Why is Islam wrong?

[Valke2]

From a muslim perspective, it sounds as if they would be against needless self sacrifice. God told Jonah to warn the people of His impending wrath and then He withheld his wrath. Does this make Him a liar? Is it wrong to believe God would change His mind in a way that spares life?

 

[hamba2han]

God would change His mind in a way that spares life?

God most definitely did not change His mind with regard to the alleged crucifixion of Jesus (pbuh) because he was NEVER meant to be a sacrifice to atone for the sins of humankind.

For those who may be wondering and questioning God’s sense of justice when dealing with the people who lived between the time of Jesus (pbuh) and the arrival some 600 years later of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and who died in a state of disbelief to the true message that Jesus (pbuh) brought, there is indeed a special test for them on the Day of Resurrection.

If they pass this test, they will enter Paradise but if they fail, they will enter the Hellfire and therefore they will be given an equal opportunity as the rest of humanity in choosing whether or not to fully submit to the will of their Creator and thereby earn their place in Paradise.

Unfortunately, the rest of us today who did not live during this 600-year period before the coming of Islam will not be given this special dispensation to be tested differently because most of us have already heard and received the message of Islam and therefore we really need not be concerned about the eventual fate of the people who actually lived and died during this period but instead we should be worrying about our own fate on the Day of Judgment when we also will be judged by our Creator.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I have a bit of a funny personality, not haha funny, but I’ll explain. Sometimes I get strange thoughts in my head, and it actually has to do with I believe, symptoms of my OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder), and ofter my symptoms manifest themselves as thoughts. For example, I dont want to think a certain thought, but then I struggle against it, and I have a great fear of thinking something. It especially pains me when this thought is contrary to my faith, etc.

Anyway, sometimes these thoughts creep into other religions, even religions I hardly know anything about, and it’s almost like I’m daring myself to think of something that is wrong or bad.

I really want to be a strong Catholic, but then I get these thoughts. Anyway, for whatever reason, I thought about Islam last night, I dont know why, but it bothered me… I just want reassurance from this group, and I want to know why we should not believe in Islam.

phil8888, I wont get philisophical with you, but as a Catholic to a Catholic, Please read all of this 1John 3:19-4:1-6. I will just Quote VERSE 4:1-4 BELOVED, DO NOT TRUST EVERY SPIRIT BUT TEST THE SPIRITS TO SEE WHETHER THEY BELONG TO GOD, BECAUSE MANY FALSE PROPHETS HAVE GONE OUT INTO THE WORLD.THIS IS HOW YOU CAN KNOW THE SPIRIT OF GOD: EVERY SPIRIT THAT ACKOWLEDGES JESUS CHRIST COME IN THE FLESH BELONGS TO GOD, AND EVERY SPIRIT THAT DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS DOES NOT BELONG TO GOD. THIS IS THE SPIRIT OF THE ANTICHRIST THAT, AS YOU HEARD, IS TO COME, BUT IN FACT IS ALREADY IN THE WORLD. YOU BELONG TO GOD, CHILDREN, AND YOU HAVE CONQUERED THEM, FOR THE ONE WHO IS IN YOU IS GREATER THAN THE ONE IN THE WORLD…VERESE 6: WE BELONG TO GOD, AND ANYONE WHO KNOWS GOD LISTENS TO US, WHILE ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BELONG TO GOD REFUSES TO HEAR US. THIS IS HOW WE KNOW THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE SPIRIT OF DECIET.
I too have looked into Islam. I found Muhammed to be a hero, who did a good deed for God. He was a learned man of Jewish and Chrisian faiths, combined the two theologies and simplified it for the Arabs. To me he was a hero because he rid the Arabs of their historical IDOLATRY WAYS from Bedouin idolatry, and introduced to the Arabs the Jewish and Christian God of monotheism. I dont agree with his barbaric way of ridding idolatry from his people but I do see him from this perspective a God hero. Now the Islam religion is the youngest of the 3, and has gone through some changes. We can learn from their strong faith in God, but Islam has no single authority here on earth to direct and mature the faith in her people, Thus we will always have wars and rumors of wars. This is just my opinion from what I got out of researching Islam, and believe me I gave it a fair shake.
your brother in Jesus Christ.

 

[andzy]

He was a learned man of Jewish and Christian faiths, combined the two theologies and simplified it for the Arabs.

I find it hard to agree with you. It seems like Mohamed was not so well versed in Jewish and Christian faiths, as several key things what he said about them are contradicting what Jews and Christians really believe (the importance of Isaac vs. Ishmael, the mission of Christ, the nature of the Holy Trinity, etc.).
Also, he didn’t “combine and simplify these two theologies”, but created his own religion (similarly to what Protestants did with Catholicism and what Joseph Smith did with Christianity).

 

[Montalban]

God most definitely did not change His mind with regard to the alleged crucifixion of Jesus because he was NEVER meant to be a sacrifice to atone for the sins of humankind.

So you don’t believe in self-sacrifice?

 

[hamba2han]

So you don’t believe in self-sacrifice?

I do not understand what you are getting at here as Jesus (pbuh) certainly did NOT offer up himself as a blood sacrifice to atone for anyone’s sins.

Is it wrong to believe God would change His mind in a way that spares life?

Just to elaborate on this point a bit.

It is indeed wrong and sinful to believe that God will ever change His mind about anything at all because being fickle-minded is a sign of weakness and shows uncertainty about future events and God is neither weak nor is He uncertain about things that will happen in the future by any measure.

 

[andzy]

Jesus (pbuh) certainly did NOT offer up himself as a blood sacrifice to atone for anyone’s sins.

Could you give some basis for this statement?

 

[Deconi]

I do not understand what you are getting at here as Jesus (pbuh) certainly did NOT offer up himself as a blood sacrifice to atone for anyone’s sins.

Then perhaps we should still be offering some kind of blood sacrificial lamb / goat as decreed by God to Moses and all the cities / towns of the entire world of believers should have an altar for these ceremonies!?!

It is indeed wrong and sinful to believe that God will ever change His mind about anything at all because being fickle-minded is a sign of weakness and shows uncertainty about future events and God is neither weak nor is He uncertain about things that will happen in the future by any measure.

Personal opinion here and you’ve neatly “dragged” The Almighty down to behave like a human. Perhaps the 3 religions who claim to follow Him should stop bothering Him with whorship and prayers then since there is no point in pleading with Him!!?

 

[Verisimilitude]

Could you give some basis for this statement?

Mohamed said so. Thats it.

 

[hamba2han]

Could you give some basis for this statement?

We need to examine the words of Jesus (pbuh) as recorded in the Bible.

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honor thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me."
Matthew 19:16-21.

Jesus (pbuh) refutes that he is even “good.” This is a characteristic of a MAN. When you compliment a man, and this man is humble, he will say: “why are you complimenting me? I am not so good, I am just a humble man.” This is how good and decent men speak. It is how they display humility before God. However, if Jesus (pbuh) is God then he must claim to be good. This is because God is the source of ultimate good. If God claims not to be good then he will be a hypocrite and a liar which is impossible.

Jesus then goes on to completely bypass any mention of an original sin or an atonement. He does not tell this man that “a man is not justified by the works of the law … for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified…” Rather, he tells him that the keeping of the commandments and the selling of one’s belongings is the path to perfection. No mention of an original sin. No mention of an atonement. No mention of a crucifixion. No mention of faith without work. All of these beliefs were the beliefs of Paul and not Jesus.

Paul, a disciple of Jesus’ disciple Barnabas, is quoted to have said that the law of Moses is worthless. Belief in the crucifixion is the only requirement

In stark comparison, Jesus (pbuh) himself never said “Believe in my sacrifice on the cross and you will be saved.” He didn’t tell this young man “You are filthy wicked and sinful and can never enter heaven except through my redeeming blood and your belief in my sacrifice.” He simply said repeatedly “keep the commandments” and nothing more. If Jesus (pbuh) was being prepared and conditioned for this sacrifice from the beginning of time, then why did he not mention it to this man? Even when this man pressed him for more, Jesus only told him that to be “PERFECT” he only needs to sell his belongings. He made no mention whatsoever of his crucifixion, an original sin, or a redemption.

If Jesus’ (pbuh) whole mission in life was to die on the cross in atonement for the “sin of Adam,” and if this was the founding reason why he was sent, would we not be justified in expecting him to spend night and day drumming this into the minds of his followers? Should we not expect him to speak of nothing else? Should we not expect him to spend night and day preaching that the commandments shall soon be thrown out the window (Galatians 3:13) and faith in his upcoming crucifixion shall be the only thing required of them? (Romans 3:28). Should we not expect Jesus (pbuh) to echo the teachings of Paul who never in his life met Jesus but claims Jesus (pbuh) was preaching these things to him in “visions”? Should we not expect Jesus (pbuh) to tell everyone he meets “The commandments are worthless. I shall be dying on the cross soon. Believe in my sacrifice and you shall be saved”? Is this not dictated by plain simple logic? Can we find such an explicit statement from Jesus anywhere in the whole Bible?

The above is an excerpt (with slight modifications) from this webpage.

 

[Verisimilitude]

We need to examine the words of Jesus (pbuh) as recorded in the Bible.
Matthew 19:16-21.

Jesus (pbuh) refutes that he is even “good.” This is a characteristic of a MAN.

Wrong. The man who called Jesus “Good Master” recognized Him, just as others including the demons who recognized Him as God. Christ did not refute being called good, but rhetorically asks the man how he determined it since only God is Good.

If you are going to examine the words of Christ, even though y9ou reject them, at least try to understand them better.

When you compliment a man, and this man is humble, he will say: “why are you complimenting me? I am not so good, I am just a humble man.”

Then why does Mohamed compliment himself- often?
Verily, among mankind who have the best claim to Ibrahim (Abraham) are those who followed him, and this Prophet (Muhammad SAW) and those who have believed (Muslims). And Allah is the Walee (Protector and Helper) of the believers.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #68)

All of these beliefs were the beliefs of Paul and not Jesus.

Not true.

In stark comparison, Jesus (pbuh) himself never said “Believe in my sacrifice on the cross and you will be saved.”

Matthew 16:24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

He didn’t tell this young man “You are filthy wicked and sinful and can never enter heaven except through my redeeming blood and your belief in my sacrifice.”

The young man said he had kept those commandments didn’t he?

Matthew 9:12On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Should we not expect Jesus (pbuh) to tell everyone he meets “The commandments are worthless. I shall be dying on the cross soon. Believe in my sacrifice and you shall be saved”? Is this not dictated by plain simple logic? Can we find such an explicit statement from Jesus anywhere in the whole Bible?

He lived and loved by example.

Matthew 5:16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

 

[andzy]

Mark 8:35-36:

He summoned the crowd with his disciples and said 8 to them, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it.

Should I say what “picking up one’s cross” meant in Roman times, where the cross was a certain death?
John 8:58-59:

Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.” So they picked up stones to throw at him.

Should I say what “I AM” meant for Jews and why they wanted to stone Jesus?

Etc., etc. (e.g., “Me and the Father are One”).
Not to mention quite detailed accounts of crucification and resurrection.
I believe that Islam teaches to believe what the Bible says? The trouble is that there is no way one could twist the Bible that Christ wasn’t crucified. Even if you say that it only seemed so, that is certainly not what the Bible testifies - only Muslims and theologically confused Gnostics/Arianists would claim something like that.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

I have another reason why Islam is wrong. The Qu’ran is supposed to be the inerrant word of God with no intermediates, but it mistakenly refers to Mary as the Third Person in the Holy Trinity. God would know that the Third Person in the Trinity is Holy Spirit, and He would know most all Christians believe this.

If something comes straight from God with no interpretation, it would be impossible for it to be wrong. And this isn’t just wrong, it’s so obviously and completely totally wrong that it doesn’t make sense that anyone would believe God would say that.

 

[hamba2han]

Not to mention quite detailed accounts of crucification and resurrection.
I believe that Islam teaches to believe what the Bible says? The trouble is that there is no way one could twist the Bible that Christ wasn’t crucified. Even if you say that it only seemed so, that is certainly not what the Bible testifies - only Muslims and theologically confused Gnostics/Arianists would claim something like that.

Since the crucifixion and resurrection is so extremely central to Christian belief, then why is it that it is not prophesied even once in the Old Testament?

It is not Muslims who are confused about their faith… and always remember that God is not the author of confusion.

 

[dolphinlove]

Since the crucifixion and resurrection is so extremely central to Christian belief, then why is it that it is not prophesied even once in the Old Testament?

It is not Muslims who are confused about their faith… and always remember that God is not the author of confusion.

Well us catholics are not confused about our faith either…

Isaiah 52:13

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant. See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. Just as there were many who were appalled at him - his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness- so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.

Isaiah 53:4

Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his escendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Psalm 22:1

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Psalm 22:14-18

I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death. they have pierced my hands and my feetDogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, **they have pierced my hands and my feet. **

Need I go on with more?

 

[andzy]

Since the crucifixion and resurrection is so extremely central to Christian belief, then why is it that it is not prophesied even once in the Old Testament?
It is not Muslims who are confused about their faith… and always remember that God is not the author of confusion.

Indeed, Catholics aren’t confused about their faith (if they follow it, of course). In fact, there are prophecies in the Old Testament, as Dolphinlove mentioned a few. However, nowhere do I see prophesies that a new prophet will rise to whom God will say that both the Jewish and Christian faiths are basically false and a new religion needs to be established.
Anyway, can you answer my question:

I believe that Islam teaches to believe what the Bible says? The trouble is that there is no way one could twist the Bible that Christ wasn’t crucified. Even if you say that it only seemed so, that is certainly not what the Bible testifies

How can you explain that?
P.S. My “theologically confused” phrase wasn’t addressed to Muslims, but to Gnostics and Arianists who couldn’t logically/theologically understand/accept how God could be a man and die on a cross for us.

 

[hamba2han]

Well us catholics are not confused about our faith either…

Isaiah 52:13

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant. See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. Just as there were many who were appalled at him - his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness- so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.

Isaiah 53:4

Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his escendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

In Isaiah 53, all it says is that he will get pierced which again it never mentioned the cross nor did it ever mention any sort of resurrection, not just in this chapter, but also throughout the Old Testament. If this servant is indeed Jesus peace be upon him, then him being pierced and never dying seems to perfectly support the Islamic teaching about Prophet Jesus peace be upon him NEVER died on the cross for anyone’s sins.

Also notice that Isaiah 53:11 clearly states that “he will see the light”. What is that light? Could it be the light of Heaven? Probably be raised to Heaven? Christians do believe that Jesus peace be upon him was indeed raised to Heaven, and so do Muslims too. However, we see no mention throughout the ENTIRE Old Testament including obviously Isaiah 53 any mention of resurrection, nor any mention for resurrection on the 3rd day or any day. So does this mean that the servant will get pierced (by being put on the cross perhaps) and then get raised without dying?

Let us look at the following Noble Verse from the Noble Quran: "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): ‘We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.’ But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

Now compare the Noble Verses to Isaiah 52:13 “…he will be raised and lifted up…”. Notice that Isaiah 52:13 did not say “…he will be RESURRECTED and lifted up…” Not even once, did the Old Testament predict for the foretold Servant (Jesus) to be raised to GOD Almighty after death. There absolutely no mention of any sort of resurrection in the Bible’s Old Testament what so ever.

The above is an excerpt from this webpage.

 

[Booklover]

In Isaiah 53, all it says is that he will get pierced which again it never mentioned the cross nor did it ever mention any sort of resurrection, not just in this chapter, but also throughout the Old Testament. If this servant is indeed Jesus peace be upon him, then him being pierced and never dying seems to perfectly support the Islamic teaching about Prophet Jesus peace be upon him NEVER died on the cross for anyone’s sins.

Also notice that Isaiah 53:11 clearly states that “he will see the light”. What is that light? Could it be the light of Heaven? Probably be raised to Heaven? Christians do believe that Jesus peace be upon him was indeed raised to Heaven, and so do Muslims too. However, we see no mention throughout the ENTIRE Old Testament including obviously Isaiah 53 any mention of resurrection, nor any mention for resurrection on the 3rd day or any day. So does this mean that the servant will get pierced (by being put on the cross perhaps) and then get raised without dying?

Let us look at the following Noble Verse from the Noble Quran: "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): ‘We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.’ But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

Now compare the Noble Verses to Isaiah 52:13 “…he will be raised and lifted up…”. Notice that Isaiah 52:13 did not say “…he will be RESURRECTED and lifted up…” Not even once, did the Old Testament predict for the foretold Servant (Jesus) to be raised to GOD Almighty after death. There absolutely no mention of any sort of resurrection in the Bible’s Old Testament what so ever.

The above is an excerpt from this webpage.

The cross is raised and lifted up in the vertical position.

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

In Isaiah 53, all it says is that he will get pierced which again it never mentioned the cross nor did it ever mention any sort of resurrection, not just in this chapter, but also throughout the Old Testament. If this servant is indeed Jesus peace be upon him, then him being pierced and never dying seems to perfectly support the Islamic teaching about Prophet Jesus peace be upon him NEVER died on the cross for anyone’s sins.

Also notice that Isaiah 53:11 clearly states that “he will see the light”. What is that light? Could it be the light of Heaven? Probably be raised to Heaven? Christians do believe that Jesus peace be upon him was indeed raised to Heaven, and so do Muslims too. However, we see no mention throughout the ENTIRE Old Testament including obviously Isaiah 53 any mention of resurrection, nor any mention for resurrection on the 3rd day or any day. So does this mean that the servant will get pierced (by being put on the cross perhaps) and then get raised without dying?

Let us look at the following Noble Verse from the Noble Quran: "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): ‘We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.’ But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

Now compare the Noble Verses to Isaiah 52:13 “…he will be raised and lifted up…”. Notice that Isaiah 52:13 did not say “…he will be RESURRECTED and lifted up…” Not even once, did the Old Testament predict for the foretold Servant (Jesus) to be raised to GOD Almighty after death. There absolutely no mention of any sort of resurrection in the Bible’s Old Testament what so ever.

The above is an excerpt from this webpage.

It’s amazing how that website keeps talking of forgeries in the Bible and the only proof that Muslims have that the Quran is the word of God is" Muhammad said so!"

 

[Booklover]

Since the crucifixion and resurrection is so extremely central to Christian belief, then why is it that it is not prophesied even once in the Old Testament?

It is not Muslims who are confused about their faith… and always remember that God is not the author of confusion.

Satan is the author of confusion and no matter how many times we point out the vile deeds committed by Muhammad or for him, you continue to see him as the perfect model for all mankind and the best man that ever lived! Does that make sense?

Vickie