why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[happilycatholic]

Hug…

The Apostles never taught that the LAW was only the ceremonial parts of the Mosaic Law… that is what the Adventists teach.

As Catholics we believe that there was one Law in the OT… we are no longer under that law… although its moral precepts (not ceremonial) are now part of the New Covenant. We obey the Moral precepts of the Ten Commandments, not the ceremonial. If the Ten Commandments were still binding on us as a whole law, then we would have to go to Church on Saturday.

What?! This is news to me. We as catholics definitely believe the Commandments are still binding, including the third Commandment. If we don’t go to mass on Sunday and during days of Holy Obligation, it’s a mortal sin! Where did you get this doctrine? It’s not catholic, it’s SDA.

Again, that is how they justify Saturday Worship and how they justify their belief that we set asunder the Commandments. And apparently your belief too since that’s what you’re saying here.

They are not… only their moral precepts, which are part of the New Covenant, and fulfilled in our Sunday worship.

This is the Commandment Law not a “precept”. They are not merely a guide to life. They are Commandments and if we sin against them we are sinning against God! You cannot receive communion if you are under grave sin. How can you consider yourself under grave sin if you consider the Commandments a “precept” and not binding as a whole?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

OK; lets start at the beginning…kind of like Genesis.

Here is our official belief about the Sabbath, as stated by The General Conference:

**

I would like to ask you Patrick, how do you see this statement? Is it fair? Is it accurate? Is it prejudiced? Is it acceptable? What would best describe SDA views, as stated therein, to you? I will allow a few days for other forum members to also answer this question. **

Hi Protestant101, I hope all is well with you and yours!!!

Ok…I’ll go through the Official quote you gave me and share my thoughts to your questions above.

1. The Sabbath:

The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation.

Ok…I believe that.

The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.

Ok…I’m still good with this with the caveat that The Apostolic Church has made it clear that the moral requirements of this commandment are fulfilled on the The Lord’s Day, Sunday.

The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another.

I most definitely agree with this, and would also say that so is worship of God on Sunday, and any other day of the week where God’s people get together to worship and praise God!!!

It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts.

No, I don’t believe this. This is where we part ways in our beliefs. And based on my study of the scriptures and Church history and teachings I would rephrase the above to read as follows:

The Mass and the Eucharist are both symbols and the reality of our redemption in Christ, a sign, a means, and a reality of our sanctification, a response of our allegiance, and a participation in our eternal life in God’s Kingdom, both here on this earth and in heaven. The Mass and the Eucharist are God’s sign, means, and reality of His New Covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance and participation in the Mass and the Eucharist is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts.

That’s just my first shot at rewording that, it may need some work, but I think it is a good start!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

But it is not the day of worship dedicated to our Lord and Savior as He had not come in fulfillment of the Scripture that contained those Commandments.

1. The Sabbath is a memorial to Creation. 2) The Bible sates that baptism by immersion is the Christian symbol of the resurrection–as I noted earlier. 3) The commandments that Christ fulfilled were the ceremonial one’s relating to the sacrifical offerings and to the spring festivals–that’s why we don’t make sacrifices anymore.

 

[SDA2RC]

I do know the doctrine you’re talking about that is why I asked. My question was directed at your beliefs with regard to your comment, not the SDA posters.

Okay, so YOU do believe it to be a sin covered under the 7th commandment?

I’m just clarifying.

Of Course I do… but I do because of the Church. My question to DJ was on what does HE base his belief that incest is covered under that commandment since it no where addresses it. There is a need for the church in the interpretation of the law.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

We obey the Moral precepts of the Ten Commandments, not the ceremonial.

Happily:

In addition to what Brandon has rightly pointed out in the quote above, we must remember that the 10 commandments existed long before they were given to the Israelites at Sinai. The ancient code of Hammurabi which pre-dated Abraham (if I remember correctly), contained the same moral precepts as the 10 commandments. In fact, as is pointed out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, God only gave the Israelites the 10 commandments as a convenience. Why? Because the 10 commandments contain the “natural moral law” which anybody could figure out if they just sat down and thought about it for a while. Clearly Hammurabi and his predecessors did that (Hammurabi’s code was mostly just writing down what was already law).

Now here is a point of interest, the Sumerians and/or the Babylonians considered the seventh day, a bad luck day. They refrained from work on that day because it just wasn’t worth the risk to do anything on it. Mostly they stayed in doors. Sound familiar?

Marsha

 

[djconklin]

My question to DJ was on what does HE base his belief that incest is covered under that commandment since it no where addresses it.

As happily has pointed out to you it is contained in the 7th commandment.

 

[happilycatholic]

Happily:

No, that is not an SDA doctrine.

Marsha

This is a prime example of how my posts have been taken out of context. Whether the Mosaic Law and the Commandments are considered bound in the same Scripture is NOT MY POINT AT ALL. I can read. I know where the Commandments are located in Scripture. If you weren’t SDA, you’d understand my position.

MY POINT IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN REGARDING THE USE OF THE TERM, “GODS LAW” AS USED BY SDAs

And when I explained what I was talking about Brandon chimed in and told me they were one and the same. I guess he was trying to call to mind my catholic beliefs, but even then we only go so far when referring to the Commandmenst. I never see the Commandmenst referred to as Mosaic Law in the catechism. But again, that’s not good enough for him. Since the catechism teaches us how to be catholic, it’s good enough for me.

The term “God’s Law” is used to confuse people just the way it is doing right here on this forum. Going around in circles about whether they separate them or not is moot because the mere fact that the are keeping Saturday as a Holy day of worship as it was given to the Isrealites is part of Mosaic Law. Separating the two would be like trying to separate our worshipping on the Lord’s Day and the part of the Bible that says we are sinning if we don’t.

In other words, if you believe in the Commandment you have to believe in the atonement for the sin against it. You cannot believe in Saturday worship and then turn around and ask the very Christ whom you are denying by worshipping on the day given to the Isrealites, for forgiveness. You are following what you believe to be the Commandment, but using NT atonment for the sin. That cannot be done. Either you believe Christ came and died for your sins or you don’t.

That is notwithstanding their doctrines on clean and unclean meat, which is in direct conflict with the fact that Brandon says SDAs believe that all but the Commandments were nailed to the cross. Again, you can’t have it both ways. Either you belive Christ died for your sins or you don’t.

And if they are going to observe Saturday worship which is an OT doctrine (Mosaic or not) , then why not be Jewish???

Catholics most certainly DO believe the Commandments are binding as a whole. We believe that we keep the Sabbath Holy by worshipping on Sunday. We believe this fulfills the Sabbath law. Apparently, Brandon believes that the fact that we worship on Sunday proves that the Commandments are not binding on Catholics.

My friends, that is a true SDA doctrine if I’ve ever heard one.

 

[SDA2RC]

This is the Commandment Law not a “precept”. They are not merely a guide to life. They are Commandments and if we sin against them we are sinning against God! You cannot receive communion if you are under grave sin. How can you consider yourself under grave sin if you consider the Commandments a “precept” and not binding as a whole?

Happily, A precept is:
1. a rule of conduct
2. a rule for morals

So I dont know what your going off on the fact that I called them precepts for… They are precepts, by definition.

Happily
You said if you sin against the Ten Commandments then you are sinning against God. Let me try to make my point this way.

Ok… What Ten commandments? IF your talking about the 10 Commandments as written in the Bible then you are it Mortal sin because the 3rd Commandment of scripture specifically says that you must keep the Seventh-Day as the Sabbath. You do not, therefore you are sinning against the 3rd Commandment as it is written.

You can try to justify your sin, but if you truly believe that we must follow the commandments in scripture, then you MUST keep Saturday as the Sabbath.

Have you truly thought this through?

You are accusing the Adventists of picking and choosing their laws… because they observe the Sabbath but dont observe the Sacrifices…

However, you are doing the same thing… you say we must observe the Ten Commandments, but then say we can ignore the part about the Seventh-DAy Sabbath cause the Church says so…

THAT is exactly what the Adventists do…

You said that you and I are agree on most things, if I would quit trying to show you how much I know (Or something like that)… when in reality we are VERY far apart… I just dont think you realize that.

You cant say that we have to obey the Ten Commandments and then say that we dont have to obey the part about the Seventh-Day, which is what you are saying.

 

[happilycatholic]

Happily:

In addition to what Brandon has rightly pointed out in the quote above, we must remember that the 10 commandments existed long before they were given to the Israelites at Sinai. The ancient code of Hammurabi which pre-dated Abraham (if I remember correctly), contained the same moral precepts as the 10 commandments. In fact, as is pointed out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, God only gave the Israelites the 10 commandments as a convenience. Why? Because the 10 commandments contain the “natural moral law” which anybody could figure out if they just sat down and thought about it for a while. Clearly Hammurabi and his predecessors did that (Hammurabi’s code was mostly just writing down what was already law).

Now here is a point of interest, the Sumerians and/or the Babylonians considered the seventh day, a bad luck day. They refrained from work on that day because it just wasn’t worth the risk to do anything on it. Mostly they stayed in doors. Sound familiar?

Marsha

Hi Marsha:

Are you expounding on Brandon’s “the Commandments are precept” comment?

I think Christ let us know just how important the Commandments are and the fact that when we sin against them, it is grave sin is testament to how important they are.

Are you trying to say that God felt the need to reiterate man’s law and therefor created the Commandments?

I’ve never heard this before. I’m amazed at the way catholics on this thread minimize the importance of the Commandments when sinning against them is sinning against God Himself, not Hammurabi.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

As happily has pointed out to you it is contained in the 7th commandment.

DJ:

Happily is mistaken on this point. The commandment, “Thou shatlt not commit adultery” says nothing about incest, or about fornication. It only forbids sexual liaisons between a married person other than the person’s spouse. It does not forbid an unmarried person having sex with another unmarried person whether it be that person’s sybling or a stranger in the market.

Moses defined the degrees of relationship with whom one may not have sex with, not the commandments. Only if one accepts that portion of the Mosaic writings are is one forbidden from incest. Interestingly if your father dies you cannot have relations with your step-mother, with whom you have no blood tie, so Moses went beyond mere incest as we know it.

Catholics oppose incest and fornication because the Church forbids it. In terms of fornication, the Church forbade it as early as the New Testament.

Now why does the SDA denomination forbid incest and fornication? By what authority does the denomination interpret the commandment “Thou shalt not committ adultery” to include incest and fornication? It claims to go by the Bible Alone, and the commandment does not say that. Ergo, the denomination must be bound by the Mosaic writings.

I suggest you get some sheep, and maybe start building some altars in back of the church. PETA is not going to be happy about this.

Marsha

 

[SDA2RC]

Catholics most certainly DO believe the Commandments are binding as a whole. We believe that we keep the Sabbath Holy by worshipping on Sunday. We believe this fulfills the Sabbath law. Apparently, Brandon believes that the fact that we worship on Sunday proves that the Commandments are not binding on Catholics.

My friends, that is a true SDA doctrine if I’ve ever heard one.

Happily,
You can continue to call me Adventist all you want… it if makes you feel good… then go for it.

The issue is not about what you call it… call it God’s Law… call it Jack… Call it anything you want.

You contradict yourself above… you say again that the commandments are binding on us in whole… but then explain away why you ignore the sabbath day… ARe they binding or not? If they are binding, then you need to do what they say… not what the Church says. You are practicing doublespeak…

Your are basically saying… they are binding except where they are not… cause the church says so.

This is what I am trying to point out to you… you are in a theological indefensible position, because you are contradicting yourself.

If we (the Church) can change them where we want (like from Saturday to Sunday) then they are not binding.

 

[SDA2RC]

Hi Marsha:

Are you expounding on Brandon’s “the Commandments are precept” comment?

I think Christ let us know just how important the Commandments are and the fact that when we sin against them, it is grave sin is testament to how important they are.

Are you trying to say that God felt the need to reiterate man’s law and therefor created the Commandments?

I’ve never heard this before. I’m amazed at the way catholics on this thread minimize the importance of the Commandments when sinning against them is sinning against God Himself, not Hammurabi.

Happily,
We are not minimizing them… Quite the opposite. We care about the Church’s relationship to the law… which is why I am spending so much time on it. We are hardly minimizing it.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Are you expounding on Brandon’s “the Commandments are precept” comment?

Happily:

Yes, I am.

Go to the Catechism and study the “moral law”. The following quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church sums up everything we as Catholics believe about the Law.

1975 According to Scripture the Law is a fatherly instruction by God which prescribes for man the ways that lead to the promised beatitude, and proscribes the ways of evil.

1976 “Law is an ordinance of reason for the common good, promulgated by the one who is in charge of the community” (St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 90, 4).

1977 Christ is the end of the law (cf. Rom 10:4); only he teaches and bestows the justice of God.

1978 The natural law is a participation in God’s wisdom and goodness by man formed in the image of his Creator. It expresses the dignity of the human person and forms the basis of his fundamental rights and duties.

1979 The natural law is immutable, permanent throughout history. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. It is a necessary foundation for the erection of moral rules and civil law.

1980 The Old Law is the first stage of revealed law. Its moral prescriptions are summed up in the Ten Commandments.

1981 The Law of Moses contains many truths naturally accessible to reason. God has revealed them because men did not read them in their hearts.

1982 The Old Law is a preparation for the Gospel.

1983 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit received by faith in Christ, operating through charity. It finds expression above all in the Lord’s Sermon on the Mount and uses the sacraments to communicate grace to us.

1984 The Law of the Gospel fulfills and surpasses the Old Law and brings it to perfection: its promises, through the Beatitudes of the Kingdom of heaven; its commandments, by reforming the heart, the root of human acts.

1985 The New Law is a law of love, a law of grace, a law of freedom.

1986 Besides its precepts the New Law includes the evangelical counsels. “The Church’s holiness is fostered in a special way by the manifold counsels which the Lord proposes to his disciples in the Gospel” (LG 42 § 2).

As Catholics we are under the NEW Law.

Marsha

 

[happilycatholic]

DJ:

Happily is mistaken on this point. The commandment, “Thou shatlt not commit adultery” says nothing about incest, or about fornication. It only forbids sexual liaisons between a married person other than the person’s spouse. It does not forbid an unmarried person having sex with another unmarried person whether it be that person’s sybling or a stranger in the market.

Moses defined the degrees of relationship with whom one may not have sex with, not the commandments. Only if one accepts that portion of the Mosaic writings are is one forbidden from incest. Interestingly if your father dies you cannot have relations with your step-mother, with whom you have no blood tie, so Moses went beyond mere incest as we know it.

Catholics oppose incest and fornication because the Church forbids it. In terms of fornication, the Church forbade it as early as the New Testament.

Now why does the SDA denomination forbid incest and fornication? By what authority does the denomination interpret the commandment “Thou shalt not committ adultery” to include incest and fornication? It claims to go by the Bible Alone, and the commandment does not say that. Ergo, the denomination must be bound by the Mosaic writings.

I suggest you get some sheep, and maybe start building some altars in back of the church. PETA is not going to be happy about this.

Marsha

I’m sorry. Did I say the 7th Commandment said anything about incest or fornication? No. I said all sexual sin comes under the 7th Commandments. It has to do with discernment of our sins for confession.

Good grief.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I’m sorry. Did I say the 7th Commandment said anything about incest or fornication? No. I said all sexual sin comes under the 7th Commandments. It has to do with discernment of our sins for confession.

Good grief.

Happily:

The only reason all sexual sin comes under the “Thou shalt not commit adultery” commandment (the 6th by Catholic reckoning) is because the Church has interpreted it to include all sexual sin. The Church has authority to do this.

SDAs claiming the Bible Alone cannot include all sexual sin under that commandment. If they want to forbid incest, they have to once again embrace the Mosaic writings.

My apologies, if I attributed something to you that you did not say. I was going merely on what DJ said you said. Sorry about that.

Marsha

 

[Protestant101]

Pure unmitgated nonsense–find whoever told you that and slug the sucker!

Pastors preach that there are many God-fearing people in the RCC (and other denominations as well)!

Hey DJ I really wish you would do two things. 1/ Stop “sticking up” for Adventists, as you do not accurately reflect what they believe or where they are headed, some of what you present is pure fiction. 2/ Stick to the subject. This thread is about the Sabbath vs Sunday questions.

 

[happilycatholic]

Happily:

Yes, I am.

Go to the Catechism and study the “moral law”. The following quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church sums up everything we as Catholics believe about the Law.

As Catholics we are under the NEW Law.

Marsha

I’m not sure what point you are making with this. I’ve never said the Commandments were God’s law en toto. In fact, I’ve said just the opposite and that has been my argument in the SDAs method of referring to the Commandments as God’s Law. You and Brandon keep going around in circles and I’m not sure what it is you are trying to prove.

This all started with Brandon correcting me on what Adventists believe is the difference between Mosaic Law and God’s Law. But in my orignial post my question is not about Mosaic Law and God’s Law (an SDA term/doctrine) but rather Mosaic law and Commandment Law. My only argument has been that they use the term “God’s Law” because they claim that catholics have set asunder the Commandments.

Also they contend that the Sabbath worship is not Mosaic Law but it certainly is as it is interpreted in the OT. I know that because the Holy See interprets the 4th Commandment to mean Sunday worship, the Lord’s Day, the same as in the NT. I haven’t said this up to this point so as not to start a whole other can of worms, but we as catholics believe Sunday IS the Sabbath. That is why we can and do hold the Commandments binding without having to keep the Saturday Sabbath law.

And if you are going to interpret the institution of the Sabbath with the OT, then you have to interpret the implementation of the Sabbath with the OT as well. However, to do that would not be Christian, but Jewish. So…they contend they follow the OT on one hand and the NT to gain the Christian label and to receive Grace through forgiveness. I hardly think that you can ask forgiveness from Jesus, which they refuse to honor on His day.

They are an OT faith based upon OT beliefs. Whether they admit it is moot.

Believe me I realize we as catholics are under the New Covenant. I just don’t think it’s widely accepted among SDAs that the Commandments tell us to keep the Lord’s Day Holy, and not Saturday. Therefor they believe that to keep the Commandments we have to worship on Saturday and by saying they are right, what are you really saying? You are saying that you indeed believe that we should keep Saturday Holy and not Sunday OR not follow all of the Commandments. That is SDA doctrine, not Catholic doctrine.

How many times does this have to be said?

 

[racing59]

Acts 15 God’s law on the Covenant of circumcising was changed. I don’t think God is going to send any one to hell that celebrates the Sabbath on Saturday or Sunday, or any other day of the week. The spirit of the law is we give him one day out of seven in which we worship him. Just my two cents.

 

[happilycatholic]

Brandon:

My problem with the term “precept” is not ‘that’ you used it, it’s how you used it. You used it in a way that minimalizes the catholic doctrine that ALL the Commandments are binding agaist ALL Christians. It’s what we base our discernment of sins on for confession. In other words, it’s how we can tell we’ve sinned against God.

I’m not questioning you as a Christian. I just wonder when you say things like in order for the Commandments to be binding on Christians we’d have to worship on Saturday.

You need to go to the Holy See’s website and search on “Commandments” there you will find No. 3. It is defined in the catechism as the Sabbath and as the Lord’s Day. One and the same, no difference.

This makes it very clear that we CAN and ARE bound by every single one of the Commandments as they are written.

For you to say, that if the Commandments were still binding on Christians we’d have to worship on Saturday is WRONG and the Holy See puts that right on their website.

That AGAIN is an SDA doctrine and EXACTLY WHY THEY WORSHIP ON SATURDAY.

So who is wrong you or the Holy See? Is that good enough documentation for how WRONG you are???

 

[SDA2RC]

This all started with Brandon correcting me on what Adventists believe is the difference between Mosaic Law and God’s Law. But in my orignial post my question is not about Mosaic Law and God’s Law (an SDA term/doctrine) but rather Mosaic law and Commandment Law.

Call it God’s Law or the Commandment law… either way they are the same thing as the Mosaic Law… as it is part of the Mosaic law.

I know that because the Holy See interprets the 4th Commandment to mean Sunday worship, the Lord’s Day, the same as in the NT. I haven’t said this up to this point so as not to start a whole other can of worms, but we as catholics believe Sunday IS the Sabbath.

NO WE DONT believe that Sunday is the Sabbath. The Catechism is VERY specific that the Sabbath is on Saturday and Sunday is the day AFTER the sabbath.

[2175](javascript:OpenPopupWindow() Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of ChristSunday is not the SAbbath for Catholics… as the catechism says… IT IS EXPRESSELY DISTINGUISHED from the Sabbath. It is the Lord’s day… not the Sabbath.

That is why we can and do hold the Commandments binding without having to keep the Saturday Sabbath law.

The Saturday Sabbath law is part of the Commandments, so you cannot say that you hold them as binding and yet dont have to do what they say. The commandments say to observe the Seventh-Day Sabbath.

They are an OT faith based upon OT beliefs. Whether they admit it is moot.

This is partially true…

Believe me I realize we as catholics are under the New Covenant. I just don’t think it’s widely accepted among SDAs that the Commandments tell us to keep the Lord’s Day Holy, and not Saturday.

Thats because the Commandments DONT tell us to keep the Lord’s Day Holy… they tell us to keep the Sabbath Holy. The Commandments dont mention the Lord’s Day.

As Catholics we dont observe the Sabbath because we are not bound to them in whole, we are bound by the Moral precepts found within in them, but not them as they are written.

Therefor they believe that to keep the Commandments we have to worship on Saturday and by saying they are right, what are you really saying?

I am saying that if Catholics observed the Mosaic Law, we would HAVE to go to Church on Saturday. We don’t… we are not bound by the Mosaic Law (Which includes the 10 Commandments), we are bound to the moral precepts contained in the Mosaic Law under the NEW LAW or New Covenant, but not the express observance of the 10 Commandments as they are written.

How many times does this have to be said?

Until you understand that we do not observe the Ten Commandments. We only observe their Moral Precepts