Why is it better to be Catholic?

[daveturner]

Totally agree with all six points. I am also starting my journey into the Catholic Church after more than 30 years in the Church of England. I found there to be too many different interpretations of Scripture and tradition in the Anglican church, it was thoroughly confusing for me.

 

[nogames]

The reason why I think it’s best to be Catholic, is because the church, as Saint Paul says: in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

I would NOT choose an ideology that says Christ didn’t make a Church that is supposed to help watch over the faithful. There is but one Church. Is the Church not the bride (singular) of Christ?

Ephesians 5:25-27

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

There is no problem in stressing the importance of unity in the Church. Though some would rather overlook the call to be one body in Christ.

I agree with you on the importance of unity in the church. I just disagree about what form this unity ought to take. I also agree that there is one church. I disagree with Catholics on the form that the church takes as well.

 

[steve-b]

Hi steve-b, I have no certainty or proof of anything. You are searching for proofs to support what you have already chosen to believe. You have probably become very skilled at asking just the right questions to those who disagree with you. When your opponent cannot provide an answer that is sufficiently convincing to you, it will be taken as evidence for their error.

[snip for space]

Jesus gave us His Church that He said He will build on Peter and those in union with Peter. The “pillar and foundation of truth”. And “not even the gates of hell will prevail against it”. Jesus wants perfect unity in His Church. As in zero division is permitted. Said simply. AFTER one is given the knowledge of truth, and they refuse to either enter or remain in the Catholic Church, they won’t be saved.

You ask, where did that come from? Allow me to explain

Acts 9:31 From the Greek Study Bible Ἡ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς
Translation: ἐκκλησία = church,
καθ’ = according to,
ὅλης = whole, entire, universal,
τῆς = the,
= the Kataholos Church = the Catholic Church.

Before we had a NT,

Bishop Ignatius of Antioch, ordained by the apostles, made bishop of Antioch in ~69 a.d. That is before the book of Acts just quoted was written. He was also a direct disciple of St John the apostle. Ignatius wrote 6 letters to the Church in 6 locations. In his writings, he calls the “Church” he’s writing to the Catholic Church.
St Ignatius, uses Christian in (ch 2) and Catholic Church in (ch 8) in his Epistle to the Smyrnæans Also note: He writes, schismatics won’t be going to heaven, in his Epistle to the Philadelphians ch 3
Ignatius is passing on what he learned from the apostles.

a Protestant will ask, what apostle wrote about such consequences?

It was Paul who wrote about it but it was the teaching of all.

Romans and Galatians both use the same Greek word διχοστασίαι, for dissension / division /schism And the consequence for that sin if one won’t return to the Catholic Church? Paul says “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”. IOW they go to hell when they die

Where would Paul get that warning from? The HS which ultimately comes from Jesus
That condemnation for division came from Jesus who condemns division from His Church Jn 17 , and since the HS only teaches what comes from Jesus no one then can say anytime in history, the HS inspired THEM to divide from, or inspired all the dissensions / divisions / schisms we see see today in Christianity, to divide from the Catholic Church.

 

[nogames]

Jesus wants perfect unity in His Church. As in zero division is permitted. Said simply. AFTER one is given the knowledge of truth, and they refuse to either enter or remain in the Catholic Church, they won’t be saved.

It was Paul who wrote about it but it was the teaching of all.

Romans and Galatians both use the same Greek word διχοστασίαι, for dissension / division /schism And the consequence for that sin if one won’t return to the Catholic Church? Paul says “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”. IOW they go to hell when they die

Where would Paul get that warning from? The HS which ultimately comes from Jesus
That condemnation for division came from Jesus who condemns division from His Church Jn 17 , and since the HS only teaches what comes from Jesus no one then can say anytime in history, the HS inspired THEM to divide from, or inspired all the dissensions / divisions / schisms we see see today in Christianity, to divide from the Catholic Church.

Perfect unity in what sense? On all doctrinal issues? On all moral issues? What specific form(s) in your opinion, does division take?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Jesus wants perfect unity in His Church. As in zero division is permitted. Said simply. AFTER one is given the knowledge of truth, and they refuse to either enter or remain in the Catholic Church, they won’t be saved.

It was Paul who wrote about it but it was the teaching of all.

Romans and Galatians both use the same Greek word διχοστασίαι, for dissension / division /schism And the consequence for that sin if one won’t return to the Catholic Church? Paul says “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”. IOW they go to hell when they die

Where would Paul get that warning from? The HS which ultimately comes from Jesus
That condemnation for division came from Jesus who condemns division from His Church Jn 17 , and since the HS only teaches what comes from Jesus no one then can say anytime in history, the HS inspired THEM to divide from, or inspired all the dissensions / divisions / schisms we see see today in Christianity, to divide from the Catholic Church.

Perfect unity in what sense? On all doctrinal issues? On all moral issues? What specific form(s) in your opinion, does division take?

It would help if you open and read the links given. Then let’s talk

 

[GLam1761]

The devil is pitted w/ THE WOMAN in Gen. 3:15
Rev. 12:15 and HER SEED, those who profess
Faith in the Son of Man. Ibid.
He is AGAINST Mary, the Church, the Cross, the
Eucharist.
Only Humility, Mercy and the Redeemed humanity
will conquer the kingdom of darkness.

 

[nogames]

Jesus wants perfect unity in His Church. As in zero division is permitted. Said simply. AFTER one is given the knowledge of truth, and they refuse to either enter or remain in the Catholic Church, they won’t be saved.

It was Paul who wrote about it but it was the teaching of all.

Hi steve-b, I looked through the links that you provided. I can’t find anything from Scripture that tells us that after one is given the knowledge of truth, and they refuse to either enter or remain in the Catholic Church, they won’t be saved.

Let’s just say, for the sake of your argument, that the bible DOES tell us that being Catholic is a requirement for salvation.

How “Catholic” is a person required to be…in order to be saved? Is it necessary for each person to be 100 percent Catholic in every respect? What if you think that you are 100 percent Catholic but there are a few details on a few issues of Catholic doctrine that you don’t understand as well as you think you do?

 

[lordie]

we all walk different paths in life ,some believe catholics are the best religion ,others believe its protestant ,its all what’s in your heart and what you believe is true , you walk your own path , no one can tell you which road to take ,only your heart can .
sometimes it does help to talk to others and sometimes it don’t help at all , it all depends on the path you take , remember which ever path you take ,is your path . you don’t walk it alone many has started your path and quit ,before you came and you keep going which shows you are strong

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Jesus wants perfect unity in His Church. As in zero division is permitted. Said simply. AFTER one is given the knowledge of truth, and they refuse to either enter or remain in the Catholic Church, they won’t be saved.

It was Paul who wrote about it but it was the teaching of all.

Hi steve-b, I looked through the links that you provided. I can’t find anything from Scripture that tells us that after one is given the knowledge of truth, and they refuse to either enter or remain in the Catholic Church, they won’t be saved.

Are you sure? The links don’t show they’ve been opened.

That said

Depending on the scripture translation you use, I’m using the Greek translation .

Romans 16:17 and Galatians 5: 20 both use the same Greek word for division, dissension

Definition: division, dissension, standing apart. divisions which wrongly separate people into pointless (groundless) factions.

what’s the warning and the consequence ?

"I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God". [Gal 5:20]

That’s knowledge. Paul has warned the Galatians twice. They who are guilty know they are guilty. They can’t claim ignorance. They can’t claim they weren’t warned. Warnings don’t go on forever. Paul won’t warn them again. Twice is enough. So those not taking the warning, and remaining in division, go to hell when they die. ALL those sins mentioned will send one to hell if they die in them. I’m just picking one of the sins mentioned (division/ factions) for example.

There is only one Church that Jesus established on Peter and those in union with Peter. The Catholic Church. I’ve shown you the evidence for that previously. Only one Church on the planet qualifies for that description. It’s been that way for 2000 yrs. Therefore Outside of this Church, you see what happens. Again, that’s NOT from me it’s from Paul, who received that knowledge from Jesus through the Holy Spirit to pass onto the Galatians and everyone else reading or being shown those passages and warnings… they eliminate one from heaven…

That’s where the following phrase comes from

AFTER one is given the knowledge of truth, and they refuse to either enter or remain in the Catholic Church, they won’t be saved.

nogames:

Let’s just say, for the sake of your argument, that the bible DOES tell us that being Catholic is a requirement for salvation.

How “Catholic” is a person required to be…in order to be saved?

What did Jesus say?

Also

Here’s some definitions none of those do you want on your soul

 

[steve-b]

we all walk different paths in life ,some believe catholics are the best religion ,others believe its protestant ,its all what’s in your heart and what you believe is true , you walk your own path , no one can tell you which road to take ,only your heart can .

sometimes it does help to talk to others and sometimes it don’t help at all , it all depends on the path you take , remember which ever path you take ,is your path . you don’t walk it alone many has started your path and quit ,before you came and you keep going which shows you are strong

Sounds like indifferentism

 

[lordie]

its abstract poems ,I made it to differ the thought process ,as we differ w it in our heads, sometimes if we see some one else struggle w the same thing its brightens our path more ,by helping them

 

[StevenFrancis]

Because there IS objective truth. The protestant denominations are not what was founded by Jesus Christ. The denominations began cropping up as an over the top response against some legitimate abuses which were occurring in the Church. While referred to by the protestant leaders and thinkers of the time as the “reformation”, it was in fact a splitting away from, and the creation of new churches. Each denomination that cropped up, tended to alter, over-emphasize, or under-emphasize some important teaching, technically placing them in heresy against the Christian doctrines extant from the foundation by Christ and His apostles, and guided by the Holy Spirit, ratified in Church councils, traceable back through Church history to the Church Fathers, the Apostles, and of most importance, to Jesus Christ.

There is good rationale to end up Roman Catholic, one of the Eastern Catholic rites, or one of the Eastern Orthodox churches. They all existed since the Apostolic and foundational age of Christianity (except the Eastern Catholic Rtes, (that’s a long complicated story). They all retain an Apostolic succession, and have valid faculties to confect Holy Eucharist, and administer sacraments in the person of Christ because of an Apostolic line of priesthood and episcopacy passed on by the Apostles of Jesus Christ and founded by Jesus.

So, at a minimum, a person seeking full communion with our Lord should narrow their consideration to those three branches of the same tree discussed above. Prayer to the Holy Spirit will help, as well as openness to objective truth, and a willingness to follow that truth, even if it’s uncomfortable or challenging.

I’m not Catholic because of my “opinions”, or because I like the location, or music, or the pastor gives great sermons, etc… I am there for the sacramental life prescribed by my Lord and my God, and particularly the communion with my Lord in the reception of his validly confected body, blood, soul and divinity.

I absolutely love my protestant brothers and sisters, who I believe have a passionate love of the Lord. I don’t doubt it. LIterally…my brother, my mother, and my whole family tree as far as I can trace it are protestant, (Lutheran to be specific). By culture, inculcation etc., I should be a Lutheran as well. But I wanted to be where Christ led. Not where I just wanted to be for convenience. Much to the confusion of my family. We do have some lively and important debate however, with utmost respect and love for each other.

 

[nogames]

The protestant denominations are not what was founded by Jesus Christ.

There is good rationale to end up Roman Catholic, one of the Eastern Catholic rites, or one of the Eastern Orthodox churches.

They all existed since the Apostolic and foundational age of Christianity (except the Eastern Catholic Rtes, (that’s a long complicated story).

They all retain an Apostolic succession, and have valid faculties to confect Holy Eucharist, and administer sacraments in the person of Christ because of an Apostolic line of priesthood and episcopacy passed on by the Apostles of Jesus Christ and founded by Jesus.

Hi StevenFrancis, How did you come to know that these statements of yours are true?

 

[sudy]

Hi nogames

I was just reading about the Mass that we celebrate and wanted to share some details with you, just as food for thought as I see you’re already a Christian and may be curious about it. I don’t expect that I’m going to somehow convince you to consider the Catholic faith, however. The fact is, you could always look up the origins of the Church, to check it from an historical position, and read the development of doctrine from the individual councils – originally there really was only one Church for all Christians when Our Lord established it. You could look again at the Scriptural passages ‘give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven’, ‘feed my sheep’ etc., and try to find out the meaning. You could consider that Christ prayed for unity. You could also read the early Church fathers and see how they understood the Christian faith, as people who were taught directly by the Apostles. You could consider that Our Lord said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Anyway, here’s some info about what the Mass is all about. Hope you can find some understanding in it.

Explanation of the Mass
“It is the Mass that matters.”
The Sacrifice of the Mass sheds unique lustre and beauty on our churches. The celebration of Mass makes them the place of reconciliation between God and man, the source of heavenly food and the abiding Home of our Saviour.
Having the Mass, we have the abiding Presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ in our midst as our Friend, our Food, our Sacrifice: our Friend whom we can visit on our altars; our Food to nourish us in Holy Communion; our Sacrifice to be offered to God the Father, and through which the merits of Our Redeemer’s blessed Passion and Death are applied to ourselves and our dead.
A striking witness to the vitality of our people’s faith is their personal devotion to the Mass and their evident desire to know more about it and to assist at it more intelligently.

continued on next post as I can’t fit it all in on here…

 

[sudy]

The Meaning of the Mass
The Holy Mass is the One and Only Sacrifice of the New Testament. In the Mass Our Lord Jesus Christ, through the ministry of the priest, offers Himself - His Body and Blood - to God the Father. This offering is made under the appearances of bread and wine. It is a mystical immolation made in an unbloody manner.
By a sacrifice is meant an oblation of something, in which a notable changes is wrought, to God alone in witness of the supreme honour and reverence that man owed Him as his Creator, Master, Beginning and End.
The Sacrifice of the Mass was instituted by Our Lord Himself. In instituting it He left his Church a Sacrifice by which the bloody Sacrifice offered on Calvary should be renewed to the end of time, and the merits of that Sacrifice might be applied on behalf of the living and the dead for remission of sins.
The separate consecration of the bread and the wine inthe Mass represents the actual separation of the Body and Blood of Our Lord in his Death on the Cross.
The Mass is not, however, a mere representation of the Sacrifice of the Cross. It is, in all truth, the actual Sacrifice of the Cross that is renewed on the altar; for the Victim offered is the same - Christ on the altar offering Himself through the ministry of the priest, even as on the Cross He offered Himself.
The only difference consists in the manner of offering. Through the Sacrifice of the Mass God bestows on us the graces that were merited for us by Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross.

The Mass is offered for four purposes:
a To adore God. That is why it is called the “Sacrifice of Praise.”
b To thank God. That is why it is called the “Eucharistic Sacrifice.”
c To obtain grace and benefits. That it why it is called an “Impetratory Sacrifice.”
d To satisfy the justice of God for the sins committed against Him, and make reparation to Him. That is why it is called a “Propitiary Sacrifice.”
Although the Mass may be offered in honour of Our Lady, the Angels and the Saints, it is offered to God alone, since supreme dominion, which the Sacrifice of the Mass honours, belongs to God alone.
Since the Mass is the heart and soul of the Church’s worship, it is not offered for the benefit of the celebrant only, but for all the faithful, both living and dead, and in an especial manner for those whom the celebrant commemorates in the Mass.
The Mass may be offered for some particular person, either living or dead, and also for some particular intention.
The best way of assisting at Mass is to unite with the celebrant in offering the Divine Victim to God, vividly recalling Our Lord’s Sacred Passion and Death on the Cross, and uniting ourselves to Jesus by sacramental or, at least, spiritual Communion.

An extract from “Saint John’s Sunday Missal and every day prayerbook”, 1959

 

[nogames]

The Holy Mass is the One and Only Sacrifice of the New Testament. In the Mass Our Lord Jesus Christ, through the ministry of the priest, offers Himself - His Body and Blood - to God the Father. This offering is made under the appearances of bread and wine. It is a mystical immolation made in an unbloody manner.
By a sacrifice is meant an oblation of something, in which a notable changes is wrought, to God alone in witness of the supreme honour and reverence that man owed Him as his Creator, Master, Beginning and End.
The Sacrifice of the Mass was instituted by Our Lord Himself. In instituting it He left his Church a Sacrifice by which the bloody Sacrifice offered on Calvary should be renewed to the end of time, and the merits of that Sacrifice might be applied on behalf of the living and the dead for remission of sins.
The separate consecration of the bread and the wine inthe Mass represents the actual separation of the Body and Blood of Our Lord in his Death on the Cross.
The Mass is not, however, a mere representation of the Sacrifice of the Cross. It is, in all truth, the actual Sacrifice of the Cross that is renewed on the altar; for the Victim offered is the same - Christ on the altar offering Himself through the ministry of the priest, even as on the Cross He offered Himself.

Thanks, sudy. When (and how) does the wafer and the wine become the actual flesh and blood of Jesus? How do we know that it has become the actual body and blood of Jesus? How do we know that any of this ever happens during mass? How can we know that the mass is a sacrifice rather than a way of remembering the sacrifice of Christ?

 

[sudy]

Thanks for your questions. I’m a little pressed for time at the moment and unlikely to be online for a few days, but I’ll answer the best way I can with the time I have atm. Christianity is such a vast topic which one could study for a lifetime and still not fully know everything, especially where mysteries are concerned.

When (and how) does the wafer and the wine become the actual flesh and blood of Jesus?

When - at the words of Our Lord, ‘Take and eat, this is my body’, ‘Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.’

How is much more difficult to explain, as it is with all of Christ’s other miracles. The nearest I can think to explain it is with how Christ humbled Himself by becoming man.

How do we know that it has become the actual body and blood of Jesus?

Because Christ told us. John 6:53-56 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

How do we know that any of this ever happens during mass?

Christ told us to do this in memory of Him. This is not simply recollecting… the first Christians were Jews and this is not how the Jews understood it. It’s basically a fulfillment of the Passover, and Christ is our Paschal Lamb. I realise this is complex and not easy to explain in a few simple words. Similarly, the manna of the Old Testament is a foreshadowing of Christ’s Body and Blood.

How can we know that the mass is a sacrifice rather than a way of remembering the sacrifice of Christ?

Besides Our Lord’s words, St Paul tells us, too:

1 Corinthians 16 ‘The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?’ and

1 Corinthians 11:26-28 'A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

It would be helpful for you to go back to the beginning of Christianity… see how the early Church understood these topics. The Church has a very rich history. Anyway I’m out of time.

 

[GLam1761]

That is relativism of the secular point of view, there IS
the true Biblical Church, and it is found in 1 Tim. 3:15
“The Church of the Living God, the pillar and support
of the Truth.”, it is the Church that Jesus Christ himself
said He will build on the “rock”, which what the name
Jesus gave Simon Peter means. see Matt. 16:18

 

[StevenFrancis]

Well…after becoming interested, (drawn) to Christianity, it was important to me to know where it came from, and what the what the most important elements of this faith were. I engaged in study of the NT scriptures with a study bible, then I read some history works about the Church. through historians. I then discovered the link between the scriptures and councils, and modern times, (The Church Fathers), who all held up in continuity what I had learned in scripture, and particularly the importance of the sacraments, Mary as theotokos, the importance and the reality of the apostolic priesthood and episcopacy. From the fathers you get to the Church Doctors, Saints and Popes who left writings, etc. All are saying the same things and validating the Catholic thing for it’s 2000 year history. All of this, by the way, (and this is important), accompanied by prayer to the Holy Spirit. It wasn’t just a single slapping my forehead moment. It was a series of them which continue on up to this day. I don;t know what else to say. It starts with Jesus BEING the truth, and believing He IS who He says He IS. then listening and studying closely His teachings. Watching Him pass on the Holy Spirit to His Apostles. Watching the Church form through The Acts of the Apostles, and the Epistles. Seeing how things connect then with the OT prophecies. Then having enough curiosity to follow the story through the faothers, and on up to today. The Church appears to be just as true as mathemeatics the more you look into it. The CCC is a great help as well. The only other thing that may be of interest is trying to keep a bias out of my studies. Having spent most of my adult life in Buddhism I was in pretty good shape on checking myself about bias against or for Catholicism vs. protestantism. In fact, my person bias, coming from a Lutheran home, and my first adult conversations in a serious light having to do with Christian Churches and doctrines was with a Methodist friend, would have leaned protestant for sure. I didn’t necessisarily WANT Catholicism to be the truth. That’s why it’s so important to be willing to go where truth leads, even if it’s where you do not want to go personally because it’s comfortable. Truth is rarely comfortable. If you’re not challenged in some way or another, it’s possible you’re just doing what “feels right”. I’ve been hyperconscious of this during my journey, because what was “comfortable” for me were Buddhism, Eastern mysticism, etc… I didn’t wish to be misled by my desires, and tried to remain as objective as possible. When Jesus made Himself known to me as the truth, it rocked my world in a way I can’t adequately describe, so if I was now destined for Christianity, I was sure it would be Lutheranism. Once again…God had surprises in store for me. The truth of the Catholic Church sometimes is simply overlooked. It’s old, ubiquitous, and hiding in plain sight.

Peace to you

 

[nogames]

That is relativism of the secular point of view, there IS
the true Biblical Church, and it is found in 1 Tim. 3:15
“The Church of the Living God, the pillar and support
of the Truth.”, it is the Church that Jesus Christ himself
said He will build on the “rock”, which what the name
Jesus gave Simon Peter means. see Matt. 16:18

This response to lordie is rather hypocritical. You are making grand assertions about your church that are impossible for you, or anyone, to verify… yet you assert this nonsense without a single shred of evidence with which to back it up. If lordie is guilty of relativism, you are guilty of misleading others with your fiction that the CC is the one that was founded by Jesus. What is even worse is that some of the Catholics here are expressing agreement with “unam sanctum” which is the papal bull stating that there is no salvation outside the CC.