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Metaron
Guest
That’s… terrible… :nope:
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elt1956
Guest
And guess what EVERYONE, God is superior to all of us. So why do we fight, disagree, get our knickers in knots? I guess I just hate confrontations.
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Righteousone
Guest
I understand what you are saying here, I really do except it sounds like you may be a little confused, unsettled in your soul with what’s right and what’s wrong. What to do and what not to do.I am a Protestant ; I attend Mass because since I have a lot of Catholic friends / colleagues and so on (probably more than Protestant ones due to the “religious landscape” in France ) and when they invite me I go … and I sometimes go on my own… there are things I agree with in the Catholic Church, contrary to what you said about “Protestants” in general I don’t "protest against it " ;
I don’t believe in the Real Presence, but during the Eucharist Catholics also remember Christ’s atoning death for us, so even if I don’t take part in it ( because it is forbidden by the Catholic Church, and if I am in somebody’s house I find it normal to respect his rules )–I mean I don’t take the host–, I ask God to forgive my sins, I thank him for his Son’s sacrifice, and since I know that is what Catholics also do, DESPITE THE DIFFERENCE ( Real Presence or not ) I feel in fellowship with all the Catholics who are in the communion line because I know that they are also remembering Christ’s death…
I don’t say the “Hail Mary”, nor do I use the sign of the Cross, I just keep quiet and nobody ever jumped at me for that ; but when the Catholics say the Lord’s prayer I say it with them, when they pray and if I agree with what they pray for ( which is very often the case, except when they pray for the dead, then I don’t associate myself with these prayers ) I fully associate my prayers to theirs, I use the “response” ( I don’t know what you call it, sometimes it is simply amen but sometimes there is a kind of chanted response, like Lord we beseech you …) they use ; there are some Bible readings during Mass, three if I’m not mistaken, then just before I ask God to open my heart; if I agree with the hymns I also sing them, anyway there are hymns that are sung by both Protestants and Catholics, and even when there are specifically Catholic hymns and I agree with the words, I also sing them ( well, if I can catch up … if it is too difficult I don’t sing but I say the words in my heart, silently …)
And then I also listen to what the priest preaches, sometimes I agree with him, or partially, but I wouldn’t agree with everything a “Liberal” Protestant minister would say either, so I don’t really see the difference …
The French Protestant Federation has a Bible reading guide that proposes texts for everyday , with a small comment ; recently, they have decided to add some texts on Sundays and “special occasions” ( I mean Christmas, Easter … I don’t know the exact English word for these days … festivals ??? holy days ? ) and the texts they “add” ( they propose to read after the usual two texts a day ) are the texts of the Catholic Church for that day …
And when, on Sundays, or at Easter, or at Christmas, I read these “extra” texts, I’m happy to know that Catholics who attend Mass on that day will hear the texts I’m reading, I also feel in fellowship with them thinking we are reading or hearing the same texts on the same day ( there is just one exception : if among the texts proposed by the Catholic church some are taken from the Deuterocanonical books, then they are not “proposed” by the French Protestant Federation, but I wouldn’t be shocked if one day they went further and proposed them too --maybe giving the references in a different colour for instance to underline they’re Deuterocanonical …we use a lot of different Bible translations, not only Protestant ones, because some French Catholic translations are considered very good even by Protestants, so we sometimes also read the Deuterocanonical books : we don’t give them the same “authority” as to the other books, but it is not “forbidden” to read them )
Well you see there are a lot of things a Protestant can do in a Catholic Church …
I don’t see any problem going back to my own church “after that” ; I don’t feel I’m sinning attending Mass ( since I don’t do anything I disagree with there …) from time to time, even my minister does so …
But I don’t go to Mass regularly, sometimes I don’t go for months, because sure I prefer to go to my own church …
Well well well I hope I haven’t shocked anybody here ( Catholic or Protestant )…
Some Catholics also come and “visit” us …
I don’t want to “minimize” the differences there are between us ( I don’t even agree with infant baptism, I’m Evangelical ), but I try to do as much as I can with Catholics IN SPITE of the differences …
There are types of Masses I couldn’t attend because I think I wouldn’t feel at ease at all, for example some Catholics invited me to “Eucharist Adoration” ( I don’t know if that is the exact term in English ) , well there I would surely feel very ill at ease since I don’t believe in the Real Presence ; or I couldn’t attend a Mass said for a dead person …
A lot of French Protestants are so occupied trying to get nearer to Catholics that they forget … the other Protestants : I’ve never attended a Reformed or a Lutheran service
Me personally, there is only one church for me and that is the Catholic chuch. I don’t need to attend somewhere else to ‘see’ what it’s like. I wouldn’t waste my time somewhere else. I have the church Christ revealed to us, why would I go anywhere else? I cannot. I am at peace where I am.
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Singinbeauty
Guest
So why would a protestant join you at Mass if they are content in the church they attend?
Waste your time? How would it be a waste to worship the Almighty with your brothers and sisters? I am not saying you need to join another church but the fact that you so blatantly refuse to even enterain the thought of worshipping with protestants just once tells a lot about what you think of your brothers and sisters in Christ…
It’s attitude like yours (among other things) that tells me the catholic church is not the way for me…
J
Jacquelinem
Guest
Attending a protestant service for me would be a totally empty experience. Only during mass can one receive Jesus in the Eucharist and that’s plenty enough reason for me…
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Singinbeauty
Guest
This makes me sad. To think you can’t come into contact with God anywhere but inside a certain building is amazing to me. To think you can’t get anything out of a protestant service shows how closed minded you are.
I will pray for you.
T
t68ware
Guest
I think it is a shame that some Catholics who never, ever, attended a Protestant church service think it is “a waste of time.” What do you base your astute observations on? What you have been told about us Protestants? Oh wait, I do know what some of you have been told about us Protestants, just like I know what us Protestants have been told about Catholics, and both camps have lots of thinking to do. I know you believe you have the One true Church, but refusing to step into a Protestant Church and think worshiping God is a waste of time is a sad statement. I guess the Omnipresent God only resides in the Catholic worship services.
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kalt
Guest
I think you misunderstand. We have the real presence in the Eucharist.
Why would we choose to worship in a church that doesn’t have it, instead of in one that does.
I understand that you probably don’t believe in it, but we do. So from our POV, a Protestant church’s service wouldn’t be the same.
FWIW, I spent time in an 2 Episcopalian churches and a Methodist church. While the people there were much more chummy than at the CC (I really loved that about those churches), it is only the CC that has the real presence. That, I realized, is what was lacking for me in the other churches. You don’t see that as “lacking”. But that’s because we have different beliefs.
Going to a Protestant service in addition to a Mass wouldn’t bother me. But a Protestant service can’t replace the Mass. (for the above reason.)
It’s not an insult to you or your church. We believe in the real presence, and we wouldn’t choose to do without it. This is to explain why we would choose a Mass over a Protestant service, and why we don’t see them as interchangable or different versions of the same thing. It’s not to say that I think a Protestant service is worthless or doesn’t have very good things to offer Catholics. It just doesn’t have the real presence in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is the center of the Mass. It isn’t just part of it, it is the reason.
Choosing a Mass over a Protestant service isn’t a negative comment about a Protestant service, it’s a positive statement about the Mass. It’s not about trashing Protestantism, it’s about accepting Catholicism. Going to a Mass instead of a service isn’t about denying the validity of a Protestant service, it’s about celebrating the real presence in the Eucharist. I guess I can sum it up by saying that it really isn’t about you. We’re are making a positive choice for the real presence, not a negative choice against Protestantism.When you go to services, are you going it to deny the validity of Catholicism or because you believe that your church has it right?
(Now that I’ve written all of this, I realize that I didn’t read the whole thread. If my comments are a little off the point or aren’t following the discussion in a sensible way, I apologize.
)
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t68ware
Guest
nice post!!I think you misunderstand. We have the real presence in the Eucharist.
Why would we choose to worship in a church that doesn’t have it, instead of in one that does.
I understand that you probably don’t believe in it, but we do. So from our POV, a Protestant church’s service wouldn’t be the same.
FWIW, I spent time in an 2 Episcopalian churches and a Methodist church. While the people there were much more chummy than at the CC (I really loved that about those churches), it is only the CC that has the real presence. That, I realized, is what was lacking for me in the other churches. You don’t see that as “lacking”. But that’s because we have different beliefs.
Going to a Protestant service in addition to a Mass wouldn’t bother me. But a Protestant service can’t replace the Mass. (for the above reason.)
It’s not an insult to you or your church. We believe in the real presence, and we wouldn’t choose to do without it. This is to explain why we would choose a Mass over a Protestant service, and why we don’t see them as interchangable or different versions of the same thing. It’s not to say that I think a Protestant service is worthless or doesn’t have very good things to offer Catholics. It just doesn’t have the real presence in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is the center of the Mass. It isn’t just part of it, it is the reason.
When you go to services, are you going it to deny the validity of Catholicism or because you believe that your church has it right?
(Now that I’ve written all of this, I realize that I didn’t read the whole thread. If my comments are a little off the point or aren’t following the discussion in a sensible way, I apologize.
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Righteousone
Guest
Listen, to me and it is my opinion only, as I am not speaking for other Catholics, although some may feel just as I do. I cannot attend another’s ‘church’. To me it isn’t the ‘church’ Jesus revealed to us. Plain and simple isn’t it? And what is wrong if I ‘blatantly refuse’ to worship somewhere other than my Catholic church? So what? What is it to you anyway?So why would a protestant join you at Mass if they are content in the church they attend?
Waste your time? How would it be a waste to worship the Almighty with your brothers and sisters? I am not saying you need to join another church but the fact that you so blatantly refuse to even enterain the thought of worshipping with protestants just once tells a lot about what you think of your brothers and sisters in Christ…
It’s attitude like yours (among other things) that tells me the catholic church is not the way for me…
And I do not agree we are all brothers and sisters in Christ because there are too many differences in our religions. It isn’t just about a belief in Christ, but much deeper than that. It is what he told us to do after he died, it is what others have interpreted wrong in Scripture, it is the gifts he left us that others cannot see, like the gift of the Mass, the gift of his Mother, the gift of the Shroud, the rosary, the gift of the saints etc…I could go on forever…
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Singinbeauty
Guest
Your own catechism disagrees with you… I guess you don’t follow everything it teaches…
It is wrong to refuse to worship with those who are your brothers and sisters in Christ. How can you expect us to be open to see what you see in the catholic church if you outright express your distaste for us?
Christ said to go and make disciples of men, you can’t do that by showing that you think we are idiots.
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Righteousone
Guest
You know singinbeauty, I am getting tired of your remarks when I am trying to explain to you my reasons for not wanting to worship elsewhere. I never said you were an ‘idiot’, perhaps you think of yourself as such. I am not perfect, I do not follow anything word for word and anyone who says they do is a sinner.
I do not have ‘distaste’ for you as YOU say I do, I respect anyone who loves Jesus Christ, except I will only attend my Holy Mass or I would be empty without it. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out…
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Singinbeauty
Guest
I do not mean to make you feel uneasy… I understand, to a point, what you are saying. BUT you said that you respect us though you don’t believe we are brothers and sisters. You state that you couldn’t attend a protestant service (and I never said you would have to join or ONLY attend it) because Christ is not present there. If I know that He is, it is almost as if you are saying I am an idiot because that is not the case.You know singinbeauty, I am getting tired of your remarks when I am trying to explain to you my reasons for not wanting to worship elsewhere. I never said you were an ‘idiot’, perhaps you think of yourself as such. I am not perfect, I do not follow anything word for word and anyone who says they do is a sinner.
I do not have ‘distaste’ for you as YOU say I do, I respect anyone who loves Jesus Christ, except I will only attend my Holy Mass or I would be empty without it. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out…
I would never say that I could never attend a catholic mass because God is present where 2 or more are gathered in His name so why would I deny myself the presence of God anywhere? I am just trying to say that your close mindedness might prevent you from some really extordinary experiences… But that is your choice…
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GatorMommy
Guest
While the vast majority of my Protestant experiences have been in Baptist churches (with a mix of Presbyterian and non-Denominational churches), I have to say that I agree with Jacquelinem and Kalt.
They spend too much time listening to/watching a preacher “hoot-an-holler” (quoting my Southern grandma) at the pulpit, looking at a matching choir that lines the area behind the preacher, and comparing what everyone is wearing. That emptiness is what started me looking elsewhere.
There is a vast difference between a Fundamentalist service and one in a Catholic or even an Orthodox Church. There is a solemness, a knowledge that Christ is there in the flesh. Being Catholic, I can honestly say that I’ll never go back. Praise be to God.
J
JReducation
Guest
Actually, this is not a Protestant innovation. It is Franciscan. St. Francis of Assisi did not allow his Brothers to wear crucifixes. To this day, none of the Franciscan Orders of men may wear a crucifix. Observe the Franciscan Friars on EWTN.
Later, during one of the reforms of the Order, a side rosary was added to the habit, which has since become optional as it is a Dominican tradition, not Franciscan (but that’s another story). When the side rosary was added by the Capuchin-Franciscans, during the 1500s, it had no crucifix, just a wooden cross.
On Francis’ first habit the cross was drawn onto the fabric in the form of a T called a Tau. In the Friars’ first chapel, San Damiano in Assisi, there was no crucifix, until today there is an Eastern Rite icon of Christ Crucified.
Francis taught his Brothers and those to whom he preached to love and embrace the crucified Christ by taking up their cross through a life of constant conversion and penance. His theology of the cross was tied into the Church’s theology of the Resurrection. He taught that only through the cross does the Christian arrive at the resurrection. Therefore the plain cross was a constant reminder that the person looking at it or wearing it is to embrace the cross in order to become a perfect mirror of Jesus Christ.
This custom was taken by Franciscans around the world for more than three hundred years before some Protestants adopted it.
The crucifix is traditionally a western symbol. It was adopted by the Western Church long after the founding of the Church. The original symbol of the Church was a fish and later a cross. This is why the Eastern Church, both Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox never use crucifixes to this day. They retain the original tradition. They do use icons with the crucified Christ painted on a board.
But as I said above, the idea of a plain cross was reintroduced into Roman Catholicism by St. Francis of Assisi. His introductions into Roman Catholicism include the Christmas crib, the Christmas pageant and the stations of the cross. Neither existed before him. In his original stations of the cross, the crosses were always simple, without a corpus. Again, he was not anti Christ, but just the opposite. He promoted the embrace of the cross as our vocation to holiness.
Thanks for letting me share.
JR
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elt1956
Guest
What is the problem here? This person has opened her heart to us on this board and she gets knocked because you think she is confused. No wonder other Religions are suspicious of the Catholic Faith. If I attend a service other than a Catholic one with a friend, or relative, I do it because I respect their beliefs and the fact they are on a journey just the same as I. I am happy you are settled in your soul and you know exactly what is right and what is wrong, but a closed mind is an unsearching one and I am finding way too many closed minds on these forums. I thought communication was supposed to bring people together. To begin an understanding of one another. What I see is someone not of the Catholic faith being embarressed by a rule ridden Catholic. Many here are blind to the openess of others. What are you afraid of?
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elt1956
Guest
You know, after reading the reasoning behind the plain cross in Prostestant Churches, I find it quite refreshing. And now that you mention St. Francis , possibly my most favorite saint, next to maybe St. Joan of Arc, IS always shown with a simple cross.Actually, this is not a Protestant innovation. It is Franciscan. St. Francis of Assisi did not allow his Brothers to wear crucifixes. To this day, none of the Franciscan Orders of men may wear a crucifix. Observe the Franciscan Friars on EWTN.
Later, during one of the reforms of the Order, a side rosary was added to the habit, which has since become optional as it is a Dominican tradition, not Franciscan (but that’s another story). When the side rosary was added by the Capuchin-Franciscans, during the 1500s, it had no crucifix, just a wooden cross.
On Francis’ first habit the cross was drawn onto the fabric in the form of a T called a Tau. In the Friars’ first chapel, San Damiano in Assisi, there was no crucifix, until today there is an Eastern Rite icon of Christ Crucified.
Francis taught his Brothers and those to whom he preached to love and embrace the crucified Christ by taking up their cross through a life of constant conversion and penance. His theology of the cross was tied into the Church’s theology of the Resurrection. He taught that only through the cross does the Christian arrive at the resurrection. Therefore the plain cross was a constant reminder that the person looking at it or wearing it is to embrace the cross in order to become a perfect mirror of Jesus Christ.
This custom was taken by Franciscans around the world for more than three hundred years before some Protestants adopted it.
The crucifix is traditionally a western symbol. It was adopted by the Western Church long after the founding of the Church. The original symbol of the Church was a fish and later a cross. This is why the Eastern Church, both Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox never use crucifixes to this day. They retain the original tradition. They do use icons with the crucified Christ painted on a board.
But as I said above, the idea of a plain cross was reintroduced into Roman Catholicism by St. Francis of Assisi. His introductions into Roman Catholicism include the Christmas crib, the Christmas pageant and the stations of the cross. Neither existed before him. In his original stations of the cross, the crosses were always simple, without a corpus. Again, he was not anti Christ, but just the opposite. He promoted the embrace of the cross as our vocation to holiness.
Thanks for letting me share.
JR
H
Huguenot
Guest
Well Righteousone, it seems whatever a Protestant answers you, you’ll never be satisfied.
If one says “I 'll never attend Mass”, you will say : “look how intolerant, anti-Catholic these Protestants are !”
and if one, like me, tells you he / she ( for me … ) attends Mass and finds a lot of things he / she can do to be in fellowship with Catholics, well it’s wrong too …
Don’t worry for me, I know what to do in my conscience, I couldn’t be a Catholic because I don’t want to be hypocritical and there are too many doctrines I don’t agree with in the Catholic church, but I WANT to have contacts with Catholics, that’s why I go to Mass from time to time, and unlike some Catholics who say they feel “empty” after a Protestant service ( on this forum it seems some of you see anything Protestants do as “empty”, as if WE ourselves were “empty”, superficial … ), I don’t feel “empty” after a Catholic Mass because there are a lot of things I can associate myself with, I’ve given you some examples …( and you see that there are things I feel I can do , others I feel I can’t do : so it’s clear in my conscience what I can or can’t do in a Catholic church … and if I’m not sure I don’t do it … until I’ve had time to think it over … )
I’ve got the feeling that for you it’s either all black or all white : either I must be a Catholic or if I’m a Protestant I shouldn’t have anything in common with Catholics, I should never feel in fellowship with them : must I be sorry if I do feel in fellowship with you ??? at least sometimes ???
we’ve all had different lives … maybe the fact that I feel nearer to Catholics now comes from the fact that I’ve grown in an atheist family and was an atheist ( a militant one moreover ! ) myself ; by becoming a Protestant I AM nearer to the Catholic church than when I was an atheist, it seems fairly obvious to me …
and instead of encouraging me in my faith, in my efforts to come nearer, your messages do exactly the contrary …
I try to get as near as I can, and you sort of push me away, and then you will complain that Protestants don’t want to know anything about Catholics and their faith …
Well if I didn’t want to know anything about Catholicism I wouldn’t go to Mass in the first place …
And even in periods when I don’t go to Mass I have “natural” contacts with Catholics in my everyday life since in France there are about 40 Catholics for one Protestant … ( so you see I can even “choose” with which Catholics I want to speak
)
H
Huguenot
Guest
well it’s true I feel a bit knocked precisely because I’ve opened my heart, I’ve said very personal things even my family doesn’t know about…What is the problem here? This person has opened her heart to us on this board and she gets knocked because you think she is confused. No wonder other Religions are suspicious of the Catholic Faith. If I attend a service other than a Catholic one with a friend, or relative, I do it because I respect their beliefs and the fact they are on a journey just the same as I. I am happy you are settled in your soul and you know exactly what is right and what is wrong, but a closed mind is an unsearching one and I am finding way too many closed minds on these forums. I thought communication was supposed to bring people together. To begin an understanding of one another. What I see is someone not of the Catholic faith being embarressed by a rule ridden Catholic. Many here are blind to the openess of others. What are you afraid of?
it makes me wonder if it is really worth going on …
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