense in continuing. Many of your recent posts are just a rehash of your belief system, with the words rearranged slightly from time to time, but still indicating that no new ideas have been inserted into the equation.

~
OK - both gloves are coming off. I accept the challenge.

Excuse me, but I seem to recall a remark earlier that you would appreciate if I would answer your question. I’m sorry you don’t like the answer. 🤷

You seem to have a negative connotation and somewhat of a gun slinger mentality when you use the ‘Judgement’ word … I did not say those of other faiths or even those who do not believe in God are absolutely going to eternal damnation and to close the book on them. If that is your conclusion from my responses, you have misunderstood.

I make a choice each morning about what clothes I want to put on to go to work. I make judgments. So please be careful how you use that word. It disturbs me when people throw that word around when they really don’t even understand what Christ meant when He told others NOT to judge. It is obvious to me that your applying the label to me also shows your ignorance. Am I making a judgment when I acknowledge that 1+1=2?

I said that each person God has ever created is a “word” of God. I said that Christ is “the WORD” of God. Yes, it is my firm conviction as a result of my understanding of reality that all “words” of God must somehow at somepoint make their way back to “the WORD” through whom and FOR whom all other “words” were spoken. This is not a “judgment of others” according to the Christian definition of this word - but rather an acknowledgment of reality on my part according to how I have come to understand it.

One - you told me earlier in post #435 to wake up - that I was dreaming. You are not God or even a “part” of God. You are a “word” God has spoken that He need not have even spoken. Would you please respond to post #436… Frank Sheeds comments on Sanity? I don’t think you live in the real world yet. Don’t worry, I am not making a judgment that you are going to hell. That is not the kind of judgment I am making here. That alone is known to God and who alone can ‘judge’. I do make the observation that you have not found Christ yet - and in that sense I make a ‘judgement’ about you. Once you have found Christ - you have found the pearl in the field and according to St. Paul - everything else is RUBBISH in comparison.

I hope you have a nice vacation. More importantly, I hope and pray that one day you find Christ.
 
OK - both gloves are coming off. I accept the challenge.
That was not intended as a challenge, JK. I’m sorry that you interpreted it that way, but there was never any challenge implied in my post. It was me saying, “bye.”
 
Let us focus on the main issue of whether disasters can be prevented without interfering with a rational existence in which we are free to make our own decisions.

Yes, but the events you describe are not just events that happen consistently (with or without a known cause) they are events that are distinguishable by the fact thatthey** prevent injury or death. **Can you point to any other universal law of nature that prevents injury or death?
This would not be a natural law that prevents injury or death. This would be a natural law that leads to no hurricanes or tsunamis. We wouldn’t even know of hurricanes or tsunamis. And water already has some very weird and unique properties relative to other elements, and this would just be one more.
Theret would be a new law of nature that water never rises beyond a level that causes death or injury to a person or animal. Even if we assume that this law could exist it would be unique and distinguishable from all other laws of nature. That alone would lead to investigation into how this law is related to other laws. The result would be that it is unrelated and is explicable only in terms of a benevolent force.
I am not proposing that “water never rises beyond a level that causes death or injury to a person or animal”. God would simply make the seas such that they never got too agitated. No scientific theories are perfect, but just because current theories are not perfect predictors of what happens, scientists do not infer that there was a supernatural force.
But then what about the disasters caused by storms, earthquakes, avalanches, blizzards, volcanic eruptions, landslides, heatwaves, droughts, epidemics, plagues of locusts, bushfires…? There would have to be many new laws to cover every single contingency that causes a human disaster. Only human? Then scientists would investigate why animals are not immune to disasters. If animals are immune which animals are immune? Are amoeba and other unicellular organisms included in immunity from pain, injury and death from disasters?
We had both agreed to focus on whether God was physically able to eliminate any natural evils. I have claimed that he could eliminate hurricanes and tsunamis without causing even greater disasters as a result. Once we have established that, we can move on to issue like this.
All these new laws would be distinguishable by the fact that they prevent injury or death. So there would be two classes of laws: those that prevent injury or death and those that do not prevent injury or death. How would they be related? Even if we suppose the unbelievable - that their relationship could be explained - the universe would become dualistic. Two sets of laws: one benevolent and the other indifferent. This phenomenon would certainly lead to a massive investigation. 🙂
Again, you are arguing against a more naïve proposal than the one I am making.

I have asked you several questions in the last few messages which you have completely ignored. I do not enjoy having conversations in which the person I am talking to merely ignores what I have to say. So unless you are willing to answer some of the questions that I raised, I will not be replying any further. I apologize if this seems overly harsh.
 
anEvilAtheist

from post # 450. you said:

I have merely been arguing that God could prevent the suffering caused by natural disasters if he had so desired.

I guess I’ll have to rephrase my question, which perhaps wasn’t clearly enough stated, because your answer seems not to be responsive to the point I was trying to make.

All of us die. For all of us that is a kind of “natural” disaster. So do you think only a cruel God would make all of us die (whether by tsunami or in our bed) when he could have made all of us to live forever?

You see, the problem with your argument is that as an atheist you assume that there is no life to go on after death. In which case cutting short our lives by natural disaster might seem arbitrary and capricious on the part of God, giving some of us long lives and easy deaths, and others too short a life with an abrupt and violent ending, when he could have treated us all the same by giving us all eternal and pleasant lives.

But our belief is that God has done precisely that, because He is merciful and just, and has offered us eternal life with Him, whereas in your philosophy it doesn’t matter who you are, you are in a lose/lose situation … eternal death and nothingness for all without exception. I think I like my chances with God more than your chances with Nothingness. :eek:
 
anEvilAtheist

from post # 450. you said:

I have merely been arguing that God could prevent the suffering caused by natural disasters if he had so desired.

I guess I’ll have to rephrase my question, which perhaps wasn’t clearly enough stated, because your answer seems not to be responsive to the point I was trying to make.

All of us die. For all of us that is a kind of “natural” disaster. So do you think only a cruel God would make all of us die (whether by tsunami or in our bed) when he could have made all of us to live forever?

You see, the problem with your argument is that as an atheist you assume that there is no life to go on after death. In which case cutting short our lives by natural disaster might seem arbitrary and capricious on the part of God, giving some of us long lives and easy deaths, and others too short a life with an abrupt and violent ending, when he could have treated us all the same by giving us all eternal and pleasant lives.

But our belief is that God has done precisely that, because He is merciful and just, and has offered us eternal life with Him, whereas in your philosophy it doesn’t matter who you are, you are in a lose/lose situation … eternal death and nothingness for all without exception. I think I like my chances with God more than your chances with Nothingness. :eek:
I agree completely with what you’re saying (except about the validity of Pascal’s wager). Merely establishing that God could have let us live longer does nothing to show that he is mean. However, it does raise a whole host of other questions. For example, if our lives on earth have value, why did God set it up so that there would be so many miscarriages? Would their earthly lives have had no value? At the very least, I think an omnibenevolent God would have to send these babies to heaven. But if God can send them to heaven, why didn’t he send all of us straight to heaven. I would think that if heaven is infinitely more valuable than our earthly life, an omnibenevolent God would rather send us all straight to heaven instead of letting us be deceived by people who said that God is not real. But if our earthly lives have value, then it would not be omnibenevolent to cut short some of our lives. There’s a lot more I could say on this, and I certainly can’t explain the disagreements I have with every single theodicy in one post, but this hopefully gives you some idea of where I’m coming from.
 
anEvilAtheist

I would think that if heaven is infinitely more valuable than our earthly life, an omnibenevolent God would rather send us all straight to heaven instead of letting us be deceived by people who said that God is not real.

I can live with that preference, but I guess God wanted us to earn it on our own.
 
I am not proposing that “water never rises beyond a level that causes death or injury to a person or animal”.God would simply make the seas such that they never got too agitated.
By “too agitated” I understand you to mean “not agitated enough to cause a disaster” which is equivalent to “the water level never rises and falls so much and so quickly that it kills many people”. An indeterminate number of people would presumably still be killed by water but it would be fewer than the present number. It would be common knowledge all over the world that it is safer to be on water than on land, in the air or underground. So the same problem of a benevolent law of nature would arise unless the other disasters are also eliminated. But this would have the same effect of creating two classes of laws: benevolent and neutral.

All this is assuming that this new property of water is compatible not only with the existing properties of water but also with the law of gravitation, the laws of motion and other physical laws.To modify the properties of water would entail imposing limits on the effect of the wind and the moon on the sea and the temperature at which water freezes and evaporates amongst many other factors.
But then what about the disasters caused by storms, earthquakes, avalanches, blizzards, volcanic eruptions, landslides, heatwaves, droughts, epidemics, plagues of locusts, bushfires…? There would have to be many new laws to cover every single contingency that causes a human disaster. Only human? Then scientists would investigate why animals are not immune to disasters. If animals are immune which animals are immune? Are amoeba and other unicellular organisms included in immunity from pain, injury and death from disasters?
We had both agreed to focus on whether God was physically able to eliminate any natural evils. I have claimed that he could eliminate hurricanes and tsunamis without causing even greater disasters as a result. Once we have established that, we can move on to issues like this.
As far as I can see it is impossible to make such a change in the movement of the sea in isolation from the surrounding elements. That such a project is feasible is a speculative hypothesis for which there is no evidence and it certainly needs to be established experimentally.
All these new laws would be distinguishable by the fact that they prevent injury or death. So there would be two classes of laws: those that prevent injury or death and those that do not prevent injury or death. How would they be related? Even if we suppose the unbelievable - that their relationship could be explained - the universe would become dualistic. Two sets of laws: one benevolent and the other indifferent. This phenomenon would certainly lead to a massive investigation.
Again, you are arguing against a more naïve proposal than the one I am making.
Your proposal is that there are new sets of laws preventing disasters because it would be illogical to confine the changes to hurricanes or tsunamis. It is necessary to explain in what respects your proposal is not so naïve.
I have asked you several questions in the last few messages which you have completely ignored.
I had the impression I had already answered them but I shall answer them so that there is no doubt.
God is omnipotent, and it seems ludicrous to think that God is able to perform a miracle, but only if he has not already reached the cap on the number of times he can perform that miracle.
It is not a question of God being limited to the number of times he can perform a miracle but of the world becoming predictably benevolent in certain circumstances.
There have been examples of God parting the Red Sea, and God calming the waters. It seems arbitrary to say that because God has done these things in the past, he may now be unable to do them in the future without causing natural disasters.
Parting the Red Sea (and other seas) - if it occurred - and calming the waters were very rare if not unique events strictly circumscribed in time and space. That is vastly different from doing so whenever and wherever people are in danger.
So for a certain number of miracles, God can perform them with no problem, but after a certain number, he has to alter the astronomical conditions?! Please explain what you mean.
The suspension of the laws of nature on a few occasions is a totally different matter from suspending them on every occasion.
Stopping a clock for a few minutes does not affect life radically but to stop it for a few minutes repeatedly has drastic effects.
To stop water flowing for an hour on one occasion hardly interferes with the sea but to do so repeatedly must affect the distribution of water unless its properties are changed permanently.
I think God could prevent every single accident if he wanted to. The issue is whether this would be a better way of achieving his goals. You have still refused to acknowledge that God could prevent some natural disasters from taking place.
I have acknowledged that God could have prevented all natural disasters but with devastating consequences for a rational, independent existence.
 
anEvilAtheist

I would think that if heaven is infinitely more valuable than our earthly life, an omnibenevolent God would rather send us all straight to heaven instead of letting us be deceived by people who said that God is not real.

I can live with that preference, but I guess God wanted us to earn it on our own.
Charlemagne,

What is your understanding about Lucifer? Where was he before going to hell? Was he in heaven? Is he in hell right now? I admit I have alot to learn about Angels.
 
jkiernan

*What is your understanding about Lucifer? *

The fall of Lucifer and the change of his name to Satan is described in the *Catholic Encyclopedia *as follows:

newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm

It is an interesting theme because in the case of Lucifer no opportunity is offered for the Devil to repent. Presumably, Lucifer’s decision was final, and God banished him accordingly. This will be the same banishment received by those who choose to reject Christ in their final moments. My understanding is that this is the sin against the Holy Spirit, which when finally decided is not forgivable. However, unbelief can be forgiven if sincere faith is declared before the hour of death.

Christ himself, having been given to the world by the Holy Spirit as its saving Grace, warns us that rejection of the gift is fatal.

Matthew 10:32-33

A doctor of sacred theology might disagree or phrase these thoughts differently.
 
jkiernan

*What is your understanding about Lucifer? *

The fall of Lucifer and the change of his name to Satan is described in the *Catholic Encyclopedia *as follows:

newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm

It is an interesting theme because in the case of Lucifer no opportunity is offered for the Devil to repent. Presumably, Lucifer’s decision was final, and God banished him accordingly. This will be the same banishment received by those who choose to reject Christ in their final moments. My understanding is that this is the sin against the Holy Spirit, which when finally decided is not forgivable. However, unbelief can be forgiven if sincere faith is declared before the hour of death.

Christ himself, having been given to the world by the Holy Spirit as its saving Grace, warns us that rejection of the gift is fatal.

Matthew 10:32-33

A doctor of sacred theology might disagree or phrase these thoughts differently.
What do you think of my earlier comment on Satan?
Why would an omniscient and omnipotent God, knowing what Satan would do, have created the angels such that their free will extended to the earthly realm (instead of just the spiritual realm)? God could have done all the good that they do himself with none of the evil. Free will does not entail omnipotence, or else God would be out of a job, and there are always some limits on what we are physically capable of doing. No matter how much I want to, I cannot make Jupiter disappear. So there is no reason that an omniscient God would have made Satan so powerful, unless a greater good would come of it.
 
jkiernan

*What is your understanding about Lucifer? *

The fall of Lucifer and the change of his name to Satan is described in the *Catholic Encyclopedia *as follows:

newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm

It is an interesting theme because in the case of Lucifer no opportunity is offered for the Devil to repent. Presumably, Lucifer’s decision was final, and God banished him accordingly. This will be the same banishment received by those who choose to reject Christ in their final moments. My understanding is that this is the sin against the Holy Spirit, which when finally decided is not forgivable. However, unbelief can be forgiven if sincere faith is declared before the hour of death.

Christ himself, having been given to the world by the Holy Spirit as its saving Grace, warns us that rejection of the gift is fatal.

Matthew 10:32-33

A doctor of sacred theology might disagree or phrase these thoughts differently.
I read the Catholic Enycyclopedia on Lucifer you referred me to. Here is one statement that seemed to jump out at me -

"Although nothing definite can be known as to the precise nature of the probation of the angels and the manner in which many of them fell, many theologians have conjectured, with some show of probability, that the mystery of the Divine Incarnation was revealed to them, that they saw that a nature lower than their own was to be hypostatically united to the Person of God the Son, and that all the hierarchy of heaven must bow in adoration before the majesty of the Incarnate Word; and this, it is supposed, was the occasion of the pride of Lucifer (cf. Suarez, De Angelis, lib. VII, xiii). "

The words “probation of the angels” is what in particular struck me. It seems to me that the angels were not in heaven when they fell, but rather in a place or state of probation. In other words, God did not hand them heaven from the moment of their existence. God did not hand us heaven either from the moment of our existence. God does not give heaven to anyone without their desire, consent and willingness to cooperate with God.

If God had created the angels or the human race directly in the place and state of heaven, it seems inconcievable that they or we would want to choose anything other than our greatest Good - which is God. It was God’s choice to create us in the manner that He did. It wasn’t God’s will to give us heaven without our wanting it and cooperation to obtain it. It is a gift that He offers to each of us. It is a gift we can accept or refuse. God does not “force” heaven or His will on anyone.
 
I read the Catholic Enycyclopedia on Lucifer you referred me to. Here is one statement that seemed to jump out at me -

"Although nothing definite can be known as to the precise nature of the probation of the angels and the manner in which many of them fell, many theologians have conjectured, with some show of probability, that the mystery of the Divine Incarnation was revealed to them, that they saw that a nature lower than their own was to be hypostatically united to the Person of God the Son, and that all the hierarchy of heaven must bow in adoration before the majesty of the Incarnate Word; and this, it is supposed, was the occasion of the pride of Lucifer (cf. Suarez, De Angelis, lib. VII, xiii). "

The words “probation of the angels” is what in particular struck me. It seems to me that the angels were not in heaven when they fell, but rather in a place or state of probation. In other words, God did not hand them heaven from the moment of their existence. God did not hand us heaven either from the moment of our existence. God does not give heaven to anyone without their desire, consent and willingness to cooperate with God.

If God had created the angels or the human race directly in the place and state of heaven, it seems inconcievable that they or we would want to choose anything other than our greatest Good - which is God. It was God’s choice to create us in the manner that He did. It wasn’t God’s will to give us heaven without our wanting it and cooperation to obtain it. It is a gift that He offers to each of us. It is a gift we can accept or refuse. God does not “force” heaven or His will on anyone.
In my view, the “garden” was Adam and Eve’s “place of probation”.
 
David

*In my view, the “garden” was Adam and Eve’s “place of probation”. *

Good point. And it was a place of trial, when and where a decision had to be made whether Adam & Eve would be worthy of staying in Eden or be driven out because they had chosen to disobey. Why God allows the children of Adam a chance still to be saved, and why He did not offer that same choice to Lucifer, is a mystery that we won’t be able to solve. As I suggested earlier, perhaps God knew immediately that the decision of Lucifer and his angels was a final one, and therefore there was no forgiving. For us it is not a final one until the hour of our death.
 
Very intelligent move to introduce a fallen angel here. How symbolic. Since your original question specifically named Lucifer, at newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm I found:

Lucifer
(Hebrew helel; Septuagint heosphoros, Vulgate lucifer)

The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for “the light of the morning” …(and) finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the “Exultet” of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life. (underline mine)

The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, “to lament”; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1.14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).

~~

“Lucifer” originally means “Light Bearer” or “Bearer of Light.” As an Archangel he represents one of the higher faculties given to Man, similarly to the twelve Apostles each representing a faculty of Man unified and elevated under the power of the Christ, or God realization. This Archangel “fell” because he so loved God he refused to bow or acknowledge the hypostasis of Man, or the material form manifest as a particularization of God Himself in Creation.

Lucifer represents the loss of Right Identity made necessary by the descent into material sense of the undifferentiated Divine Consciousness. The baby, “flying” over the abyss of materiality, doesn’t yet distinguish itself as different from its surroundings. So far, it is yet united as awareness to Consciousness and Identification as “I AM.” But eventually it “falls” for the suggestion of “me” and “that” as it experiences sensual distinction between its body, which it’s awareness seems associated with, and objects that are not portable with the bodily sense of “me”. Thus arises the mode of subject/object awareness, which clouds the fact the even the object portion of experience yet takes place in the mind of the perceiver. Without that mind present, there is no experience, or the necessity of creation, as '56 has correctly explicated. In other words, Creation is a phenomenon interiorly experienced in Mind refracted on the infinity of possibility within itself.

This is a description of the particular fall as distinct from the alleged fall of Man as a species. It is analogous to the particular and general judgments. In this case the general “fall” is in fact the rise of the awareness through the unfolding of creation on our space/time line to the point where the material vehicle was capable of supporting self-reflection, an ability beyond that of animals. Mostly. But this self reflection brought with it the ability to see “good” and “evil,” or polarities of identification relative to feeling of self integrity. In the sense intended here, that means the advancement from an instinctual participation in the animal phase of awareness to the ability to perceive and feel projected and immediate consequences with “self” as object. This ability to see oneself as object primarily distinguishes man from the animals and gives rise to the phenomenon both of s/o awareness and the ability to manipulate the laws of matter and energy, even psychic energy. It also includes the potential, at least, of perceiving and identifying the “other” as “self” which is love beyond the instinctive, but including it.

That synopsizes the idea of the fall of Lucifer, and opens the stage for the idea of “Michael” to enter, and for the further meaning of redemption and salvation relative to the human mode of awareness relative to Consciousness, IS, or I AM.
Code:
What I find continually astonishing about the Church is that, IMHO, it uses its phenomenal and formidable intellectual might to sustain one particular stream of the mythology surrounding transformation as *history*, thereby suppressing and denying the actual spiritual dynamic of incarnation, redemption, and salvation. That is why I underlined above. The misunderstanding of the Lucifer figure is simply part and parcel of  what I think is the metaphysical tragedy of Catholicism. The Church, it seems to me, devotes itself to the propagation of an artificial way of keeping God at arms length by using an actual Teacher and his self appointed ad-man, Paul, as unwitting props in a power play. (see early Church history) The destruction is incalculable, but imaginary, as well, so ultimately it matters little if any. The story of the star fish on the beach applies here.

The accuracy of the individuals who have penetrated the myth despite the Church bears its own authority, despite the distortions of those who do not have the experiential capacity to understand them. I include in that litany of the accomplished many, such as Aquinas, Meister Eckhart, St. Catherine of Sienna, St Francis, and many others. They didn't and couldn't have known, given the ways and means of their times, of their cadres of Brothers and Sisters in other lands and times. Had they, as we can today, been able to know of them, we would have, no doubt, had far different contextual report from them than what they necessarily left in the context of Catholicism. A survey of the summations of the higher realizations of these Saints, compared to those other non-Catholic Sages throughout history, would easily reveal this to the critical student. But unexamined pious faith, as I have previously delineated, is a prophylactic to this most fruitful of studies in synthesis.
 
David

*In my view, the “garden” was Adam and Eve’s “place of probation”. *

Good point. And it was a place of trial, when and where a decision had to be made whether Adam & Eve would be worthy of staying in Eden or be driven out because they had chosen to disobey. Why God allows the children of Adam a chance still to be saved, and why He did not offer that same choice to Lucifer, is a mystery that we won’t be able to solve. As I suggested earlier, perhaps God knew immediately that the decision of Lucifer and his angels was a final one, and therefore there was no forgiving. For us it is not a final one until the hour of our death.
It seems to me its not as mysterious as you make it out to be. We get chance after chance because God love’s us and He wants us to love Him in return. It is only in this love will we find true happiness.
 
Detales

The Church, it seems to me, devotes itself to the propagation of an artificial way of keeping God at arms length by using an actual Teacher and his self appointed ad-man, Paul, as unwitting props in a power play. (see early Church history) The destruction is incalculable, but imaginary, as well, so ultimately it matters little if any. The story of the star fish on the beach applies here.

HUH? :confused:
 
Yes, Charlie, that is the response of “unexamined pious faith.” You might get your answer if you go back and re-read the post?

I repeat the story of my genius frind who wanted to join a discussion group. He was requested to read a short book so that he would be “on the same page” as everyone else. He “read” it and came back saying so. He was asked a few questons on the material and was instructed to read the book. To this day I have no clue why he persisted, but he did. He "read’ the book again, and–same story. He “read” the book 26 times before he came back with the admission that his habitual prejudice as to the book’s contents had prevented him from seeing the actual ideas and thesis of the book. He was happily recieved and welcomed, and made fruitful contributions to the dialogs.

I submit, again, that you and others on here are not going beyond a very superficial interpretation of what I am posting. Try again, or not. It doesn’t matter to me. But there is no need for a “HUH?,” excepting as a signpost to the next reading. Or not.

" The purpose of repetition is penetration."~ KG Mills
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top