why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[SDA2RC]

First… as Catholics we traditionally use the enumeration of the commandments, that makes the sabbath commandment the third, not the fourth. Protestants however, generally use a numbering system that lists the Sabbath as the forth commandment. You will see in the Catechism that it is listed as the Third commandment. This is not doctrine, but Catholic tradition.

You can see one article about this here:
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403fea3.asp

As far as the equating the Third commandment with Sabbath worship, I do not, I equate it with Sabbath rest… read what the Catechism actually says:

ARTICLE 3
THE THIRD COMMANDMENT

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.90

The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt1art3.shtml

It is the Church and scripture that equates the third commandment with the Sabbath.

You can deny it, but all one has to do is read the commandment from Exodus, the actual commandment from Exodus or the Catechism says nothing about the Lord’s Day… it talks EXCLUSIVELY about the 7th day Sabbath rest.

**Notice the correction in the Commandment Number. We’ve been referring to the Sabbath Commandment as the 3d, but it is actually the 4th. Probably my fault.

You are correct. It says to keep the **Fourth Commandment by keeping Holy the Lord’s Day. You keep equating the Fourth Commandment with the Sabbath worship.

Catholics equate the Fourth Commandment with worship on the Lord’s Day. I’m not sure what this has to do with the distinction between moral and ceremonial law since no ceremonial law is contained in the Commandments. It is all moral law.

Only SDA’s and Jews equate the Fourth Commandment with Sabbath worship.

 

[happilycatholic]

First… as Catholics we traditionally use the enumeration of the commandments, that makes the sabbath commandment the third, not the fourth. Protestants however, generally use a numbering system that lists the Sabbath as the forth commandment. You will see in the Catechism that it is listed as the Third commandment. This is not doctrine, but Catholic tradition.

You can see one article about this here:
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403fea3.asp

As far as the equating the Third commandment with Sabbath worship, I do not, I equate it with Sabbath rest… read what the Catechism actually says:

ARTICLE 3
THE THIRD COMMANDMENT

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.90The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt1art3.shtml

It is the Church and scripture that equates the third commandment with the Sabbath.

You can deny it, but all one has to do is read the commandment from Exodus, the actual commandment from Exodus or the Catechism says nothing about the Lord’s Day… it talks EXCLUSIVELY about the 7th day Sabbath rest.

Okay, I’m not crazy. That’s where I got the Third Commandment thing. Incidentally, the Vatican lists the Sabbath Commandment as the fourth one, although they are not numbered.

Your position about the Fourth Commandment in Exodus being some sort of “true form” of the Commandments is a Seventh Day Adventist doctrine.

First you held the position that we were not bound by the Commandments at all and now you seem to have changed your mind.

The Holy See gives the form given in Exodus, Dueteronomy and in the catechism. In the catechetical form, it states to Keep Holy the Lord’s Day. Therefor the catholic doctrine is to equate the Fourth Commandment as the Day to (keep holy) Worship the Lord and that would mean that the Sabbath Commandment is kept by keeping the Lord’s Day Holy. Pope John Paul II clarifies this in his Deis Domini encyclical letter.

I don’t know how much simpler I can make this.

You keep telling me catholics don’t keep the Fourth Commandment but we most certainly do. It’s right there plain as day in the catechism, on the Vatican’s website and in at least one Papal Encyclical letter.

Your position on this matter is contrary to the Church’s that has been proven to you just as you asked, plain as day.

You have yet to show me where and how you come to the conclusion that catholics are not bound by the Fourth Commandment.

Care to do that? By the way, the Canon you attached is INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE. It does not exclude the Lord’s Day, but includes the Sabbath Day. Later on it states why the two are symbolically married together in the forshadowing of Christ’s coming.

 

[happilycatholic]

It is the Church and scripture that equates the third commandment with the Sabbath.

You can deny it, but all one has to do is read the commandment from Exodus, the actual commandment from Exodus or the Catechism says nothing about the Lord’s Day… it talks EXCLUSIVELY about the 7th day Sabbath rest.

Here is where the catechism marries the two and also address your error in believing that mass is a fulfillment of “ceremonial” law. No part of the Commandments is ceremonial. It is purely moral. Period. The entirety of the mass is a moral obligation, no part of it is a ceremonial one.

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 **Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people. **

This also speaks to the weekly obligation which is obviously Biblical, not something the Church instituted.

 

[SDA2RC]

Oh my… the Bible commandment in Exodus is the true form of the Commandment, that is why the Catechism uses it word for word when listing the 3rd commandment, and thats why its in our Bible… we can trust our Bibles… LOL There is no true’r form that scripture its self.

I dont need to show you that we dont keep the 3rd commandment of the Bible… all you have to do is think… You dont need the Church or anyone else to tell you… its obvious. Its no wonder Non-catholics think Catholics are brainwashed…

The third commandment states that we must keep the 7th day Sabbath, in both the catechism and the Bible. We do not keep the Seventh-Day Sabbath, we keep the First Day, the Lord’s day, instead… therefore we do not keep the 3rd Commandment of scripture.

If you dont do something. you just dont do it… We dont keep the Sabbath… the Sabbath is the 7th day of the week, both scripture and the Catechism tell us this… We dont keep it… therefore we dont keep the commandment that commands us to keep the Sabbath.

If anyone else can think of how to explain this… then please do… I dont think there is anything left I can say until we can at least agree that we dont keep the 7th day Sabbath, which is what the 3rd commandment commands us to do, according to the Bible and Catechism.

You really only have two option… you can claim we do keep the 7th Day Sabbath and hence obey the commandment. Or you can admit that we don’t keep the 7th Day Sabbath, and realize that there is more to understand about Catholic Doctrine and why we claim to keep the Commandments when strictly speaking or literally… we dont.

Until you have realized one of those two positions, I really dont know what else to say, other than I feel that your not being intellectually up front.

If you tell a child to take out the trash… and they dont… then they didnt obey your command.

If God Tells us to keep the 7th Day as a Sabbath, and we don’t, ten we arent obeying his command, no matter what you may understand from reading Church documents. The Church can’t tell you that your doing something that you arent. So either your not understanding what the Church means, or your denying the reality that we dont keep the 7th Day Sabbath, which is what is commanded in the 3rd commandment.

Good night… hope everyone sleeps well.

Okay, I’m not crazy. That’s where I got the Third Commandment thing. Incidentally, the Vatican lists the Sabbath Commandment as the fourth one, although they are not numbered.

Your position about the Fourth Commandment in Exodus being some sort of “true form” of the Commandments is a Seventh Day Adventist doctrine.

First you held the position that we were not bound by the Commandments at all and now you seem to have changed your mind.

The Holy See gives the form given in Exodus, Dueteronomy and in the catechism. In the catechetical form, it states to Keep Holy the Lord’s Day. Therefor the catholic doctrine is to equate the Fourth Commandment as the Day to (keep holy) Worship the Lord and that would mean that the Sabbath Commandment is kept by keeping the Lord’s Day Holy. Pope John Paul II clarifies this in his Deis Domini encyclical letter.

I don’t know how much simpler I can make this.

You keep telling me catholics don’t keep the Fourth Commandment but we most certainly do. It’s right there plain as day in the catechism, on the Vatican’s website and in at least one Papal Encyclical letter.

Your position on this matter is contrary to the Church’s that has been proven to you just as you asked, plain as day.

You have yet to show me where and how you come to the conclusion that catholics are not bound by the Fourth Commandment.

Care to do that? By the way, the Canon you attached is INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE. It does not exclude the Lord’s Day, but includes the Sabbath Day. Later on it states why the two are symbolically married together in the forshadowing of Christ’s coming.

 

[SDA2RC]

I never said Mass was a fulfillment of the cermonial law… in fact when you made that claim before… I told you that I didnt say that then. So… I am not sure what your point is… Your refuting something that I never said… nor do I believe.

Brandon

Here is where the catechism marries the two and also address your error in believing that mass is a fulfillment of “ceremonial” law. No part of the Commandments is ceremonial. It is purely moral. Period. The entirety of the mass is a moral obligation, no part of it is a ceremonial one.

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 **Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people. **

This also speaks to the weekly obligation which is obviously Biblical, not something the Church instituted.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Mortal or venial?

Okay, so the Church made up a sin? The only sins are sins against God. God tells us what is sin, not the Church.

The Church does not make up sins or “delare something a sin”. They might clarify the law such as they did with the 4th Commandment, but they don’t just make up a sin or declare it a sin unless it falls under a Commandment.

My guess is that these fall under the Fourth Commandment to keep the Lord’s Day Holy since the Eucharist is part of keeping the Lord’s Day Holy.

Happily:

Yes the Church can make laws and violations of those laws are mortal sins. God gave the Church the authority to do this.

Marsha

The Seven Precepts of the Church

I. To attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, and resting from servile works.

II. To observe the days of abstinence and fasting.

III. To confess our sins to a priest, at least once a year.

IV. To receive Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist at least once a year during Easter Season.

V. To contribute to the support of the Church.

VI. To obey the laws of the Church concerning Matrimony.

VII. To participate in the Church’s mission of Evangelization of Souls.(Missionary Spirit of the Church

Precepts of the Catholic Church (beginningcatholic.com)

The Precepts of the Catholic Church are a description of the absolute minimum actions required of Catholics regarding the Church.

The Church uses these precepts remind us that Christian life requires a commitment to prayer and active participation in the liturgy and sacraments. If we fall below this bare-minimum level, we can’t rightly consider ourselves to be in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Each of these precepts of the Catholic Church is a requirement. Together with the Ten Commandments, they represent the minimum level of moral living. Intentional violation of the precepts or the Commandments is a grave matter, meaning a mortal sin.

 

[SDA2RC]

Here is where the catechism marries the two and also address your error in believing that mass is a fulfillment of “ceremonial” law. No part of the Commandments is ceremonial. It is purely moral. Period. The entirety of the mass is a moral obligation, no part of it is a ceremonial one.

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 **Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people. **

This also speaks to the weekly obligation which is obviously Biblical, not something the Church instituted.

Please show us in scripture where we are commanded to attend Mass on Sundays? You said it was “obviously Biblical” so it should be easy to provide us with the passage.

I agree that we should attend Mass on Sunday, but because it is a teaching of the Church… not a teaching of the Bible.

 

[myroneffing]

The apostles were Jewish, and so in their cultural setting they kept, at least for some time, the law that forbade walking too far on the Sabbath. Thus they did not gather on Saturday. The Lord was in the tomb on Saturday–resting, to fulfill the meaning of the Sabbath. On Sunday they gathered again, once it was possible to walk and prepare food, and that is when the Lord appeared to them after the Resurrection. So it became normal to gather on the first free day when it was possible. The Holy Spirit also decended upon them on that day, because they were already together. The Law of Moses was understood very early (especially by St Paul) as having been abrogated, so that no one needed to observe it necessarily, although the moral norms were for all ages as expressing God’s will.
In Jewish thought each day begins at sunset, so some Christians gathered after sunset on “Saturday”, since it was already Sunday, which is still true in the Roman church today, and which also explains why some ancient churches gathered on “saturday” night–It was really already Sunday.

When the Church became mostly Greek, and after the Apostles decided with the help of the Holy Spirit that Christians did not have to keep the Law of Moses (and really couldn’t anyway, since it be no longer in force) they continued the practice of gathering on Sunday (including Saturday night) which was a continuation of the way in which the Apostles gathered. After all, the Church is simply the Company of the Apostles continued through time.

So Sunday is only a sabbath by analogy. One could say that it became the Christian day of rest only after emperors made it a free day so that Christians could more easily gather and celebrate the great event of Jesus’ Passover by Breaking Bread as He commanded. The Church still today considers it morally bad to excuse oneself from Sunday Mass on Saturday night or Sunday without a good cause, since we shouldn’t exclude ourselves from the Company of the Apostles where the Holy Sacrifice will be made and where our souls will be healed and fed.

Many Christians have already excluded themselves from the Company of the Apostles, or were never members of it, so, of course, they have trouble interpreting Scripture and Tradition, since they do it in a vacuum. Someone looked at my family photo album and said, “Your grandfather was a general in the Army?” I said, “No, he was an actor!” Only people who are part of the tradition can understand it. The rest are mostly guessing.

 

[happilycatholic]

Please show us in scripture where we are commanded to attend Mass on Sundays? You said it was “obviously Biblical” so it should be easy to provide us with the passage.

I agree that we should attend Mass on Sunday, but because it is a teaching of the Church… not a teaching of the Bible.

What about “Keep Holy the Lord’s Day” do you not understand?

 

[happilycatholic]

We observe the Moral precept on the 1st day of the week, and the Ceremonial Precept on the 1st day of the week.

And then you said this:

Until you understand that we do not observe the Ten Commandments. We only observe their Moral Precepts.

So, who is flip-flopping here?! How in the world can you observe PART of a Commandment or what a Commandment might infer?! They don’t suggest they COMMAND.

These are two different posts from you with two different positions. One says we don’t observe the Commandments at all and the other says we observe the “moral precept” of the Commandment on the 1st day of the week.

One says we observe the “ceremonial precept” and now you are saying we don’t.

I never said we observe “the Sabbath” I SAID IN PLAIN ENGLISH, WE OBSERVE THE FOURTH (SABBATH) COMMANDMENT BECAUSE IT IS FULFILLED IN THE COMING OF CHRIST, HENCE “THE LORD’S DAY”.

That is the EXACT position of the Church. And we go to mass because it is commanded by Jesus (initiated in the Last Supper) in the Fourth Commandment, not because of some Church rule. Why do you think Christians go to church at all on Sunday, because they decided to make it a rule? No, because the Fourth Commandment commands us to keep the Lord’s Day Holy.

You still sound just like a Protestant that likes to spout, “you do what you do because the Pope commands you to.”

We as catholics do EVERYTHING because it is based in Scripture. Every Tradition, every Church precept, every sacrament, EVERYTHING is based in Scripture.

The Church has yet to “make” us do anything that is not based in Scripture. Even Apostolic Tradition is BASED IN SCRIPTURE.

The Church cannot MAKE UP SIN. ONLY GOD CAN TELL US WHAT IS SIN. THE CHURCH CAN ONLY CLARIFY IT AND MAKE IT DOCTRINE THROUGH THE MAGESTERIUM.

NO MAN CAN MAKE UP A SIN.

I don’t know where you people get this stuff, but you absolutely are wrong. These Church precepts may appear to be “made up”, but I can garuntee you that if your are in sin by not obeying them, they fall under a Commandment. If not, you are simply breaking Church Tradition. EVERY SINGLE SIN FALLS UNDER COMMANDMENT! THE CHURCH DOES NOT DETERMINE SIN, GOD DOES.

If you will look through a confession discernment booklet, it will explain this to you. Because I cannot, the catechism cannot, and the Holy See cannot. If you can’t figure it out through the Deposit of Faith, I sure can’t help you.

Go to your priest and tell him the same things you’ve said here:

1.) Christians/Catholics are not bound by the Ten Commandments.

2.) Christians/Catholics are not bound by the Fourth(Third, whatever) Commandment.

3.) Catholics attend mass only because the Church made it a rule.

See what he tells you.

 

[happilycatholic]

I’m going to post this one more time:

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

Pay close attention to where it is bolded. That’s where it clearly states that Sunday Mass is a celebration of the Lord of the Sabbath and the Redeemer and that we are to keep the Lord’s Day Holy in a “weekly celebration” (mass).

How can you not plainly see that we are required, by the Fourth Commandment, to keep it AND attend Mass in the same way non-catholics keep the Fourth Commandment by attending their church?

 

[happilycatholic]

“What we have here is a failure to communicate”.

**"Oh my… the Bible commandment in Exodus is the true form of the Commandment, that is why the Catechism uses it word for word when listing the 3rd commandment, and thats why its in our Bible… we can trust our Bibles… LOL There is no true’r form that scripture its self. **

**I dont need to show you that we dont keep the 3rd commandment of the Bible… all you have to do is think… You dont need the Church or anyone else to tell you… its obvious. Its no wonder Non-catholics think Catholics are brainwashed… "

**It’s called individual interpretation of the Scripture. Very Protestant of you to just come right out and say “we don’t need the Church, blah, blah, blah.”

The Church doesn’t change Scripture, it interprets it. Good grief, that’s one of the most basic apologetic doctrines there is.

If you think catechism is brainwashing then you are a member of the wrong Church my friend.

The very reason you don’t believe catholics or Christians alike are bound by the Commandments is because you REFUSE to agree with the catechism, the Vatican website and any other Deposit of Faith given to you to explain it.

 

[SDA2RC]

What about “Keep Holy the Lord’s Day” do you not understand?

LOL… Keep Holy the Lord’s Day is not the commandment, it is a catechitecal summary of the commandment. The full commandment is listed in the Catechism and scripture and says nothing about the Lord’s day.

Thats like saying that reading the cliff notes constitutes the entire book.

 

[happilycatholic]

LOL… Keep Holy the Lord’s Day is not the commandment, it is a catechitecal summary of the commandment. The full commandment is listed in the Catechism and scripture and says nothing about the Lord’s day.

Thats like saying that reading the cliff notes constitutes the entire book.

No sir, it is a catechetical “formula” in other words, it’s the way it’s written according to catechetical interpretation.

LOL

 

[happilycatholic]

LOL… Keep Holy the Lord’s Day is not the commandment, it is a catechitecal summary of the commandment. The full commandment is listed in the Catechism and scripture and says nothing about the Lord’s day.

Thats like saying that reading the cliff notes constitutes the entire book.

READ CANON 2176

 

[Realcatholicgk]

LOL… Keep Holy the Lord’s Day is not the commandment, it is a catechitecal summary of the commandment. The full commandment is listed in the Catechism and scripture and says nothing about the Lord’s day.

Thats like saying that reading the cliff notes constitutes the entire book.

**Are there cliff notes on the Bible? :doh2: Actually aren’t the 10 Commandments a little like cliff notes anyway? Happily …

WE HEARD YOU!**

 

[happilycatholic]

Are there cliff notes on the Bible? :doh2: Actually aren’t the 10 Commandments a little like cliff notes anyway? Happily …

WE HEARD YOU!

Sorry.

 

[happilycatholic]

realcatholic:

Rather than posting the big red letters over and over, I thought I’d do this instead.

So, do you think the Commandments are cliffnotes to the Scripture? I’m once again trying to clarify your position.

 

[SDA2RC]

I never said we observe “the Sabbath” I SAID IN PLAIN ENGLISH, WE OBSERVE THE FOURTH (SABBATH) COMMANDMENT BECAUSE IT IS FULFILLED IN THE COMING OF CHRIST, HENCE “THE LORD’S DAY”.

Happily,
The 3rd Commandment is not to observe the Lords Day… its to observe the 7th Day as a SAbbath… Therefore you dont observe the commandment.

You are doing the opposite of what the Biblical and catchetical commandment says… you are observing the first day of the week… the commandment is to observe the last day of the week.

Like I said last night… there is really nothing else I can say. You just dont seem to get it, or dont want to admit it.

Its ok… I dont keep the SAbbath either… but until you admit that you dont observe the commandments, we cant help you understand the scriptural basis for not doing so.

Yes… that means that when the Church says that we observe the Commandments, you will have to wince and say… not really… we observe the commandments as taught and interpreted by the Church, not as given by God.

The problem is that when Catholics or Baptists or anyone else go to Adventists and say “oh yea, we keep the commandments”, we have just showed dishonesty and lost all credibility. They can read and know we dont keep the 7th Day Sabbath… so it is better to be up front and explain that we dont… and explain why and what the Church’s relationship is to the law.

 

[SDA2RC]

READ CANON 2176

I have Happily… it doesnt change my point.