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Angelos
Guest
Does God in the Bible ask us to add new books to the Old Testament? Where does God authorise the writings of the New Testament? Where does God say that the word Bible refers to both the Old and New Testament?
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Angelos
Guest
The Church existed prior to the New Testament canon. Jesus promised to build a Church and gave authority to His apostles, not to a book. This Protestant tenet of Sola Scriptura is apparently influenced by the Islamic teaching about the Koran.
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Yerusalyim
Guest
The Sabbath runs from Sundown on Friday until after Sundown on Saturday, this is not in dispute.
HOWEVER, Sabbath observence was given to the Jews in the Mosaic law and was NOT given to the Gentiles. Nowhere does the Noahide Covenant mention sabbath observance.
Gentile Christians, therefore, worship on the Lord’s day, but are not required to observe the sabbath…or any of the other 613 Commandments.
HOWEVER, Sabbath observence was given to the Jews in the Mosaic law and was NOT given to the Gentiles. Nowhere does the Noahide Covenant mention sabbath observance.
Gentile Christians, therefore, worship on the Lord’s day, but are not required to observe the sabbath…or any of the other 613 Commandments.
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inJESUS
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planten
Guest
** Angelos, your Sun day is a good excuse to do away with the sabbath. Like you have abolished all other symbols of the life of Jesus, his way of living, eating, circumcising, worshipping, praying, preaching and observing the law of Moses, his high morale, you have abondoned all of that. So why not get rid of the Sabbath too. That is just a minor point in comaprison with the rest of the important things.**Did I claim that my description was taken from a verse in the New Testament?
Where in the Bible do you read that Jesus asked His disciples to record His Gospel in four different writings? Where in the Bible do you read that Jesus asked His disciples to read the four Gospels and other books of the New Testament when they come together to worship?
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Angelos
Guest
The Mosaic Law was given to Israel, NOT to the Gentiles. Since Jesus, as the Lord and Savior of all, is a light to the Gentiles, we believers in Christ do not have to observe the Mosaic Law.
Your Koran also claims that some of Jesus’ teachings abolished the precepts of the Mosaic Law about impure food.
Where is written in your scripture that Christians are obliged to observe the Mosaic Law in the same way as Jews do?
Why do you Muslims gather for weekly worship on Fridays instead of keeping the Sabbath? Who authorised you to change the day of rest?
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Protestant101
Guest
Unfortunately; you are wrong. If you are talking about The Ten Commandments, then you will not be able to show where your’s or my Bible calls it “The Mosaic Law.”
The fourth commandment, in particular, shows us the nature of these Ten Commandment Laws when it says: “The Sabbath OF THE LORD THY GOD.” It is never called “The Sabbath of Moses,” or “The Jewish Sabbath.”
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Angelos
Guest
The Ten Commandments were given to Israel through MOSES. This makes them part of the Mosaic Law too!
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Hesychios
Guest
bpbasilphx and Angelos both gave simple and adequate replies to this.
Now what we call Sunday is the eight day, quite a trick in a seven day week! But that just refers to the resurrection, which is (in a sense) outside of time. It occupies the place of the first day in most calendars.
One really should examine how the early Christians sanctified time, ever day there was time set aside for prayer, often at “the turn of the watch” (approximately every three hours in Roman times) and this seems to have included the reciting of psalms and hymns. Apostolic Christians still have an opportunity to do this, it is called the Liturgy of the Hours by Latin Catholics but it is also practiced by Orthodox. Once every week (on resurrection day) there was, added to the prayer service, the Eucharistic (Thanksgiving) gathering, so we can say that is the climax of the weekly cycle.
Why do we worship on a Sunday? As has been indicated already here, that IS the day of the week that Jesus rose from the dead! He did not Rise on the Sabbath.
So no, Sunday is not the Sabbath day. The Jews who became followers of Jesus of Nazareth seem to have continued to observe the Sabbath, the Gentiles who became followers of Jesus of Nazareth may or may not have, but they were definitely not welcome in the temple of Jerusalem, and increasingly over time were excluded from visiting the synagogues (along with the Jewish followers of Jesus, who were also prevented as hostility increased).
Reading Paul, we know that there was a storm over the a means by which Gentiles would be accepted into the Christian fellowship. Many Jewish Christians sought to convert these Gentiles into the Jewish community as a condition of their membership but Paul seems to have understood that the command to make disciples of all nations was not an instruction to make Jews out of the entire world population, but to bring the knowledge of and faith in the One True God to all the different peoples of the earth.
Thus, according to his (Paul’s) understanding these non-Jewish people were not bound by the Mosaic Law because they were still not Jews (and this was not a failing on their part), they were “other kinds” of people in Christ. The Jewish converts to Christianity were still free to observe the Sabbath at that time, something Paul did himself (essentially refraining from efforts and engaging in prayer, visiting the temple or synagogues when possible), completing or ending that with a Eucharistic meal on Sunday ( after sundown Saturday night or very early in the morning), which was shared by the Gentile converts to the Christian community as well.
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Michael*
Now what we call Sunday is the eight day, quite a trick in a seven day week! But that just refers to the resurrection, which is (in a sense) outside of time. It occupies the place of the first day in most calendars.
One really should examine how the early Christians sanctified time, ever day there was time set aside for prayer, often at “the turn of the watch” (approximately every three hours in Roman times) and this seems to have included the reciting of psalms and hymns. Apostolic Christians still have an opportunity to do this, it is called the Liturgy of the Hours by Latin Catholics but it is also practiced by Orthodox. Once every week (on resurrection day) there was, added to the prayer service, the Eucharistic (Thanksgiving) gathering, so we can say that is the climax of the weekly cycle.
Why do we worship on a Sunday? As has been indicated already here, that IS the day of the week that Jesus rose from the dead! He did not Rise on the Sabbath.
So no, Sunday is not the Sabbath day. The Jews who became followers of Jesus of Nazareth seem to have continued to observe the Sabbath, the Gentiles who became followers of Jesus of Nazareth may or may not have, but they were definitely not welcome in the temple of Jerusalem, and increasingly over time were excluded from visiting the synagogues (along with the Jewish followers of Jesus, who were also prevented as hostility increased).
Reading Paul, we know that there was a storm over the a means by which Gentiles would be accepted into the Christian fellowship. Many Jewish Christians sought to convert these Gentiles into the Jewish community as a condition of their membership but Paul seems to have understood that the command to make disciples of all nations was not an instruction to make Jews out of the entire world population, but to bring the knowledge of and faith in the One True God to all the different peoples of the earth.
Thus, according to his (Paul’s) understanding these non-Jewish people were not bound by the Mosaic Law because they were still not Jews (and this was not a failing on their part), they were “other kinds” of people in Christ. The Jewish converts to Christianity were still free to observe the Sabbath at that time, something Paul did himself (essentially refraining from efforts and engaging in prayer, visiting the temple or synagogues when possible), completing or ending that with a Eucharistic meal on Sunday ( after sundown Saturday night or very early in the morning), which was shared by the Gentile converts to the Christian community as well.
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Michael*
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inJESUS
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planten
Guest
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It is being told that the Mosaic law was for the Jews and not for the gentiles. That is funny. Jesus was also for the Jews and not for the gentiles. His early life (except one sentence somewhere) was a clear proof that jesus was not for the gentiles. he even said that it was not fit to give the bread of the children to the dogs.
So, to Jesus, the gentiles were like the dogs. Jesus said that not a dot of the Mosaic law will be wiped out or cancelled. To whom he was addressing?? That was his followers. So the christians as true followers of Jesus should respect his words and should take up their life style according to the Ten Commandments. There is no running away from that under any pretext.
Some one has misled and highjacked the teachings of Jesus in most matters.**
It is being told that the Mosaic law was for the Jews and not for the gentiles. That is funny. Jesus was also for the Jews and not for the gentiles. His early life (except one sentence somewhere) was a clear proof that jesus was not for the gentiles. he even said that it was not fit to give the bread of the children to the dogs.
So, to Jesus, the gentiles were like the dogs. Jesus said that not a dot of the Mosaic law will be wiped out or cancelled. To whom he was addressing?? That was his followers. So the christians as true followers of Jesus should respect his words and should take up their life style according to the Ten Commandments. There is no running away from that under any pretext.
Some one has misled and highjacked the teachings of Jesus in most matters.**
po18guy
Well-known member
You’re quoting Ellen, the “SDA Pope”, again. Please explain how certain Fundamentalists and Evangelicals, some of whom HATE the Catholic church, have “bowed down”. They still worship on the day God Himself chose to raise Christ. I know the SDA does basically nothing on Easter. Unusual! Just another day?
(in best Ronald Reagan voice) “Well, there he goes again” Christ gave the Apostles the power to bind and loose. “Whatever you hold bound on earth (the Lord’s day) is bound in Heaven” Christ knew what the Apostles would do with that power before he gave it to them. It almost sounds like you are questioning Christ’s judgment here. I said almost.
Excuse me, but the bible is inspired. Jesus Christ is Divine, and He is the Word. A fraction of His words are in the bible, so his fulness is clearly found elsewhere. Much of what you say is based on the “visions” of Ellen Gould White. You are betting your soul on her “authority”.
Speaking of Rome, I think you need a vacation there for some good pasta and vino. Who knows? it could loosen you up a little.
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Hesychios
Guest
You attribute far, far too much to Rome here. And of course, some people will let you get away with that without a peep, because they would just as soon have you believe it and repeat it.
Search and I bet you won’t find any decrees from Rome dictating Sunday worship. That certainly was going on before Peter or Paul reached the city.
Do not mistake the Sabbath for Resurrection Day. Read your history, Christians gathered after the Sabbath, literally after sundown on Saturday or early the next morning, for the Thanksgiving meal.
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inJESUS
Guest
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Yerusalyim
Guest
The Mosaic Law consists of the 613 Commandments found in scripture, of which the 10 Commandments are a part. The Covenant upon which these commandments were instituted was between God and the people of Israel. God’s covenant with the rest of the world is found in the Noahide Covenant…no mention of Sabbath observence is found in this covenant. While we gentile Chrisitans are for sure to draw inspiration fromt he 613 we are not bound to their observence. We fulfill the Law by observing the two “Great Commandments” …that of loving God and loving neighbor.
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Angelos
Guest
Could you please quote the Bible verse which says that Jesus’ Gospel was only for the Jewish nation?
Through the analogy about children and dogs, Jesus underlined the priority of Jews in salvation as the elected nation of G-d. You somehow ignore the fact that Jesus healed the daughter of that Gentile woman solely because of her faith!
Apparently, the contrast between what Jesus said to that woman and how the woman replied to Jesus’ analogy aimed to highlight the contrast between the response given to Jesus by the Jews (elected) and by the Gentiles. The chosen ones to whom God gave priority turned Him down whereas those who were not chosen raced to embrace God! The dialogue between Jesus and that Gentile believer serves to emphasize this bitter truth. For similar examples of Jesus’ denunciation of the Jewish lack of faith in Him, you should read the contrast derived by Jesus between the folk of Nineveh and Jews.
I hoped you would keep loyal to the principles you posted on another thread (everyone should stop criticizing other religions!) I caught you!
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Protestant101
Guest
LOL; I’d hate to see what your idea of “loosening up” would entail, but yes, I would likely enjoy a trip to Rome.
The way you comment re “the SDA Pope,” is really insulting to your own Pope, you should show him more respect.
I don’t think you have read your own Catechism on this point. It makes a pointed case for how the Church of Rome has indeed changed “the day of worship;” yet did not “change the Sabbath.” There is hardly a Protestant denomination left on earth that does not bow down to this “authority” of the Roman Catholic Church, no matter how much they say they hate it.
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Protestant101
Guest
The “Ten Commandment Law” itself refutes your point here quite well; thereby showing how the Bible is it’s own best Expositor, and how the ten commandments are in fact a separate thing from all the other “laws” you claim are “Mosaic.”
The fourth commandment is the one which tells us specifically, the line of demarcation here: It calls the Sabbath (seventh-day) “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.” It does not call it the Sabbath of the Jews," or “the law of Moses.” “Of the Lord thy God” is the phrase used. It is likewise for all ten of God’s commandments. “Of the Lord thy God.” Not “of Moses.”
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
**This one is for SDA’s and Catholics
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I believe that it may have already been mentioned here that Sunday is the Lord’s day, and Saturday is the sabbath. The question might be what is the difference?
Sabbath = Is the 7th day of the creation week in Genesis, a day of rest from the old creation and written with the 10 commandments of the old covenant laws. Moses and the Jews added over 666 more laws to the ten commandments, 39 more laws to the sabbath specifically. What scripture continues to state is that no one was able to keep the law, thus the curse and wrath of God gets revealed for breaking the covenant of old.
Jesus the Lord of the sabbath including Jesus himself the testator to the Law of the covenant. For these written Laws by God himself are to be fulfilled, one has to die inorder to be free of the Law, because one who has died to the Law, the law no longer has power over him. This Jesus did to free humanity from the covenant that convicted and demanded a life when broken. This God himself provided the sacrifice for all, and once and for all he fulfilled the law and the prophets. So those who are baptised have died to the law that brought death, and are raised from the baptismal waters to live free of the law in Jesus Christ himself.
Those who pretend to honor the Sabbath as a Christian denies the sacrifice of Jesus for his sins and freedom from the law that not even Moses or Aaron was able to keep. If one tries to live by the Law will be judged by the Law, and their Judge will be Moses himself, Not the Merciful Jesus, for Moses killed his own kinsmen for breaking the Law, for in the Law their is no mercy except in Jesus who saves us from death of the law. Their are many laws pertaining to keeping the old covenant sabbath law, for example, no work, no fire, driving your car, cant pick up a stick, you cannot leave your dwelling, not to mention the meals and kosher foods. So for Christians to claim to honor the Sabbath, what are they doing leaving their dwelling to go fellowship, they already dishonored the Sabbath from the get go. To claim to honor the Sabbath, and not honor the laws pertaining to the Sabbath,already puts you in contempt with God, who has placed Moses to dictate the law.
Jesus gave us an example of this, for those who try to honor the sabbath and laws of the old covenant, to which Jesus will die for and fulfil them, and yet try to claim to be a follower of Jesus at the same time. Jesus states; you cannot put new wine (chrisitians who are a new creation in Christ, of the New and everlasting covenant.) into old wineskins (the old covenant). For everyone knows that the old wineskins will burst open (natural law) and the new wine ( spiritual person) will be lost.
As if you did not understand him, Jesus gives us another parable about this old covenant living trying to be lived by a new covenant christian. Jesus states: You cannot tear a new patch of clothing (new born again christian) and sew it on an old garment; if you do, you have ruined the new garment by tearing it out to place it on the old garment which do not match, thus both are lost again.
In summary Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, and the Sabbath was made for man. Christians are no longer of the old garment, they have died in the baptismal waters and arisen a new in Jesus Christ, living in the Spirit of the new covenant, where the law cannot convict those of the Spirit, because these have already died to the flesh. Now those of the flesh, unbaptised are judged according to the law, for these fall under the natural law of the old covenant, and will be judged to see if they keep the law by Moses. Now this is not to say if or when a christian sins, the christian falls back under the law that convicts him to death. But if the Christian confesses his sin, he will be forgiven by the blood of Jesus christ, and is brought back into the kingdom of God where one is in the Spirit, and is freed from the natural law, for the law judges those under the law and cannot judge those in the spirit for these have been purchased by the blood of the lamb.
Do not boast because you claim to keep the law of the sabbath, for you will be judged by the law, and if you find yourself pretending to do so, you deny the body and blood sacrifice Jesus paid for you to be free from the law not stay in it.
It has been said, Sunday is the first day of the first creation week not monday. What is interesting, is that Jesus rested his body in the earth on the sabbath, thereby putting to death the old creation week, or fulfilling it. Resurrected the next day which is called the 8th day Sunday, (a continuous creation day from the original 7th day creation week that ended in his death), which is called the first day. A day that the lord has made, where God says “I will remove all your sin in a single day”.
The true Sabbath is in Jesus Christ, where we rest in him, by consuming his flesh and blood on the day Jesus has made the Lord’s day.
This 8th day is not new, see Leviticus 9…It explains and prefigures on this 8th day not the sabbath, God will reveal himself to his people. Please read, and reflect how Jesus is prefigured in the old covenant.
Peace be with you
po18guy
Well-known member
Are not Ellen Gould White’s writings viewed as ‘inspired’ or ‘lead by the Holy Spirit’? Do her voluminous writings not persist, word for word, to this day? Are her principles not still taught? There are many other parallels I could draw, meaning to slight no one, but indicating that the Catholic church is not the only organization with a leader above leaders, living or not.
Ellen Gould White and her followers, possibly as a practical matter, needed unique doctrines to attract followers in the crazy religious arena of the American 1800s. Did they not believe that, of the Mosaic covenant, the Sabbath must remain the last day of the week? Didi they not blame “Rome” for forcing the Protestants to worship on Sunday? If Rome had so much power and influence, why is there a Protestant church at all - never mind the SDA, if Rome has exerted all of this evil influence? This strikes me as a decidedly curious assertion.
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