why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[djconklin]

Hey DJ I really wish you would do two things. 1/ Stop “sticking up” for Adventists, as you do not accurately reflect what they believe or where they are headed, some of what you present is pure fiction. 2/ Stick to the subject. This thread is about the Sabbath vs Sunday questions.

1. Been SDA for over 40 years and went to the seminary so I’m pretty familiar with what they think vs. those who think they know everything about them because they read some book (or worse a web site!), that criticizes the SDA church.
2. I don’t like how threads wander either but I’m not going to let a bald-faced lie go by without calling it out.

 

[djconklin]

Until you understand that we do not observe the Ten Commandments. We only observe their Moral Precepts

You cannot do one without doing the other. The 10C’s are moral precepts.

 

[SDA2RC]

Brandon:
My problem with the term “precept” is not ‘that’ you used it, it’s how you used it. You used it in a way that minimalizes the catholic doctrine that ALL the Commandments are binding agaist ALL Christians.

That is not Catholic Doctrine… And the term “precept” does not minimalize it at all. Catholics are bound by the Moral obligations or precepts of the Mosaic Law and are bound to the entire New Law which includes those moral precepts found in the Ten Commandments.

I’m not questioning you as a Christian. I just wonder when you say things like in order for the Commandments to be binding on Christians we’d have to worship on Saturday.

I say that because it is true… You cannot on one hand say you are bound to them and then in the next breath say… but we dont follow this one as it is written. You cannot say we are bound by the third commandment that requires Saturday observance, but then turn around and say, “but we dont have to keep Saturday.” If you dont practice any part of them, then you are not binding yourself to them.

This makes it very clear that we CAN and ARE bound by every single one of the Commandments as they are written.

LOL… how can that be… when As it is written… the Sabbath is the Seventh-Day… but Sunday, which you are saying is the Sabbath, is the first day. How can you say that we are following them as they are written when we observe the 1st day… and the commandment says to observe the 7th day?

 

[djconklin]

Acts 15 God’s law on the Covenant of circumcising was changed. I don’t think God is going to send any one to hell that celebrates the Sabbath on Saturday or Sunday, or any other day of the week. The spirit of the law is we give him one day out of seven in which we worship him.

The first sentence is true. Circumcision was God’s way of separating the Jews from the Gentiles. The rest however doesn’t follow from that. Anyone who breaks one of the 10C’s is a sinner and the Bible is quite clear:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The spirit of the 4th Commandment is that we shold love God with all our heart, mind and strength and

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

[djconklin]

I am saying that if Catholics observed the Mosaic Law, we would HAVE to go to Church on Saturday.

The Sabbath was instituted at Creation, long before Moses even existed and was practiced a month before the law was even made.

Originally Posted by happilycatholic
This makes it very clear that we CAN and ARE bound by every single one of the Commandments as they are written.

LOL… how can that be… when As it is written… the Sabbath is the Seventh-Day… but Sunday, which you are saying is the Sabbath, is the first day. How can you say that we are following them as they are written when we observe the 1st day… and the commandment says to observe the 7th day?

BINGO!

 

[SDA2RC]

You cannot do one without doing the other. The 10C’s are moral precepts.

That is where we differ… the ceremonial or outward observance is resting on the 7th day. The moral precept is to Worship God.

We observe the Moral precept on the 1st day of the week, and the Ceremonial Precept on the 1st day of the week. We do this because we are not bound by the ceremonial observance as it is written in the commandment, as it was part of the Mosaic Law… as their other Sabbaths were…

However, the Moral precept to worship God and set time apart for HIM is natural law, and is eternal. We have chosen to do this on the First day of the week in celebration of his Resurrection and the New Creation.

 

[Protestant101]

1. Been SDA for over 40 years and went to the seminary so I’m pretty familiar with what they think vs. those who think they know everything about them because they read some book (or worse a web site!), that criticizes the SDA church.
2. I don’t like how threads wander either but I’m not going to let a bald-faced lie go by without calling it out.

Going to the seminary certainly doesn’t = expert. You are not half the authority you think you are. I am out of this discussion. You have ruined it.

 

[djconklin]

the ceremonial or outward observance is resting on the 7th day. The moral precept is to Worship God.

There is nothing ceremonial about remember that God is our Creator. All of the 10C’s depend on that fact. Without Him being our Creator there is no reason why we should observe any of the other 9.

 

[SDA2RC]

The Sabbath was instituted at Creation, long before Moses even existed and was practiced a month before the law was even made.

DJ,
Sacrifices were practiced long before the Mosaic Law too, we find them in the Garden of Eden, but we also do not observe Sacrifices because it was part of the Mosaic Law.

The weekly Sabbath was not commanded or observed at Creation. God rested and sanctified the 7th day of creation… not every 7th day. The weekly Sabbath was not instituted until the Exodus… …

 

[Marsha_Adams]

1. Been SDA for over 40 years and went to the seminary so I’m pretty familiar with what they think vs. those who think they know everything about them because they read some book (or worse a web site!), that criticizes the SDA church.
2. I don’t like how threads wander either but I’m not going to let a bald-faced lie go by without calling it out.

DJ

You told me that you don’t belong to any organized religion. Now you say you have been SDA for 40 years. Wassup?

Marsha

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin

1. Been SDA for over 40 years and went to the seminary so I’m pretty familiar with what they think vs. those who think they know everything about them because they read some book (or worse a web site!), that criticizes the SDA church.
2. I don’t like how threads wander either but I’m not going to let a bald-faced lie go by without calling it out.

Going to the seminary certainly doesn’t = expert. You are not half the authority you think you are. I am out of this discussion. You have ruined it.

I never said I was an expert nor have I claimed to be an authority. But then you never proved that anything I said was “pure fiction” either. You just cast the insult and now you run.

 

[djconklin]

You told me that you don’t belong to any organized religion. Now you say you have been SDA for 40 years. Wassup?

Met too many people who lied and attacked me as a Christian, so I quit going to any church period. It’s almost made me quit being a Christian, 'cause I can’t stand how some of God’s supposed children treat me. So far, I’ve been able to hang on. The only logical argument the atheists could have against Christianity is how Christians treat each other.

 

[SDA2RC]

Met too many people who lied and attacked me as a Christian, so I quit going to any church period. It’s almost made me quit being a Christian, 'cause I can’t stand how some of God’s supposed children treat me. So far, I’ve been able to hang on. The only logical argument the atheists could have against Christianity is how Christians treat each other.

So If I understand you correctly, you are not actively attending an SDA Church, but you still consider yourself Adventist? Correct?

 

[SDA2RC]

Going to the seminary certainly doesn’t = expert. You are not half the authority you think you are. I am out of this discussion. You have ruined it.

Protestant, I would appreciate it if you would stay… your (name removed by moderator)ut is beneficial… Thanks

 

[SDA2RC]

There is nothing ceremonial about remember that God is our Creator. All of the 10C’s depend on that fact. Without Him being our Creator there is no reason why we should observe any of the other 9.

It is the outward Observance that is ceremonial…

“(2) The Sabbath in its nature, is itself a ceremonial law: the moral law is all law which appeals to the conscience, and needs no written revelation; but as to which day to observe, or whether to observe any day at all, conscience is silent. If we are to distinguish between the moral and the ceremonial law, on the ground that one is passed, and the other still in force, then–as the Sabbath is purely ceremonial law–it is passed. But the most important point still remains. (3) I, as a Christian, obey all law that is moral in the Decalogue, not because it is in the Law, but because it is in the Gospel. Worship of God only is enjoined fifty times in the New Testament; idolatry is forbidden twelve times; profanity four times; honor of father and mother is commanded six times; adultery is forbidden twelve; theft six; false witness four; and covetousness, nine times. “The Ten Commandments,” as Luther says, “do not apply to us Gentiles and Christians, but only to the Jews.” So the Sabbath–except in a single passage where, classing it with the entire law, he declares it has been totally abolished. So the early Church held.”

--D. M. Panton, cited in Heresies Exposed, Compiled by Irvine, pp. 164-165.
​

 

[SDA2RC]

(Gerald N. Wright, Sabbatarian Concordance & Commentary, Star Bible & Tract Corp., 1977, pp. 78-79).
Wright commenting on this passage says: "The other nine [commandments] were (and are) inherently right from the beginning, reflecting God’s righteous nature and being naturally a part of man’s moral character, who was made in the image of God (cf Romans 2:14). Which command other than the sabbath is lower than man–subject to being set aside under certain circumstances? When, or under what circumstances, can man lawfully commit adultery? Obviously, never! Man’s life is not above God’s holy and moral laws. Yet even a sheep’s life is more important than rigid enforcement of the sabbath (Matthew 12:10-12)!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Dies Domini (Apostolic Letter by John Paul II)

1. Because the Third Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God’s saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world’s origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ’s Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the “spiritual” meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: “For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ”.(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity’s first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, “groaning in birth-pangs until now” (Rom 8:22), came to know its new “exodus” into the freedom of God’s children who can cry out with Christ, “Abba, Father!” (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord’s Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the “Sabbath” to the “first day after the Sabbath”, from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

Happily:

The Church can do what John Paul describes above because the 10 Commandments are no longer binding on us. Of all the 10 Commandments only the third commandment was not reiterated in some fashion in the New Testament under the New Covenant.

Marsha

 

[happilycatholic]

NO WE DONT believe that Sunday is the Sabbath.

That is meant within the pretense of satisfying the Sabbath law by keeping the Lord’s Day Holy as evidenced by the Magesterium on the website of the Holy See.

So you are right and the Holy See is wrong. And the Holy Father is letting his adminstrators post something that is contrary to Catholic Doctrine. You can take the position that the Sabbath Day is Saturday and given as a day of rest and the Lord’s Day is Sunday and given as a day to worship God. But the Catechetical translation does not say this. It does not differenciate between the two. I’m okay with the Sabbath and Sunday being different days, but how in the world do you get that we are not bound by the Commandments as Christians because if we were we’d have to worship on Saturday?

That’s priceless.

Read this from the Holy See and pay close attention to the last one:

The Decalogue in the Church’s Tradition
2064 In fidelity to Scripture and in conformity with the example of Jesus, the tradition of the Church has acknowledged the primordial importance and significance of the Decalogue.
2065 Ever since St. Augustine, the Ten Commandments have occupied a predominant place in the catechesis of baptismal candidates and the faithful. In the fifteenth century, the custom arose of expressing the commandments of the Decalogue in rhymed formulae, easy to memorize and in positive form. They are still in use today. The catechisms of the Church have often expounded Christian morality by following the order of the Ten Commandments.
2066 The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confessions. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.
2067 The Ten Commandments state what is required in the love of God and love of neighbor. The first three concern love of God, and the other seven love of neighbor.
As charity comprises the two commandments to which the Lord related the whole Law and the prophets . . . so the Ten Commandments were themselves given on two tablets. Three were written on one tablet and seven on the other.27 2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

 

[happilycatholic]

Okay Brandon, if you don’t go to mass on Sunday. Which Commandment have you broken?

 

[SDA2RC]

Happily,
The issue here is yours… Your claim that they are binding as is written, but then on the other hand that we are not bound by the 7th Day Sabbath is what is contradictory, and you have yet to explain it to us.

My statements stand… We are bound to the Moral precepts of the Commandments, as stated in the Catechism when dealing with the Subject of the Third Commandment. We are not bound to the Commandments ceremonial observance.

This is why you have not explained how you can be bound ot the commandments as written, yet ignore what is written when it comes to the Sabbath.

ARe you bound to them or not?

That is meant within the pretense of satisfying the Sabbath law by keeping the Lord’s Day Holy as evidenced by the Magesterium on the website of the Holy See.

So you are right and the Holy See is wrong. And the Holy Father is letting his adminstrators post something that is contrary to Catholic Doctrine. You can take the position that the Sabbath Day is Saturday and given as a day of rest and the Lord’s Day is Sunday and given as a day to worship God. But the Catechetical translation does not say this. It does not differenciate between the two. I’m okay with the Sabbath and Sunday being different days, but how in the world do you get that we are not bound by the Commandments as Christians because if we were we’d have to worship on Saturday?

That’s priceless.

Read this from the Holy See and pay close attention to the last one:

The Decalogue in the Church’s Tradition
2064 In fidelity to Scripture and in conformity with the example of Jesus, the tradition of the Church has acknowledged the primordial importance and significance of the Decalogue.
2065 Ever since St. Augustine, the Ten Commandments have occupied a predominant place in the catechesis of baptismal candidates and the faithful. In the fifteenth century, the custom arose of expressing the commandments of the Decalogue in rhymed formulae, easy to memorize and in positive form. They are still in use today. The catechisms of the Church have often expounded Christian morality by following the order of the Ten Commandments.
2066 The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confessions. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.
2067 The Ten Commandments state what is required in the love of God and love of neighbor. The first three concern love of God, and the other seven love of neighbor.
As charity comprises the two commandments to which the Lord related the whole Law and the prophets . . . so the Ten Commandments were themselves given on two tablets. Three were written on one tablet and seven on the other.27 2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29