P
Protestant101
Guest
Do you even know what your own Catechism says re changing “the day of worship?” You are fighting your own doctrines!
- Status
po18guy
Well-known member
Nice try.Do you even know what your own Catechism says re changing “the day of worship?” You are fighting your own doctrines!
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Hey Protestant101, who are you claiming changed the sabbath day? I am confused by the posts. When the temple of God in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. The temple worship ceased. The christians now began to break bread and communion on Sunday’s which the apostles call the Lord’s day. Although now that the temple was destroyed, the liturgy of the word which they recited now combined with the liturgy of the Eucharist on Sunday, and have continued ever since the apostles.Do you even know what your own Catechism says re changing “the day of worship?” You are fighting your own doctrines!
Catholics celebrate the Lord’s day on Sunday, and offer sacrifices and offerings daily from sun up to sun down according to the fulfilled prophecies of Malachi. The new temple of God is now in Jesus Christ and his blessed sacrament where he is present to his body the Catholic church.
Tell me do you offer a perfect sacrifice to God in the form of a body and blood according to the Perpetual of law of God? The Catholic church continues the old covenant fulfilled in Jesus, the Catholic church is the fulfillment of the old covenant laws all of them, not just one, because in the one Sabbath law, Jesus is lord of the Sabbath.
A
Angelos
Guest
Could you please show me one Bible verse which says that the commandment of keeping the Sabbath was given to Adam and the other patriarchs before Exodus? The Bible I have and read rebuts your assertion by saying that the Ten Commandments were given to Israel through Moses.
Y
Yerusalyim
Guest
Protestant 101,
Sorry, but the absolute gibberish you write here doesn’t change anything. All you have to do is go to the 1st Commandment of the decalogue to prove that your point is incorrect.
It begins this way:
This CLEARLY SHOWS that the Covenant being established is between God and ISRAEL…because God didn’t bring the Gentiles out of slavery in Egypt.
This is prefaced in the 19th Chapter of Exodus where God tells Moses:
So CLEARLY, the 10 Commandments, and all the rest of the Commandments found in Exodus, were part of God’s Covenant with the JEWS. Show me God commanding GENTILES to observe the Sabbath and I will listen to the arguement.
P
Protestant101
Guest
You have been trying to deny that the Catholic Church has changed the day of worship. I wonder if this will convince you:
**
The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ. - from the CCC
Who did this “replacement?”**
P
Protestant101
Guest
So God wants the Jews to do different than the Gentiles today? That seems pretty mixed up. Why wouldn’t God want the same thing for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.
Actually, Ex.20:2 is not one of the ten commandments, it is a preface to all ten, for all ten speak in one way or another about the theme of redemption in Christ. The Sabbath commandment is the only one which specifically mentions creation and the Creator, which predates the Exodus from Egypt by a long shot. As we know, redemption has been necessary right from Eden, and the Sabbath commandment is God’s sign of His Creatorship, and therefore, His sole right to being our Redeemer.
If you want to try and dismiss one commandment with all your “covenant twistings” then you have to dismiss all ten of them; and yes, you have a right to do this, but your philosophy on the Sabbath is just that - a denominational philosophy.
T
Ted_in_Charlott
Guest
And let’s not every forget Jesus established a Church. The Catholic Church, not one of the thousands of denominations that are not Catholic. The leaders of the Catholic Church, it’s first Bishops (Apostles) wrote much of the new testament and assembled the whole Bible. The Church had traditions on the Lord’s Day well before the final Bible was assembled.
I
inJESUS
Guest
Y
Yerusalyim
Guest
Had God wanted the same from Jews and Gentiles he would have established his covenant WITH ALL PEOPLE. Instead, he established His Covenant with the people of Israel.
I don’t “dismiss” the 613 Commandments (of which the 10 are a part), however, these commandments establish the covenant between God and Israel, not God and all mankind. You, on the otherhand, seem to want to obey this ONE commandment, and ignore the other 612. Paul writes something about those who, seeking to justify themselves by observance of the Law will be judged by it. So, if you want to observe the Sabbath Commandment, then observe ALL the Commandments…otherwise, in breaking just one, you are guilty of them all…or so Paul tells us.
What you’re attempting to do is read that one commandment on observing the Sabbath in ISOLATION from all that comes before it. That’s proof texting at it’s worse and worthy of a Jehovah’s Witness. THE CONTEXT is that God was establishing His covenant with Israel…as such, those commandments listed afterwards are the Covenant by which he Commands ISRAEL to obedience. Ergo, these commandments are binding ONLY upon those in the Covenant.
God did finally establish His Covenant with ALL people through Christ, but observance of the 613 Commandments was not part of it, instead, Gentiles fulfill the requirements of the Covenant by observing only two of them, Loving God and Loving Neighbor.
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Dear Protestant101,
Please let me know the texts in the NT where Jesus commands his followers to “remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy”. In looking at what he commands his followers to do, the fourth commandment of the decalogue is noticebly absent, even though Jesus kept the sabbath. The other commandments are not noticebly absent. As a former SDA in the process of joining the Catholic Church, this was perhaps my major obstacle in need of resolution. I have done concordance searches on “seventh day” and “sabbath” in the NT, and it is always interesting to read Jesus’ comments regarding the sabbath to those accusing him of breaking it.
There is no question that the fouth commandment was the sign between God and his chosen people, those led out of Egypt. The sign constantly revealing and teaching and reminding his people that he was their God, the Creator, and they were his people, the created and saved. He commands them to REMEMBER, which is neccessary for many reasons, not the least of which is for a successful covenant.
In the NT I did a concordance search for “remember” and only in one situation did I find Jesus “commanding” his followers to remember, and that was at the last supper when preparing to fulfill the promises and convenants leading up to his act of salvation for mankind on the cross. In the Lord’s Supper he instituted the new “sign” of his new covenant with those he leads out of the bondage of sin and death and into the promised land of eternal life in communion with God (in the Lord’s Supper we receive Jesus’ body, blood, soul, and divinity into our bodies; Jesus receives our bodies into His Body, and all believers become One Body…the church with Jesus as the head). This new covenant is between Jesus, God the Son, who is God the Creator, and the people he creates, re-creates, and saves…not just Jews, but Gentiles, and all who accept the gift of Jesus’ sacrificial offering, and become heirs to the promise (Galatians 3:26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise). The resurrection was the most momentous event in all of human history, the event which makes our salvation possible, certain, sure, and guaranteed! To celebrate that day seems unavoidable for those who believe and enter into the new covenant. Yet Sunday is not the sign of the New Covenant.
The New Covenant:
Hebrews 8:6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:
“The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
The Sign of The New Covenant:
He said in Matthew 26:26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Luke 22:19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
God bless all
S
Sepharad
Guest
My husband converted to Orthodox Judaism from Seventh-Day Adventism (he was raised Baptist, then became SDA, then became Jewish.)
I have studied many religions in my life, and find there is some truth in all of them to an extent. I believe we can all learn from each other in this regard.
One thing I learned from my husband from his SDA days, was what his then-pastor had once said: the reason why Satan fights so hard against the 7th day Sabbath is because the commandment to keep it is the only one of the 10 Commandments which described the True God (“created the world in six days and rested on the seventh”.)
I have studied many religions in my life, and find there is some truth in all of them to an extent. I believe we can all learn from each other in this regard.
One thing I learned from my husband from his SDA days, was what his then-pastor had once said: the reason why Satan fights so hard against the 7th day Sabbath is because the commandment to keep it is the only one of the 10 Commandments which described the True God (“created the world in six days and rested on the seventh”.)
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
**Protestant101 lets get this straight ok; you have been misinformed about this theory of changing the Sabbath. The Catholic church did not change the Sabbath. What you wrongly imply is the word Change for “replace”. You say change; There is a different in meaning here that you perhaps do not understand being that you pretend to be Jewish honoring a Sabbath that Jesus Lords over.
The Catholic church follows apostolic Tradition that, upon the destruction of the temple no more Sabbath worship in the temple.Lets deal with what you call change. The Sabbath 7th day, or saturday rest does not change and the Catholic church has not changed what is written, only God can. What the apostles do and what the Lord of the Sabbath did, was enter both Jew and Gentile into the new covenant.
Now here comes the “replacement” not any change to the Sabbath. We believe Jesus is God incarnate. The Sabbath belongs to God. God has the power to establish other laws as in the old testament. Where the Pharisees added new laws to the detriment of the honour of God and the welfare of his people.
So then if Jesus raises us in a new creation, what is replaced? The ceremonials of the sabbath because there is no more temple to conduct them, are replaced with Sunday on the day of the Lord who resurrected from the dead from the Law. Jesus instituted this new ceremonial Eucharistic celebration in his body and blood to save you and I.
This is the replacement the cathechism of the Catholic church is speaking about the ceremonials of sacrificing unto God, the Sabbath was not changed for those under the law. The Catholic church does not even use the word change you are the one that puts words to the change of their meaning according to your prejudices toward the body of Jesus Christ.
The Catholic church uses the word “replace” the ceremonials to be practiced on the new 8th day when God reveals himself to his people: please see Leviticus chapter 9 it is there for you to see. God reveals himself on the 8th day not the sabbath day, this is the new day the lord has made and let us be glad and rejoice in it.
Try reading the catechism again without prejudices, and allow the holy things of God to be revealed to you.
Remember the new temple of God is Jesus Christ, there is no more temple of the old covenant worship. The only worship God receives is in Spirit and Truth, through the body and blood of Jesus who has redeemed all once and for all.
p.s You dont honor the Sabbath because you have no priest, no temple, no valid sacrifice to offer God in the form of a body and blood. Catholics honor the lord of the Sabbath in the true rest of God in himself when we consume his sacrificial body, blood soul and divinity in the Eucharist, now this is old covenant sabbath rest fulfilled, when it is raised from the level of creation to the heights of eternity.
Peace be with you**
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Thank you Gabriel of 12! You have helped me to better understand and clarify my thoughts regarding this!!
God bless all!!!
A
Angelos
Guest
The commandment to keep Sabbath does not necessarily describe the true God, for the account of creation in Genesis is full of literary figures likening God to men through the purely human conceptualization of times and seasons. Jesus also emphasised this when He said “Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath”
We all know that the true God does not need to rest in reality since He never gets tired. . In the Book of Genesis God only implies that men should rest and keep at least one day to themselves by figuratively stating that He did likewise.
po18guy
Well-known member
It was the Lord God through Jesus Christ, who chose to rise on the first day, and the Apostles, in observance of this, who changed the day. The evil Catholic church did not yet exist, right? The early church was pure, undefiled and had not yet experienced the “Roman takeover”.
S
Sepharad
Guest
If Jesus did rise from the dead, maybe he chose Sunday because he wanted to rest in honor of the Sabbath, and so, rose on the first day of the week (which for Jews is the first working day of the week) instead?
So you see, him supposedly rising on Sunday does not say to everyone what you think it does.
po18guy
Well-known member
Duly noted. Now, if you could just convince 101 that he should keep the remainder of the Mosaic law…If Jesus did rise from the dead, maybe he chose Sunday because he wanted to rest in honor of the Sabbath, and so, rose on the first day of the week (which for Jews is the first working day of the week) instead?
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Your welcome Patrick Murebil, Protestant 101 will not engage me, so I just offer my 2 cents, whenever he misquotes the Catholic church. And to offer insights to what the Catholic church has taught me to others, I love sharing Jesus to whom ever will listen. God bless you, and peace be with you.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
That is an interesting perspective; Catholics believe Jesus fulfilled the Law and the prophets. And rested indeed on the Sabbath, because he is Lord of the Sabbath. But in his rest, he died, thereby, fulfulling what the covenant laws of God called for when man breaks the covenant with God, DEATH. God took on flesh himself, and took on all the curses of the Law, whipping, slappings, kickings, beatings etc for us and paid the penalty of the Law that demanded a life to suffice the Law of God. This Jesus did with his body and blood, lifted up on a post, this sufficed the curses.If Jesus did rise from the dead, maybe he chose Sunday because he wanted to rest in honor of the Sabbath, and so, rose on the first day of the week (which for Jews is the first working day of the week) instead?
Now If God fulfilled his Law and prophecies through his divined Son Jesus. Jesus resurrected on the 8th day (see leviticus 9) when God reveals himself, and puts to death those who profane him on the 8th day, the first day of creation, thus entering humanity into a new and everlasting covenant in his body and blood sacrifice he paid. Now when ever there is a new priesthood, there is a change of the covenant law. Not that God changes, Jesus fulfilled the Law and paid the penalty for the Law of God.
Jesus ushered us into a new covenant with God himself, to have eternal rest in God, this is the continued creation week from the Sabbath 7th day into an 8th day where God reveals himself. This is the day when God has taken away our sins in a single day. This is the day when God has made us a new creation. A new creatioin because Jesus rose on first day of creation.
And Yes, this is the first working day for all christians, to offer sacrifice to God in form of body and blood on the altar, and consume the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, repent of our sins. and Mass = go out, and proclaim Jesus lives, and his gospel to all the nations. Catholics find their rest in God intimately in God himself, for we consume his body and blood, Mass sends us out to work for the Lord in peace and in love.
Peace be with you
- Status