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D
De_Maria
Guest
But since there is no proof of the truth in the Quran or any of the circumstances surrounding its writing, then Mohammed prophethood stands remains unproven.The Qur’an is the ultimate proof that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of God.
It is totally illogical to accept the Quran as truth when it has been proven to be false.If you do decide to accept the truth of the Qur’an, then it becomes totally illogical for you to continue denying his Prophet-hood.
Sincerely,
De Maria
B
Booklover
Guest
Why is the Quran the word of God? Muhammad said so!The Qur’an is the ultimate proof that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of God.
If you do decide to accept the truth of the Qur’an, then it becomes totally illogical for you to continue denying his Prophet-hood.
Why is Muhammad a prophet? The Quran says so.
Vickie
M
Mr.Bee
Guest
Hello again hamba,The Qur’an is the ultimate proof that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of God.
If you do decide to accept the truth of the Qur’an, then it becomes totally illogical for you to continue denying his Prophet-hood.
Why should I accept the Qur’an as truth, other than the prophet Muhammad said so?
J
jblake
Guest
hamba2han;:
A jealous God would not have made that error.
xan
jonathon
The simplest is that it contradicts itself: It commands one to only worship one deity, then turns around and requires that one worship three other deities.whether or not the Qur’an is truly what it claims to be i.e. the literal Speech of God.
A jealous God would not have made that error.
xan
jonathon
J
jblake
Guest
swariffin;:
The Ancient Egyptians had a different proof that the world was either a sphere, or a cylinder.(Solar Parallax)
The Phoenicians had a third proof that the world was either a sphere, or a cylinder. (Disappearing boats)
It might not have permeated popular culture, but the fact that the world was not flat was known well before 600 AD.
xan
jonathon
Aristotle had one proof that the world was either a sphere, or a cylinder.(Lunar eclipses)At year 600’s nobody think the earth is round, I believe.
The Ancient Egyptians had a different proof that the world was either a sphere, or a cylinder.(Solar Parallax)
The Phoenicians had a third proof that the world was either a sphere, or a cylinder. (Disappearing boats)
It might not have permeated popular culture, but the fact that the world was not flat was known well before 600 AD.
xan
jonathon
J
jblake
Guest
swariffin;:
If presented with data that one does not know, then one randomly tests the accuracy of that data. If the results of those tests indicate that the data is accurate, then one can assume that all of it is accurate. If the results of those tests indicate that the data is not accurate, then one can assume that all of the data is inaccurate.
With spiritual things, one can only know after the fact that which is objectively true.
What one can do, is test the accuracy of statements that refer to physical objects.
If the statements about physical objects are false, then the statements about spiritual affairs are probably false.
If the statements are physical objects are true, then the statements about spiritual things may be true.
When the physical statements in the Q’ran do not correspond to objective reality, then the Q’ran can be discarded, on the grounds that since it inaccurately describes physical existence, it inaccurately describes spiritual affairs.
See also message # 124 and #125 in this thread.
xan
jonathon
There is the “Credibility Factor”.Let us not blame Muhammad if he thought that the earth is flat. He was correct within his time frame.
If presented with data that one does not know, then one randomly tests the accuracy of that data. If the results of those tests indicate that the data is accurate, then one can assume that all of it is accurate. If the results of those tests indicate that the data is not accurate, then one can assume that all of the data is inaccurate.
With spiritual things, one can only know after the fact that which is objectively true.
What one can do, is test the accuracy of statements that refer to physical objects.
If the statements about physical objects are false, then the statements about spiritual affairs are probably false.
If the statements are physical objects are true, then the statements about spiritual things may be true.
When the physical statements in the Q’ran do not correspond to objective reality, then the Q’ran can be discarded, on the grounds that since it inaccurately describes physical existence, it inaccurately describes spiritual affairs.
See also message # 124 and #125 in this thread.
xan
jonathon
R
revelations
Guest
I don’t understand why it matters so much if Muhammad was a Prophet or not? Sure he was a prophet! He received a spiritual message and brought it forth into writing. I do not contest that fact one bit.
What I do contest is what kind of spirit Muhammad did indeed receive this writing from…
We can’t keep saying that the Qu’ran is true because Muhammad is the prophet of God, and that Muhammad is the Prophet of God because the Qu’ran says so.
What is the history of the Qu’ran? Why does it not also contain the books of the Talmud and the Torah, the Jewish books? Because those were revealed from the God of Abraham, the same God of Islam apparently.
What I do contest is what kind of spirit Muhammad did indeed receive this writing from…
We can’t keep saying that the Qu’ran is true because Muhammad is the prophet of God, and that Muhammad is the Prophet of God because the Qu’ran says so.
What is the history of the Qu’ran? Why does it not also contain the books of the Talmud and the Torah, the Jewish books? Because those were revealed from the God of Abraham, the same God of Islam apparently.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Excellent!There is the “Credibility Factor”.
If presented with data that one does not know, then one randomly tests the accuracy of that data. If the results of those tests indicate that the data is accurate, then one can assume that all of it is accurate. If the results of those tests indicate that the data is not accurate, then one can assume that all of the data is inaccurate.
With spiritual things, one can only know after the fact that which is objectively true.
What one can do, is test the accuracy of statements that refer to physical objects.
If the statements about physical objects are false, then the statements about spiritual affairs are probably false.
If the statements are physical objects are true, then the statements about spiritual things may be true.
When the physical statements in the Q’ran do not correspond to objective reality, then the Q’ran can be discarded, on the grounds that since it inaccurately describes physical existence, it inaccurately describes spiritual affairs.
See also message # 124 and #125 in this thread.
xan
jonathon
R
revelations
Guest
J, could you elaborate on this one? I’m interestedThe simplest is that it contradicts itself: It commands one to only worship one deity, then turns around and requires that one worship three other deities.
M
MelanieAnne
Guest
Muhammad is not the Greatest. Muhammad, in our world today, is treated as if he were a GOD but he is not. At best, Muhammad might be considered a holy man. I do not think of him that way.
Muhammad, at best, was deceived. By whom, I cannot say because I don’t know the identity of the deceiver, I can only know that Muhammad was deceived if he thought to found a new religion that sought to diminish the role of OUR LORD, our Saviour, who Muhammad relegated to the role of “prophet”.
We have the proof of the lack of information of Islam in our own scriptures, I saw it for myself in the words on the walls of a Cathedral I visited in the last few days. I will seek to find those words and quote them here, but I suspect that those who know the facts to already have the information and may post it before I do.
Jesus is the LAST WORD, so after Jesus there can be no other. As such, Muhammad is not a true prophet. Why is this so hard to figure out? Jesus was the last. After Jesus, there can only be “false prophets”.
Muhammad is not the Greatest. In human terms, I don’t even know what he represents beyond a distraction. Jesus is the Way, HE is the LIFE, HE is the TRUTH.
Jesus, we LOVE you, we HONOR you, we TRUST in YOUR mercy, please grant our request that you will lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy.
Muhammad, at best, was deceived. By whom, I cannot say because I don’t know the identity of the deceiver, I can only know that Muhammad was deceived if he thought to found a new religion that sought to diminish the role of OUR LORD, our Saviour, who Muhammad relegated to the role of “prophet”.
We have the proof of the lack of information of Islam in our own scriptures, I saw it for myself in the words on the walls of a Cathedral I visited in the last few days. I will seek to find those words and quote them here, but I suspect that those who know the facts to already have the information and may post it before I do.
Jesus is the LAST WORD, so after Jesus there can be no other. As such, Muhammad is not a true prophet. Why is this so hard to figure out? Jesus was the last. After Jesus, there can only be “false prophets”.
Muhammad is not the Greatest. In human terms, I don’t even know what he represents beyond a distraction. Jesus is the Way, HE is the LIFE, HE is the TRUTH.
Jesus, we LOVE you, we HONOR you, we TRUST in YOUR mercy, please grant our request that you will lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
We Muslims can understand that the Catholics don’t believe Muhammad was the greatest of the ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH, that is your own free will, to which you are entitled to, no compulsion.
GodAllahYHWH says following about Muhammad;
[33:39] No blame can attach to the Prophet with respect to that which Allah has made incumbent upon him. Such, indeed, was the way of Allah with those who have passed before - and the command of Allah is a decree ordained -
[33:40] Those who delivered the Messages of Allah and feared Him, and feared none but Allah. And sufficient is Allah as a reckoner.**
[33:41] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah, and the seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things**.
[33:42] O ye who believe! remember Allah much;
[33:43] And glorify Him morning and evening.
[33:44] He it is Who sends down His blessing on you, and His angels pray for you, that He may bring you forth from all kinds of darkness into light. And He is Merciful to the believers.
[33:45] Their greeting on the day, when they meet Him, will be ‘Peace.’ And He has prepared for them an honourable reward. **
[33:46] O Prophet! truly We have sent thee as a Witness and a Bearer of glad tidings, and a Warner,
[33:47] And as a Summoner unto Allah by His command, and as a light-giving Lamp. **[33:48] And announce to the believers the glad tidings that they will have great bounty from Allah.
[33:49] And follow not the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and overlook their annoying talk and put thy trust in Allah; for Allah is sufficient as a guardian.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=33&verse=40
So with him the ProphethoodMessengership has been completed, that is why he was the first ProphetMessenger to the whole World.
Thanks
We Muslims can understand that the Catholics don’t believe Muhammad was the greatest of the ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH, that is your own free will, to which you are entitled to, no compulsion.
GodAllahYHWH says following about Muhammad;
[33:39] No blame can attach to the Prophet with respect to that which Allah has made incumbent upon him. Such, indeed, was the way of Allah with those who have passed before - and the command of Allah is a decree ordained -
[33:40] Those who delivered the Messages of Allah and feared Him, and feared none but Allah. And sufficient is Allah as a reckoner.**
[33:41] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah, and the seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things**.
[33:42] O ye who believe! remember Allah much;
[33:43] And glorify Him morning and evening.
[33:44] He it is Who sends down His blessing on you, and His angels pray for you, that He may bring you forth from all kinds of darkness into light. And He is Merciful to the believers.
[33:45] Their greeting on the day, when they meet Him, will be ‘Peace.’ And He has prepared for them an honourable reward. **
[33:46] O Prophet! truly We have sent thee as a Witness and a Bearer of glad tidings, and a Warner,
[33:47] And as a Summoner unto Allah by His command, and as a light-giving Lamp. **[33:48] And announce to the believers the glad tidings that they will have great bounty from Allah.
[33:49] And follow not the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and overlook their annoying talk and put thy trust in Allah; for Allah is sufficient as a guardian.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=33&verse=40
So with him the ProphethoodMessengership has been completed, that is why he was the first ProphetMessenger to the whole World.
Thanks
R
revelations
Guest
Did he prohesy anything? Did he bring forth any prophecies? Or did he serve as a divine messenger? No disrespect intended but in english there is a difference between a prophet and a messenger.
Usually the Prophets in the old testament prophsied about events in the future that were fulfilled. Are there Muhammidic prophesies?
Or just a Muhammidic message?
Usually the Prophets in the old testament prophsied about events in the future that were fulfilled. Are there Muhammidic prophesies?
Or just a Muhammidic message?
J
jblake
Guest
revelations;:
xan
jonathon
Good point.What I do contest is what kind of spirit Muhammad did indeed receive this writing from.
The Hadith admits to two major redactions. Textual analysis indicates that there are five or six levels of textual alteration. There are two or three known, ancient copies that are very different from the current version of the Q’ran.What is the history of the Qu’ran?
Depending on which sect of Islam one studies, the Gospels, the Psalms, and the Torah are equal in status to either the Hadith, or the Q’ran.Why does it not also contain the books of the Talmud and the Torah,
xan
jonathon
P
paarsurrey
Guest
HiDid he prohesy anything? Did he bring forth any prophecies? Or did he serve as a divine messenger? No disrespect intended but in english there is a difference between a prophet and a messenger.
You are right, English language does not elaborate fully the Hebrew or Arabic root-word n-b-e ‘*Nabi’ *, it covers all the three periods; past, present and future. The pristine news that Nabi receives from GodAllahYHWH and deliveres to his people (that is why he is called a messengrer or Rasul in Arabic); could be from the unseen realm pertaining to any period, past, present and future. But that is not the topic of the thread.
For believing/accepting in Muhammad, all ProphetsMessengers (NabiRasul) were taken a Covenant, as he represents all of them in this age.
[3:80] It does not befit a truthful man that Allah should give him the Book and Wisdom and Prophethood, and then he should say to men, 'Be my worshippers instead of Allah; but he would say, ‘Be solely devoted to the Lord because you teach the book and because you study it’.
[3:81] Nor does it befit him that he should bid you to take the angels and the Prophets for lords. What! Would he enjoin you to disbelieve after you have submitted to God.**
[3:82] And remember the time when Allah took a covenant from the people through the Prophets, saying, ‘Whatever I give you of the Book and Wisdom and then there comes to you a Messenger, fulfilling that which is with you, you shall believe in him and help him.’ And He said, ‘Do you agree, and do you accept the responsibility which I lay upon you in this matter?’ They said, ‘We agree.’ He said, ‘Then bear witness and I am with you among the witnesses.’
[3:83] Now whoso turns away after this, then, surely, those are the transgressors. **[3:84] Do they seek a religion other than Allah’s, while to Him submits whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they all be returned?
[3:85] Say, ‘We believe in Allah and that which has been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and in that which was given to Moses and Jesus and other Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them and to Him we submit.’
[3:86] And whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him, and, in the Hereafter he shall be among the losers.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=3&verse=80
To have an idea what Muhammad brought from GodAllahYHWH from the unseen realm kindly access if you like.
alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_6_section_1.html
Thanks
P
planten
Guest
Hello again hamba,
For the same reason as you have believed the bible as the word of God. There is no need for any other reason. That is for you only, please.Why should I accept the Qur’an as truth, other than the prophet Muhammad said so?
P
planten
Guest
And the same must have been surely known to the writers of the bible in 80 A.D. I wonder if they mentioned any of those things in the bible, i.e. the things which you are telling now?? Please find out.Aristotle had one proof that the world was either a sphere, or a cylinder.(Lunar eclipses)
The Ancient Egyptians had a different proof that the world was either a sphere, or a cylinder.(Solar Parallax)
The Phoenicians had a third proof that the world was either a sphere, or a cylinder. (Disappearing boats)
It might not have permeated popular culture, but the fact that the world was not flat was known well before 600 AD.
xan
jonathon
J
jblake
Guest
revelations;:
Sura an-Najm (Star) 53:18-22
Verily he saw one of the greater revelations of his Lord.
Now tell me about Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat,
The third one, another goddess.
What! For you the males and for him the females!
That indeed is an unfair division.
53:58-62
None beside Allah can disclose it.
Marvel ye then at this statement,
And laugh and not weep,
While ye amuse yourselves ?
Rather prostrate yourselves before Allah and serve Him.
Sura 53:20 is the only one that explicitly mentions Goddesses. There are other passages that hint at Goddesses, but other explanations that are more logical / closer to the “plain meaning” of the text.
The passages in the Q’ran that contradict the other five Pillars of Islam are far more obscure.
xan
jonathon
By definition, the Q’ran can not be translated. Any site that claims to have a translation of the Q’ran can be instantly dismissed as being incompetent to discuss the Q’ran. The best that is available in languages other than Classical Arabic is a paraphrase.J, could you elaborate on this one? I’m interested
Sura an-Najm (Star) 53:18-22
Verily he saw one of the greater revelations of his Lord.
Now tell me about Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat,
The third one, another goddess.
What! For you the males and for him the females!
That indeed is an unfair division.
53:58-62
None beside Allah can disclose it.
Marvel ye then at this statement,
And laugh and not weep,
While ye amuse yourselves ?
Rather prostrate yourselves before Allah and serve Him.
Sura 53:20 is the only one that explicitly mentions Goddesses. There are other passages that hint at Goddesses, but other explanations that are more logical / closer to the “plain meaning” of the text.
The passages in the Q’ran that contradict the other five Pillars of Islam are far more obscure.
xan
jonathon
I
inJESUS
Guest
the Bible was written by dozens of prophets, each completing each other, and never claiming the word of God is currupt. Hence Jews have all their writings. Christians have the writings of Jewish prophets, in addition to the teachings of Jesus that fulfill the Jewish scriptures and establish the Messianic covenant…that is why we have both, OT and NT in harmony.There is no need for anothr prophet.For the same reason as you have believed the bible as the word of God. There is no need for any other reason. That is for you only, please.
Muhammad was no Jew. You do not have the OT and NT but claim them corrupt (unlike true prophets who wrote previous scriptures), and you got a totally different book, opposing both OT and NT, without theological harmony between Quran and previous scriptures…your religion is based on claiming corruption…without this claim, you have no legs to stand on…and no true prophet of God proclaimed that the word of God is corrupt.
So for us, it is easy to compare what the prophets taught in OT till NT to realize it is the word of God…there are harmony in teachings and theology and prophecies and fulfillment, which does not fit the Quran because it is based on apocrypha, legends, and some Gnosticism, all of which are the words of men written after the scriptures…not to mention that Muhammad opposes both scriptures, and never did God send a prophet who opposes previous prophets and claims their words are corrupt.
there is theological harmony in the word of God…there is no theological harmony in Quran except claiming the word of God need to be “corrected” (without actually correcting anything), and no true prophet came with the purpose of correcting the word of God by creating a new book and new religion.
I
inJESUS
Guest
whether they exist or not is one things, and saying that if they exist they must be from God is another thing. That is why you do not find Jews and Christians looking for such info to determine if the book is from God or not, only Muslims do.And the same must have been surely known to the writers of the bible in 80 A.D. I wonder if they mentioned any of those things in the bible, i.e. the things which you are telling now?? Please find out.
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