Why is Social Justice Less Important Than...

[Brad]

katherine2:

No lies, dear.

Until a recent Court decision, many states had laws which gave out jail sentences for homosexuality and many conservatives howled when these laws were struct down.

As for people’s livelihood, it is still legal in most parts of this country to take away a person’s job simply because they are gay. And the right wing has been strident in opposing any suggestion that this should change.

Stick to the topic please. What does this have to do with legalizing homosexual “marriage” or unions? In any event, I don’t know of any Catholics that support taking away a job or putting someone in jail for being homosexual. That is the fear and smear mentality of liberals.

 

[Brendan]

fix:

Sodomy should be illegal. It has been for centuries. It is against the divine law, the natural law and should be against the civil law.

We also put prostitutes in jail for consensual sex. Katherine, do you believe that prostitution should be made legal as well?

Like any crime against natural law, civil punishements are appropriate for those who are inclined towards the violation, but only for those who act on it.

Homosexuality (a tendency towards SSA) is not, and should not be illegal. Giving into the disordered temptation should be.

 

[katherine2]

Let’s have a little review here.

Brad posts:

But is lying ok for Catholics? Who is suggesting that people that engage in homosexual acts should have their livelihood taken away or be put in jail? Not any Catholics I know.

Fix then posts:

Sodomy should be illegal.

Ok. we have at least one Catholic who suggests that people engaged in homosexual acts (sodomy) should be put in jail.

Brendan then posts:

Like any crime against natural law, civil punishements are appropriate for those who are inclined towards the violation, but only for those who act on it.

Homosexuality (a tendency towards SSA) is not, and should not be illegal. Giving into the disordered temptation should be.

Okay, now the count is two.

Gee, Brad. before you make accusations of “the fear and smear mentality of liberals”, you need to get your own confederates with your program. They spoke their mind and betrayed you. Two of them within four hours. Didn’t take long, did it?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Social Justice becomes irrelivant if you are not allowed to be born.God Bless from us Catholics who pay attention and take care of both!

 

[Brendan]

Katherine,

You still didn’t answer my question.

We currently jail prostitutes and their johns.

Should Prostitution be legal? Yes or No?

 

[ck911]

twocinc:

It seems there is a lot of conversation about individual moral issues like gay marriage, contraception, etc, especially after the recent election. Although I am not Catholic, I am Christian and when I vote, debate, take political action, I base my action first and foremost on a concern for social justice, i.e. preventing/ending/mitigating human suffering and restoring human diginity. Jesus said that the greatest commandments were essentially, 1) love God and 2) love other people, and he commited himself to feeding hungry people and communing with the outcast: prostitutes, tax collectors, the diseased, and the poor. My actions have to reflect that agenda.

For example, there was no way I could vote for an administration that presided over the war in Iraq, the abuses at Abu Ghraib and Guantanemo Bay, and the gutting of numerous social programs that help struggling people stay afloat in this country. For me, these things far outweigh the administration’s firm stance against gay marriage, stem cell research, and even lip-service opposition to abortion.

What do you think?

I think you’re misimformed. Do you really believe that God would want Saddam Hussein in power killing another 300,000 of his people. That God wanted women to continue to get their heads chopped off in Afghanistan. Abu Ghraib was just a bunch of wackos with no sense of right and wrong. Guantanamo isn’t torture. They make them stay up late and use psycological warfare to get information out of them so that they can uncover plots used to attack us here at home. Regarding social programs, Bush has yet to veto a spending bill. I think he spends too much.

 

[goravens]

twocinc:

It seems there is a lot of conversation about individual moral issues like gay marriage, contraception, etc, especially after the recent election. Although I am not Catholic, I am Christian and when I vote, debate, take political action, I base my action first and foremost on a concern for social justice, i.e. preventing/ending/mitigating human suffering and restoring human diginity. Jesus said that the greatest commandments were essentially, 1) love God and 2) love other people, and he commited himself to feeding hungry people and communing with the outcast: prostitutes, tax collectors, the diseased, and the poor. My actions have to reflect that agenda.

For example, there was no way I could vote for an administration that presided over the war in Iraq, the abuses at Abu Ghraib and Guantanemo Bay, and the gutting of numerous social programs that help struggling people stay afloat in this country. For me, these things far outweigh the administration’s firm stance against gay marriage, stem cell research, and even lip-service opposition to abortion.

What do you think?

Hi,
I just wanted to let you know that I deeply feel your struggle with this. I’ve long felt passionate on social justice issues - living the beatitudes and works of mercy. It does seem to me that at times, those in the pro-life movement focus soley on abortion/contraception, etc. And don’t get me wrong, that’s very good and important - we’re talking about human lives being taken without a chance or even a voice. But at the same time, so many are dying in this world from poverty, hunger, homelesness that I don’t think the two can be separated. For me, being pro-life means incorporating all this together. And I think that’s what Jesus would have done too. Many will say to protect life from conception to death, but usually more outreach and actual apostolate emphasis is placed on the conception and being born part. And maybe that’s okay; no one person can do everything and fight for everything. But we desperately need more devout, faithful, orthodox Catholics standing up for the whole gamut of pro-life issues.

That being said, there’s not a political candidate that endorses everything I hope to espouse, so voting is tricky and difficult.

As a graduate social work student, I don’t necessarily believe that taxing and providing government-run programs is the answer for all of society’s problems. But neither do I think the Republican “trickle-down” theory is effective either. It would be great if everyone gave and shared what they have with one another (charitable giving/private philanthropy) but sadly that’s not the case. And in instances where federal government spending has decreased on social programs, there’s statistically always been a higher incidence of poverty, homelesness, hunger, and so on. Unfortunately private philanthropy does not come close to completeing the gap left between it and federal programs. There are no easy answers in this, except to pray that people’s hearts will be changed and to work for justice and life for all people.

 

[Lisa_N]

goravens:

But we desperately need more devout, faithful, orthodox Catholics standing up for the whole gamut of pro-life issues.

As a graduate social work student, I don’t necessarily believe that taxing and providing government-run programs is the answer for all of society’s problems. But neither do I think the Republican “trickle-down” theory is effective either. It would be great if everyone gave and shared what they have with one another (charitable giving/private philanthropy) but sadly that’s not the case. And in instances where federal government spending has decreased on social programs, there’s statistically always been a higher incidence of poverty, homelesness, hunger, and so on. Unfortunately private philanthropy does not come close to completeing the gap left between it and federal programs. There are no easy answers in this, except to pray that people’s hearts will be changed and to work for justice and life for all people.

goravens, quite honestly I suspect all of us agonize over these issues. While it seems prolife people are “obsessing” over abortions, understand that at least some of us believe that abortion is not only a problem but a symptom of an underlying sickness in this society. Addressing the needs of one group and ignoring other groups is like treating a disease only after it’s progressed to the stage where it will invariably be fatal.

We would not so casually murder thousands of unborn babies every day IF we believed they were human. But that being said, we dehumanize the poor, the addicted, the incarcerated too. That enables us to walk away from them as well. Until we see everyone as truly a child of God, it makes no more sense to me to pick one group as being worthy of help (the born) and another to be ignored. I truly think the devaluing of human life via abortion leads to the devaluing of other human lives. It all goes together.

Lisa N

 

[Listener]

The person who posted this thread makes a really good point. Some people say that if babies are aborted, there will be no people to provide the social justice for. Well, I say that if you have a leader that ruins the country, there will be no country left to pass a law against abortion. I have heard a lot of people in my parish say that they wish there was such a thing as a “pro-life democrat.” Even though I hated Kerry’s stand on abortion, I was sick when I heard that George Bush won. He wants to privatize Social Security. His latest bright idea is to send bill collectors from private corporations to collect delinquent income taxes and to let those robbers keep 25% of the money! He is spending this country into bankruptcy. I don’t think he cares at all for working people. He wants to deprive them of overtime and to have them work like slaves so he and his super-wealthy friends can live like kings. If he had his way, the sweatshops of the 1800s would be back.

People who don’t think social services are important should remember that the first hospitals were founded by Christians and the first schools were founded by Christians. In other words, Christian countries have social services. Contrast that to a non-Christian country, India, where you have people dying in the streets. Don’t you think that a woman contemplating abortion will think twice about it if she has some hope for food, shelter, and medical care for her child? If you don’t have Medicare and Medicaid, you will have old people dying on the streets. It won’t matter that the Pope says they are supposed to have feeding tubes. There are no feeding tubes on the street!

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

katherine2:

Prudence, come here right now!

This is a common canard of the far right wing.

How we address most of these matter is a question of prudence.

People starving, homeless, etc. is inherently evil.

I can disagree with the right wing that people should be put in jail or have their mean of livilihood taken away from them cause of the evil of homosexuality and still be a faithful Catholic.

Show me either in the bible, or in the catechism where poverity is defined as inherently evil? Poverty, in Old Testament usage, is a curse by God for disobedience. God cannot inflict people with inherently evil action or consequences, that itself would make God evil.

 

[Trelow]

It is not the job of any government to do for the people what the people can do themselves. To do so undermines the dignity of the human person. For any government to try step in and do these things (Beatitudes) is acting out of order, they are taking away the rights and responsibility of each individual person and the people as a whole to act in accordance to Christ’s teaching. It is an insult and disgrace.

 

[fix]

katherine2:

Let’s have a little review here.

Brad posts:
Fix then posts:

Ok. we have at least one Catholic who suggests that people engaged in homosexual acts (sodomy) should be put in jail.

Brendan then posts:

Okay, now the count is two.

Gee, Brad. before you make accusations of “the fear and smear mentality of liberals”, you need to get your own confederates with your program. They spoke their mind and betrayed you. Two of them within four hours. Didn’t take long, did it?

Only in very recent times would anyone conclude sodomy should not be illegal. Many of our consciences have been dulled to the seriousness of such a vile act. As I posted we need a muti faceted approach to reversing the death culture. Penalizing perversion is one part of it. Keep in mind no one has said those with SSAD need to be penalized, only the behavior.

 

[fix]

Listener:

The person who posted this thread makes a really good point. Some people say that if babies are aborted, there will be no people to provide the social justice for. Well, I say that if you have a leader that ruins the country, there will be no country left to pass a law against abortion. I have heard a lot of people in my parish say that they wish there was such a thing as a “pro-life democrat.” Even though I hated Kerry’s stand on abortion, I was sick when I heard that George Bush won. He wants to privatize Social Security. His latest bright idea is to send bill collectors from private corporations to collect delinquent income taxes and to let those robbers keep 25% of the money! He is spending this country into bankruptcy. I don’t think he cares at all for working people. He wants to deprive them of overtime and to have them work like slaves so he and his super-wealthy friends can live like kings. If he had his way, the sweatshops of the 1800s would be back.

People who don’t think social services are important should remember that the first hospitals were founded by Christians and the first schools were founded by Christians. In other words, Christian countries have social services. Contrast that to a non-Christian country, India, where you have people dying in the streets. Don’t you think that a woman contemplating abortion will think twice about it if she has some hope for food, shelter, and medical care for her child? If you don’t have Medicare and Medicaid, you will have old people dying on the streets. It won’t matter that the Pope says they are supposed to have feeding tubes. There are no feeding tubes on the street!

No one has said deserving people should not get material help. What some are saying is that the way that help is delivered can and should be debated. You set up a false choice. Most of the women in the USA having abortions are not poor. They have access to financial resources. The poverty of our generation is a psychological poverty. We are starving for the truth. Instead of being fed with the truths of salvation we get secular social work programs which are not enough.

We need to do corporal works of mercy and teach the moral law. They can’t be separated. You can have all the secular governemnt socialistic programs on earth and not stop poverty or abortion.

 

[Trelow]

Besides we will never stop poverty, it’s a blessing.
Read the Beatitudes again.

Blessed are…
Blessed are…
Blessed are…

NOT

Accursed are…
Accursed are…
Accursed are…

 

[Lisa_N]

Listener:

His latest bright idea is to send bill collectors from private corporations to collect delinquent income taxes and to let those robbers keep 25% of the money! He is spending this country into bankruptcy. I don’t think he cares at all for working people. He wants to deprive them of overtime and to have them work like slaves so he and his super-wealthy friends can live like kings. If he had his way, the sweatshops of the 1800s would be back.

People who don’t think social services are important should remember that the first hospitals were founded by Christians and the first schools were founded by Christians. In other words, Christian countries have social services. Contrast that to a non-Christian country, India, where you have people dying in the streets. Don’t you think that a woman contemplating abortion will think twice about it if she has some hope for food, shelter, and medical care for her child? If you don’t have Medicare and Medicaid, you will have old people dying on the streets. It won’t matter that the Pope says they are supposed to have feeding tubes. There are no feeding tubes on the street!

Good heavenly days, WHERE did you come up with this information? No wonder you were unhappy about President Bush being elected if you are basing that dismay on falsehoods.

OK on the tax collector situation, why not use private corporations to collect delinquent taxes? The IRS is full of administrative and clerical types not bill collectors. We have a business that occasionally uses a collection agency because they are a lot better at what they do than we are. Frankly there are some people who won’t pay their bills, whether the bill is for the doctor who saved their life (our situation) or Uncle Sam. The reality is that deadbeats who DONT pay taxes penalize all of us honest people who do pay. That a private company gets 25% is actually a low percentage. Most debt collectors get 40-50%. Have you heard the saying part of something is better than all of nothing? I’d be very happy to hear that deadbeats are being compelled to pay taxes like the rest of us.

The OT laws do NOT apply to working folks unless they are making six figures and I just don’t know too many who are making this kind of money. This has magically morphed into the ridiculous assumption that some poor ironworker will be held in servitude. Please get some information regarding this rule before making such outrageous comments. And what POSSIBLE evidence do you have that President Bush would like sweatshops to return? Making wild accusations like this devalues your entire argument.

As to medical care, agreed that hospitals and other social services have long been the provence of charities, and most often religious charities. One thing Pres Bush has done with his faith based inititiatives is to acknowledge this contribution and acknowlege that faith based groups are often MORE efficient and effective than private groups and thus should be able to tap into government funding. What’s wrong with that?

Your abortion comment is also way off the mark. Seventy five percent of abortions are done for “convenience” not for reasons of desperation and poverty. Again, please do some research before making outrageous statements.

As to getting rid of Medicare and Medicaid, what are you talking about? Has this been proposed while we were all snoozing?

Yikes I feel bad for you living in such a state of fear and apprehension. All will be well. Have some faith and do some reading. You’ll feel better.

LIsa N

 

[buffalo]

goravens:

Hi,

It would be great if everyone gave and shared what they have with one another (charitable giving/private philanthropy) but sadly that’s not the case. And in instances where federal government spending has decreased on social programs, there’s statistically always been a higher incidence of poverty, homelesness, hunger, and so on. Unfortunately private philanthropy does not come close to completeing the gap left between it and federal programs. There are no easy answers in this, except to pray that people’s hearts will be changed and to work for justice and life for all people.

Individual greed is the issue here. We would need NO government programs if everyone would give from their heart to help others. The government confiscating your money should not make you feel good that you have helped the poor. The real question is would you have given had they not took? That is where the complete answer lies. Always look to the heart and the root of the problem and let’s elimate the band aid approaches.

 

[buffalo]

Listener:

The person who posted this thread makes a really good point. Some people say that if babies are aborted, there will be no people to provide the social justice for. Well, I say that if you have a leader that ruins the country, there will be no country left to pass a law against abortion. I have heard a lot of people in my parish say that they wish there was such a thing as a “pro-life democrat.” Even though I hated Kerry’s stand on abortion, I was sick when I heard that George Bush won. He wants to privatize Social Security. His latest bright idea is to send bill collectors from private corporations to collect delinquent income taxes and to let those robbers keep 25% of the money! He is spending this country into bankruptcy. I don’t think he cares at all for working people. He wants to deprive them of overtime and to have them work like slaves so he and his super-wealthy friends can live like kings. If he had his way, the sweatshops of the 1800s would be back.

People who don’t think social services are important should remember that the first hospitals were founded by Christians and the first schools were founded by Christians. In other words, Christian countries have social services. Contrast that to a non-Christian country, India, where you have people dying in the streets. Don’t you think that a woman contemplating abortion will think twice about it if she has some hope for food, shelter, and medical care for her child? If you don’t have Medicare and Medicaid, you will have old people dying on the streets. It won’t matter that the Pope says they are supposed to have feeding tubes. There are no feeding tubes on the street!

The first Christian hopitals were not government funded. India is quite a different story as their religion and belief in incarnation allows them to ignore the downtrodden as they will come back with a better life. You cannot compare India and the US.

What is wrong with privatizing a part of Social Security? Deficit spending has been going on since Kennedy. we are not yet bankrupt. Some economists even support it. The real question is what % of the GDP it is?

 

[Scott_Waddell]

katherine2:

Prudence, come here right now!

This is a common canard of the far right wing.

How we address most of these matter is a question of prudence.

People starving, homeless, etc. is inherently evil.

I can disagree with the right wing that people should be put in jail or have their mean of livilihood taken away from them cause of the evil of homosexuality and still be a faithful Catholic.

I had trouble discerning if this was a sacrastic response or not. Could you elaborate more on the the “right-wing canard”?

People starving, homeless, etc. is inherently evil.

Actually, if someone diliberately starved someone, that would be inherently evil. If someone tossed one out of their house, that would not be inherently evil, but only evil if it was done unjustly. No one is actively calling for deliberately starving people or throwing them out of their homes. If you find someone who is, let me know and I will join you in speaking out. There ARE people however actively calling for the normalization of evil sexual perversity. Big difference.

Scott

P.S. From reading further posts, let me put it as a question: If we agree that homosexual acts are inherently evil, wouldn’t it be a matter of prudence whether we call for the recriminalization of sodomy?

Scott

 

[katherine2]

Scott Waddell:

If we agree that homosexual acts are inherently evil, wouldn’t it be a matter of prudence whether we call for the recriminalization of sodomy?

Scott

Ask my friend Brad about that. When I raised that issue he posted that I was raising a red herring because no Catholic would ever call for such a thing. Never have my right wing friends rallied so quickly to prove me correct. Thank you all.

 

[fix]

katherine2:

Ask my friend Brad about that. When I raised that issue he posted that I was raising a red herring because no Catholic would ever call for such a thing. Never have my right wing friends rallied so quickly to prove me correct. Thank you all.

It is a matter of prudence. In my judgment they should be illegal.