V
Verisimilitude
Guest
Please do not perpetuate the lie Mohamed died as a martyr by being poisoned by the Jewish slave girl. That meal took place at least 3 years before Mohamed died. The rest of what you said I think is correct.
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H
hamba2han
Guest
Science is the study of the creations.
It naturally follows then that by examining and discovering the truth of the creations, this will ultimately lead one to the Truth of their Creator.
Science is therefore an excellent test to ascertain the numerous truths that are found in the Qur’an.
Read the whole of the thread which, in my previous post, I had posted the link to in order to learn more about these truths in the Qur’an.
A
AgnosTheist
Guest
This from Islamic Traditions:
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.713
Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 713:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
*Ibn 'Abbas replied, “That indicated the death of Allah’s Apostle which Allah informed him of.” 'Umar said, “I do not understand of it except what you understand.”
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, “O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison.” *
Now why do you think that it wasnt poison that killed mohammad?
A
AgnosTheist
Guest
The thread is closed. And it looks like your arguments were neatly refuted.
V
Valke2
Guest
which is a very strong argument for why Islam will not turn out to be the truth.
B
Booklover
Guest
See here.
"The life manual of Islam, the Quran, is a document of exclusion, hatred and violence that shapes the Muslims’ thinking and behaving. This stone-age document is optimally suited for people of stunted development. People who prefer to follow than to think for themselves, to hate than to love, and to seek death rather than to celebrate life.
and
An elaborate package of mostly illogical and bizarre prescriptions and proscriptions comes with the Islamic offer, covering every imaginable aspect of life. In the matter of being a good Muslim, nothing is left to chance that one needs to figure out for himself. “I think, therefore I am” said Rene Descartes in substantiating his claim to being a conscious being. “I don’t think, I faith; therefore I am an automaton,” says the Muslim in absolving himself of the need for independent thinking.
Even the minutest detail of the Muslim’s life is rigidly structured. He is to perform the obligatory prayer, for instance, five times a day at the exact appointed times. He must drop everything and go through the prescribed gesticulation and recitation of the verses while facing Mecca. Before saying his prayer, however, he must perform ablution. The Ablution, using water, must be carried out in a precise manner and sequence. In the absence of water, the faithful can substitute soil for water and go through the practice of “purifying” himself by running soil over his hands, arms, face and feet. After completion of ablution, as prescribed, he may proceed to say his prayer unless he commits flatulence. In that case, he must re-perform the ablution all over again."
Vickie
B
Booklover
Guest
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
Mainly becasue Mohamed said so, but also the fact that the meal in question was years before he died. He had other ailments not the least of which are understood as possible epileptic fits that his revelations came from. I would wager he died from pnemonia or some such cause a 60+ year old would be more suseptable to in the 7th century, than a slow acting poison he did not eat (he spit it out).
Only by that tradition does Mohamed become a martyr and that is another undesreved honor bestowed upon him. He was not a martyr, so his claim of being most like Jesus in this life and the next are once again refuted.
A
AgnosTheist
Guest
Its more likely a combination of ailment and poison. by the hadiths it is apparent that though he had spit out most of the poison, a little was enough to damage his system so that after that he consistently felt its effect until he died. so the poison weakened him but it was the pneumonia that finally did him in.
but youre right, its a bad idea making a martyr out of him. it wasnt my intention.
J
JimG
Guest
See, this is the part that worries me. You apparently think that we must all be subjected to Sharia law, and that is a dangerous idea.
Christian moral law is quite well developed and comprehensive. Yet we don’t impose it on our governments. Nor do we make dhimmis out of unbelievers.
I
inJESUS
Guest
know the truth, it shall set you free.
Know that the quran has gnostic teachings (the most obvious one is about the crucifixion), and has Christian legends that Muhammad thought were the literal word of God. Need i say more?
M
Montalban
Guest
Can’t wait
B
Booklover
Guest
No, God is not the author of confusion, the devil is, and he’s the one that makes people see evil as good and good as evil.
Vickie
J
JFonseka
Guest
Why is Islam wrong…
hmmm I’m sure people can come up with 1000’s of VALID reasons, but here are a few.
Their greatest prophet was: a sex offender
Hypocrite
Revenge seeker
They claim that Jesus was a great prophet they believe in but:
What Jesus preached was totally different to what Mohammed preached, one used non-violence and the other violence, I mean seriously, you can’t follow BOTH Jesus and Mohammed, even if you don’t believe in Jesus as God, they are two completely different people, like Gandhi and Saddam Hussein.
hmmm I’m sure people can come up with 1000’s of VALID reasons, but here are a few.
Their greatest prophet was: a sex offender
Hypocrite
Revenge seeker
They claim that Jesus was a great prophet they believe in but:
What Jesus preached was totally different to what Mohammed preached, one used non-violence and the other violence, I mean seriously, you can’t follow BOTH Jesus and Mohammed, even if you don’t believe in Jesus as God, they are two completely different people, like Gandhi and Saddam Hussein.
S
Sura10_Ayat94
Guest
MOHAMMAD DID WHAT…? (Violence recorded in the Hadith)
Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported that ***Allah’s Apostle ***(may peace be upon him) stoned (to death) a person from Banu Aslam, and a Jew and his wife. Book 017, Number 4216:
*“The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.” *Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515
Abd Allah ibn Sa’ed (Omr ibn al-Khatab servant) said: ***“Arab Christians are not Christians, I am not leaving them until they become Muslims or I cut their throats.” ***(Kanzu ‘umal – al mutka al hindi – vol. 4, No. 11770) Omar ibn al-Khatab (the second caliph)
"The prophet (Mohammad) cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of Uraina and did not cauterize (their bleeding limbs) till they died". Sahih Al- Bukhair, Vol 8, Book 82, Hadith 795.
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah’s Apostle said, ***“Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” ***Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “***Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab).” The Prophet said, “You may say it.” ***(Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369)
Sira, p463-4: Then they {the tribe of Quraiza} surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of Bani al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina and dug trenches in it. ***Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy bin Akhtab and Kab bin Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. *** This went on until the Apostle made an end of them.
A series of letters Muhammad wrote to the rulers of the nations surrounding Arabia, calling them to his new faith. His letter to Heraclius, the Eastern Roman Emperor in Constantinople, is typical of this threat: ***“Now then, I invite you to Islam (i.e. surrender to Allah), embrace Islam and you will be safe: embrace Islam and Allah will bestow on you a double reward. But if you reject this invitation of Islam, you shall be responsible for misguiding the peasants (i.e. your nation).” ***(Mohammad Ibn Ismaiel al-Bukhari: The Translation of the meanings, vol.4 book 56, no. 2941, translated M.Khan (1997) –source ‘Religion of Peace by Robert Spencer (2007)
Example: Narrated Anas bin Malik: A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Provide us with some milk.” Allah’s Apostle said, “I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.” ***So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd *and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). ***They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died ***(Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, “They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.”) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261)
Another Hadith also a chilling note: “when judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim, a Jew or Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire.” (Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol. 2, no.5552) (reference form ‘Inside Islam’ Pg. 120)
’If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’" Sahih Al-Bukhari: Vol 4, Book 52, No 260
Great exemplar to the world as an ‘alleged’ last prophet for mankind! ***
DID JESUS COMMAND or COMMITT ANY OF THIS**. yet what is critically important is that according to Allah himself (speaking through Muhammad via the Qur’an) Muhammad is the most “beautiful pattern of conduct” and “example” for mankind to follow (Qur’an 33:21)*
Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported that ***Allah’s Apostle ***(may peace be upon him) stoned (to death) a person from Banu Aslam, and a Jew and his wife. Book 017, Number 4216:
*“The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.” *Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515
Abd Allah ibn Sa’ed (Omr ibn al-Khatab servant) said: ***“Arab Christians are not Christians, I am not leaving them until they become Muslims or I cut their throats.” ***(Kanzu ‘umal – al mutka al hindi – vol. 4, No. 11770) Omar ibn al-Khatab (the second caliph)
"The prophet (Mohammad) cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of Uraina and did not cauterize (their bleeding limbs) till they died". Sahih Al- Bukhair, Vol 8, Book 82, Hadith 795.
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah’s Apostle said, ***“Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” ***Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “***Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab).” The Prophet said, “You may say it.” ***(Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369)
Sira, p463-4: Then they {the tribe of Quraiza} surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of Bani al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina and dug trenches in it. ***Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy bin Akhtab and Kab bin Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. *** This went on until the Apostle made an end of them.
A series of letters Muhammad wrote to the rulers of the nations surrounding Arabia, calling them to his new faith. His letter to Heraclius, the Eastern Roman Emperor in Constantinople, is typical of this threat: ***“Now then, I invite you to Islam (i.e. surrender to Allah), embrace Islam and you will be safe: embrace Islam and Allah will bestow on you a double reward. But if you reject this invitation of Islam, you shall be responsible for misguiding the peasants (i.e. your nation).” ***(Mohammad Ibn Ismaiel al-Bukhari: The Translation of the meanings, vol.4 book 56, no. 2941, translated M.Khan (1997) –source ‘Religion of Peace by Robert Spencer (2007)
Example: Narrated Anas bin Malik: A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Provide us with some milk.” Allah’s Apostle said, “I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.” ***So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd *and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). ***They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died ***(Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, “They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.”) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261)
Another Hadith also a chilling note: “when judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim, a Jew or Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire.” (Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol. 2, no.5552) (reference form ‘Inside Islam’ Pg. 120)
’If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’" Sahih Al-Bukhari: Vol 4, Book 52, No 260
Great exemplar to the world as an ‘alleged’ last prophet for mankind! ***
DID JESUS COMMAND or COMMITT ANY OF THIS**. yet what is critically important is that according to Allah himself (speaking through Muhammad via the Qur’an) Muhammad is the most “beautiful pattern of conduct” and “example” for mankind to follow (Qur’an 33:21)*
O
OneAugustKnight
Guest
The most glaring reason to me is this:
According to Islamic belief, God played a trick on people and made it look like Jesus was crucified, but didn’t actually allow it to happen.
Now how can God be the Truth in a philosophy which asserts He told what would amount to the biggest lie in the history of the world?
It cannot be. God is not a deceiver, He does not play tricks on us.
According to Islamic belief, God played a trick on people and made it look like Jesus was crucified, but didn’t actually allow it to happen.
Now how can God be the Truth in a philosophy which asserts He told what would amount to the biggest lie in the history of the world?
It cannot be. God is not a deceiver, He does not play tricks on us.
S
Sura10_Ayat94
Guest
An egregious historical error in Islam is the deny of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ (Sura 4: 157, 158) the Koran says that “and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. (4.157) he died; some say it was actually Judas on the cross, made to look like Jesus by Allah (this notion of Judas’s been crucified comes from the 15th century - fraud gospel of Barnabas). The Crucifixion is an event which is well-documented in ancient non-Christian historical sources. Christians do not even need to cite Biblical sources to prove the crucifixion of Jesus occurred. Secular sources include as mentioned on the following page:
IMPORTANT FACT:
The Qur’an affirms that the Bible is the preserved Word of God. (Sura 29:46, 57:26-27, 4:135)
The Bible affirms Jesus’ crucifixion.
History affirms Jesus’ crucifixion.
The Qur’an denies the crucifixion.
Therefore, the Qur’an is in error since it affirms the preservation and authority of the Bible while denying one of its essential teachings.
Jesus’ Death and Resurrection: The Bible declares that Jesus died and rose from the dead. Even Jesus declared this before and after his resurrection: Mark 9:31, Luke 24:46
The Crucifixion of the Christ (non-Christian sources)
First, the “letter of Mara Bar-Serapion” (c. 73 AD), housed in the British Museum, asks of Jesus’ crucifixion: "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King?“
Second, the third-century Julius Africanus (c. 221 AD) reports that the first-century historian Thallus says that "when discussing the darkness which fell upon the land during the crucifixion of Christ," it was an eclipse.
Third, the Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (c. 55-117 AD) wrote: "a wise man who was called Jesus . . . Pilate condemned him to be condemned and to die." Tacitus also notes that the disciples of Jesus ***“reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive.” ***Tacitus, in Book XV of his chronicle The Annals of Imperial Rome; in Book XV, 44 of his chronicle ‘The Annals of Imperial Rome’, says that “Christ was put to death by Pontius Pilate, the procurator of Judaea, in the reign of Tiberius”.
Fourth, Josephus (c. 37-100 AD) the Jewish historian wrote: "Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him [Jesus] to the cross” (18.3). Josephus Flavius was a great Jewish historian, in his Jewish Antiquities. And the History of the Jewish War, written at the request of the Roman Emperor Titus.
Fifth, the second-century Greek satirist Lucian (born c. 120), who travelled widely in the eastern Mediterranean world where Israel is located, in his On the Death of Peregrine, speaks of Christ "[A]s the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced a new cult into the world," also calling him a "crucified sophist.“
Sixth, the Roman author Phlegon, freedman of the Emperor Hadrian (who reigned 117-38 AD) never doubted that Jesus was crucified: "Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.”
Seventh, even the Talmud does not deny the death of Jesus (his divinity is another matter): "on the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth)" . . . (Sanhedrin 43a, “Eve of Passover”).
Eight, Suetonius’ Life of the Emperor Claudius; Pliny, the governor of the Province of Bithynia-Pontus, in book ten of his Epistles.
Therefore, in light of all this extra-Biblical evidence-quite apart from its theological interpretation-the historical fact of the crucifixion is verified, and the much-later Qur’an, to speak plainly, is wrong on this matter. This should surprise no one, for Muhammad never conducted historical research. Therefore, the first absolutist syllogism collapses under the weight of historical facts.
IMPORTANT FACT:
The Qur’an affirms that the Bible is the preserved Word of God. (Sura 29:46, 57:26-27, 4:135)
The Bible affirms Jesus’ crucifixion.
History affirms Jesus’ crucifixion.
The Qur’an denies the crucifixion.
Therefore, the Qur’an is in error since it affirms the preservation and authority of the Bible while denying one of its essential teachings.
Jesus’ Death and Resurrection: The Bible declares that Jesus died and rose from the dead. Even Jesus declared this before and after his resurrection: Mark 9:31, Luke 24:46
The Crucifixion of the Christ (non-Christian sources)
First, the “letter of Mara Bar-Serapion” (c. 73 AD), housed in the British Museum, asks of Jesus’ crucifixion: "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King?“
Second, the third-century Julius Africanus (c. 221 AD) reports that the first-century historian Thallus says that "when discussing the darkness which fell upon the land during the crucifixion of Christ," it was an eclipse.
Third, the Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (c. 55-117 AD) wrote: "a wise man who was called Jesus . . . Pilate condemned him to be condemned and to die." Tacitus also notes that the disciples of Jesus ***“reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive.” ***Tacitus, in Book XV of his chronicle The Annals of Imperial Rome; in Book XV, 44 of his chronicle ‘The Annals of Imperial Rome’, says that “Christ was put to death by Pontius Pilate, the procurator of Judaea, in the reign of Tiberius”.
Fourth, Josephus (c. 37-100 AD) the Jewish historian wrote: "Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him [Jesus] to the cross” (18.3). Josephus Flavius was a great Jewish historian, in his Jewish Antiquities. And the History of the Jewish War, written at the request of the Roman Emperor Titus.
Fifth, the second-century Greek satirist Lucian (born c. 120), who travelled widely in the eastern Mediterranean world where Israel is located, in his On the Death of Peregrine, speaks of Christ "[A]s the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced a new cult into the world," also calling him a "crucified sophist.“
Sixth, the Roman author Phlegon, freedman of the Emperor Hadrian (who reigned 117-38 AD) never doubted that Jesus was crucified: "Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.”
Seventh, even the Talmud does not deny the death of Jesus (his divinity is another matter): "on the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth)" . . . (Sanhedrin 43a, “Eve of Passover”).
Eight, Suetonius’ Life of the Emperor Claudius; Pliny, the governor of the Province of Bithynia-Pontus, in book ten of his Epistles.
Therefore, in light of all this extra-Biblical evidence-quite apart from its theological interpretation-the historical fact of the crucifixion is verified, and the much-later Qur’an, to speak plainly, is wrong on this matter. This should surprise no one, for Muhammad never conducted historical research. Therefore, the first absolutist syllogism collapses under the weight of historical facts.
M
Montalban
Guest
That’s al-Lah for you. Moslems, even those that follow his words to the letter aren’t sure that their god will look after them in the end. Their god sounds quite fickle.
H
hamba2han
Guest
Let us try to analyze this matter as objectively as possible.
Standing aside and allowing one’s own completely innocent son to be tortured and killed in a most horrifying manner just so that the sins of the guilty can be atoned is considered good.
On the other hand, performing an illusion in order to fool the people who wanted to crucify him and thereby save the life of that son is considered bad.
Is this the correct Christian perspective on what makes a good or bad “Father” to his “only begotten Son”?
M
Montalban
Guest
So you’re against self-sacrifice.
I take it then you’re against helping anyone, if it’s going to be too painful for you:thumbsup:As for ‘performing an illuision’, that’s called deceit.
- Status