H
happilycatholic
Guest
I am sorry to hear that and I will keep you in my prayers.
Sisterly Love in Christ, (no really, I mean that)
~Tonya
- Status
Sisterly Love in Christ, (no really, I mean that)
~Tonya
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Actually I’ve been trying to find where I don’t agree with you 100%…and I’ve been trying to find where I don’t agree with Marsha and Brandon 100%.Thank you Patrick,
I cut your post down just for the sake of space.
I think this has been really nothing more than a really huge misunderstanding. I read the catechism differently and I think that is okay. I do that because it is the way I was catechized. In other words, I was shown that I could follow the Third Commandment because the Lord’s Day is actually listed under the explaination of the 3d Comm. in the catechism. So I keep it for a different reason.
That’s it in a nutshell. I don’t dump the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut it was very thoughtful and beautifully written. I appreciate it. (even if you don’t agree with me 100%)
But I am concerned and will speak to my Priest at mass.
I’m puzzled because I find that I agree with you, Brandon, and Marsha 100%… I don’t think I’m dull in following this discussion, but I agree with all of you…or maybe it’s just that senility has come early:shrug:
Legalism on this issue can cause much confusion…just read the Gospel accounts of Jesus and the sabbath. Perhaps that’s why Jesus did not spend time elaborating on it. And we have Paul’s record of dealing with these issues in the various churches.
God bless all!!!
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Wooohhhhh…How did you make this turn? I thought you are Catholic HappilyCatholic? Did you write the above reply to Marsha? Our Bibles are all the same…the commandments are all the same in all the Bibles…what Bible are you reading? And why are you telling Marsha that her "Church worships Mary and the Saints…Catholics don’t worship Mary and the Saints.
Did you write that above? Aren’t you Catholic? Now I am confused.
God bless all!!!
R
ralph_g
Guest
Jesus became our Sabbeth!!! Sabbeth means( rest )Jesus is our REST!!!
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Wow, this is actually back on topic!
I don’t usually post Scripture because it ends up being an “argument using the argument”, but consider this if you will:
**“I did not come to abolish the law, I’ve come to fulfill it” **
We all here probably know that’s Matt. 5:17 Taken from any version of the Bible, this particular verse still has the same wording. It’s very short, very consise. It says alot though. Within it, it states a very distinct note of constance and yet it states a note of change. Abolish means to TOTALLY do away with something, not just in part, but totally. So Christ used this word very intentionally. He has not come to totally do away with the law.
In other translations, the words, "destroy, “do away with”, “set aside” and “aborgate” (this last one means to anul, which we all know that means it was never valid) are used. All of which are all ecompassing in nature.
Could it be that this was a “hint” if you will about the Third Commandment? Could it be that this is how we are to view the law once He has accomplished God’s will for Him?
I think this is the very instruction that tells us how to marry the Third Commandment with the coming of Christ. Christ IS the Third Commandment if you believe this statement came out of His mouth. He IS the fulfillment of the Sabbath. He is the change to the law. Not the abolishing of it.
He (by nature of His instruction to the Church and His Redemption of His people) is the reason and all the permission the Church needs to reinterpret the Third Commandment according to the New Covenant.
That would mean we keep them and change the day of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday.
If I wanted to convince an SDA of anything, all I can do is tell the truth. If they want to use the Bible, this is where I’d go. They will refute it of course, but they can refute anything we say. That’s not just an SDA thing, that’s a thing about everyone with any religious faith. Even atheists use the Bible to prove that God is a vengeful and merci-less God while we use it to prove God is a just and merci-ful God.
I don’t usually post Scripture because it ends up being an “argument using the argument”, but consider this if you will:
**“I did not come to abolish the law, I’ve come to fulfill it” **
We all here probably know that’s Matt. 5:17 Taken from any version of the Bible, this particular verse still has the same wording. It’s very short, very consise. It says alot though. Within it, it states a very distinct note of constance and yet it states a note of change. Abolish means to TOTALLY do away with something, not just in part, but totally. So Christ used this word very intentionally. He has not come to totally do away with the law.
In other translations, the words, "destroy, “do away with”, “set aside” and “aborgate” (this last one means to anul, which we all know that means it was never valid) are used. All of which are all ecompassing in nature.
Could it be that this was a “hint” if you will about the Third Commandment? Could it be that this is how we are to view the law once He has accomplished God’s will for Him?
I think this is the very instruction that tells us how to marry the Third Commandment with the coming of Christ. Christ IS the Third Commandment if you believe this statement came out of His mouth. He IS the fulfillment of the Sabbath. He is the change to the law. Not the abolishing of it.
He (by nature of His instruction to the Church and His Redemption of His people) is the reason and all the permission the Church needs to reinterpret the Third Commandment according to the New Covenant.
That would mean we keep them and change the day of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday.
If I wanted to convince an SDA of anything, all I can do is tell the truth. If they want to use the Bible, this is where I’d go. They will refute it of course, but they can refute anything we say. That’s not just an SDA thing, that’s a thing about everyone with any religious faith. Even atheists use the Bible to prove that God is a vengeful and merci-less God while we use it to prove God is a just and merci-ful God.
H
happilycatholic
Guest
No, no, that’s why it’s in quotes. These are questions I would pose to a catholic as an SDA. Marsha and Brandon have stated that they defend the catholic faith to SDAs and that I’m doing so incorrectly.
This is just to let them tell me how they would evangelize an SDA into the Catholic Church
I’m sorry!
No, I’m so totally catholic it’s not funny. Mary’s my momma too!
See post #640
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Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Whewwwww…there for a minute I thought it was time to call up the bus and check into the home!No, no, that’s why it’s in quotes. These are questions I would pose to a catholic as an SDA. Marsha and Brandon have stated that they defend the catholic faith to SDAs and that I’m doing so incorrectly.
This is just to let them tell me how they would evangelize an SDA into the Catholic Church
I’m sorry!
No, I’m so totally catholic it’s not funny. Mary’s my momma too!
See post #640
God bless all!!!
S
SDA2RC
Guest
Actually This started happily, not because we told you that you were doing something wrong… but because **you were trying to correct me as I posted to someone else.
That was your whole “Hold the Phone” comment I quoted again a few posts back. YOU are the one that felt I had said things all wrong and were taking it upon yourself to correct me… This whole thing has been from me defending myself against your “correction” and accusations of being Adventists not Catholic… and that my beliefs are “very Adventist”…LOL Don’t even try to play the martyr… LOL
YOU are the one who claimed I was wrong… I had never posted to you in my life before YOU claimed I was confused about the LAw and not represeting Catholic doctrine. LOL
**I have never seen you defend the CAtholic faith to an Adventist so I dont know if you do it good or not.
You said you were “scared” of your Adventist friends (I am assuming theologically)… we were trying to help you… but … to me its quite obvious you don’t want any help… which is ok too… Have fun…
And yes… you are correct… in my opinion… your grasp of the faith when it comes to the Law and the Church and our relationship to the Bible is very, very, very, elementary. Thats what Marsha and I were trying to address after you attacked my stance… but you have shown in your attitude and snide, and false accusations that you have no interest in learning anything.
S
SDA2RC
Guest
Hey Patrick!Whewwwww…there for a minute I thought it was time to call up the bus and check into the home!
God bless all!!!
How is it going… we need to talk more via e-mail about that book!
H
happilycatholic
Guest
No, not at all.Whewwwww…there for a minute I thought it was time to call up the bus and check into the home!
God bless all!!!
Let me run this by you and Marsha and Brandon as well.
The reason I’m sensitive about this right now is because I’m facing having to get an annulment.
Obviously that is because I would be commiting adultery otherwise. With that said, if we don’t believe we are bound to the Commandments, then we believe we are loosed from them.
If I am loosed from the 7th Commandment, then I am not about to go through getting an anulment. And if I am not bound by that one, how can I be bound by any of them? And if what Marsha and Brandon are saying is true and I’m not bound by any of them, then why even go to confession? If they are just a moral guide and all sin is absolved through Christ, then why put yourself through that?
Now, I wholeheartedly believe that we are bound to them, all of them. But as a catholic on the fence, I could find permission in that to do all sorts of bad things. I might even fall out of my faith with the Church and go somehere else if they are telling me I’m not bound by the Commandments and yet they are making me go to confession and get annulments.
I’m not so worried about evangelizing SDAs as I am keeping our faithful just that, faithful.
And I’m pretty sure that’s the Vatican’s position on putting the Commandments in the catechism.
Otherwise, we’ve got some confused catholics who think, "I’m getting an annulment because the church tells me to and everyone else is right, they’re probably just making money off of it. God doesn’t care one way or another and the Church is flip-flopping’.
And confession is stupid because if you are not bound to sin you are loosed from it. If you are not bound to sin then you have no reason to get rid of it through confession because it cannot keep you from God. And you can’t be in Mortal sin (bound to the sin) so I will receive communion anyway, confession is just a formality the Church makes me go through.
What do you think?
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Okay, you know what, nevemind. I don’t care to go round and round with you anymore. You are just bound to be right.
YOU ARE RIGHT AND I AM WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING I’VE SAID. HAVE A NICE LIFE.
S
SDA2RC
Guest
Happily,
Because we are bound by the New Law, the Gospel and it is required by the Gospel and the New Covenant… it has nothing to do with the Commandments.
If you want to do it because you have bound yourself to the old law… then by all means do it.
I do it because of my Love for the Gospel… you can do it for whatever reason you want.
We dont need a “law” to know sin… That is what we have the Holy Spirit for… There was sin before the law… and the law is written in our hearts, if your part of the New Covenant… not on tablets of stone.
Because we are bound by the New Law, the Gospel and it is required by the Gospel and the New Covenant… it has nothing to do with the Commandments.
If you want to do it because you have bound yourself to the old law… then by all means do it.
I do it because of my Love for the Gospel… you can do it for whatever reason you want.
We dont need a “law” to know sin… That is what we have the Holy Spirit for… There was sin before the law… and the law is written in our hearts, if your part of the New Covenant… not on tablets of stone.
S
SDA2RC
Guest
Happily,
Apparently you still haven’t figured it out…
Its not a matter about who is right and wrong… its about growing in a deeper knowledge of the faith. This isn’t a contest…
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Hey Brandon!!
I’m glad to see you back on the forums…while you were absent I was worried you might have joined a cult
Things are going well…R.C.I.A. is a blessing…and a couple weeks ago I made my first confession (after 50 years the priest and I had a nice chat). I must say that it was completely different from what I always thought about it…it was one of the most blessed events of my life and God’s grace has been so good to me and special since then. I highly recommend it…even to non-Catholics!!!
Yes, we need to talk more about the book via e-mail. Take care my man!!!
God bless all!!!
H
happilycatholic
Guest
I’m sorry I even came on this thread because it has made me doubt my faith in what the Church puts in writing and teaches its catechumen.
I now feel the need to go to my priest with this conversation and get him to convence me that the Church puts what it wants people to believe in the catechism.
The Lord’s Day is right there with the Sabbath under the Third Commandment in the catechism and the catechism tells me in #2072 “No one can despense from them” "They, and note this, “they are ingraved on the human heart”.
Pope John Paul II said this in his Deis Domini letter. Now, I have people trying to tell me otherwise. Maybe the problem here is the word “bound”. I don’t know.
**But now that’s just it, I don’t know where before I did know that if my Church put it there in plain language I was to belive it. **
Now I am doubting. ( and crying a little)
I now feel the need to go to my priest with this conversation and get him to convence me that the Church puts what it wants people to believe in the catechism.
The Lord’s Day is right there with the Sabbath under the Third Commandment in the catechism and the catechism tells me in #2072 “No one can despense from them” "They, and note this, “they are ingraved on the human heart”.
Pope John Paul II said this in his Deis Domini letter. Now, I have people trying to tell me otherwise. Maybe the problem here is the word “bound”. I don’t know.
**But now that’s just it, I don’t know where before I did know that if my Church put it there in plain language I was to belive it. **
Now I am doubting. ( and crying a little)
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Ok…let me first state that I do indeed have a backbone, even though what I’m about to say may seem to be evidence to the contrary.
I agree with what you are saying and also with what Brandon is saying, and at least to me, I cannot see where you all are in disagreement. You are looking at one issue from different levels in my opinion. The Law, and by this I mean the Law that Jesus taught in the Gospels and which apply to us in the New Covenant, written on our hearts, reflected in the 10 commandments, expounded upon by Jesus, is the basis for moral living. Jesus gave authority to His Church for dealing redemptively with His followers who commit sins. When we are outside of moral living…let’s call that sinning, we need to confess and repent and we are forgiven.
You are doing the right thing in my opinion concerning this issue in your life. However, I am not a priest, nor an expert in these matters, so you really need to talk with your priest about this as it affects your life.
And I’m sure that what I just said is of absolutely no help to you…so I’m sorry.
God bless all!!!
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Do not doubt and do not cry…you are ok!! Now relax until you can talk with your priest!! You can believe what you read in the Catechism!!!
God bless all!!!
H
happilycatholic
Guest
I think I may have the answer. I think everyone on this thread thinks that I sum up God’s Will by the Commandments and I most certainly do not. I look to the Gospels and many other things for my everyday living and faith in Christ and His ministry to us. I really love reading the encyclical letters.
Maybe you have this idea that I think I’m “bound” to the Commandments as “law”, but I don’t. But I do believe we are bound by them in that they are fundemental to our lives and our faith and the way we go about it, if you will.
If you continue to say these things (catholics aren’t bound by the commandments) you may evangelize a few SDAs but you’ll lose a few catholics along the way. Because the picture you’re painting is that the Church is the moral law and the mass and confession are the ceremonial aspects the Church created and that takes God out of the equasion altogether.
Please be aware that you are treading on dangerous ground. I love my Church and my faith, but this has damaged it for now because you’ve basically said I can’t trust my Church to put in the catechism what is expected of me.
Brandon, you even said in one of your posts that some times we have to wence and say…well not really, or something like that.
I would never say that to a faithful catholic.
But, I’m just going on and on trying to justify what’s happened here. I’ll leave you to your discussion.
Patrick, I wish you all the best in your journey. I wasn’t aware that you are in RCIA. I loved it so much that I’m sitting in with my friend and getting to “go through it again”. The learning aspects anyway.
It’s a beautiful process. I was baptized at Easter and I can say it was like being born again.
Peace Be With You All!
~Tonya
Maybe you have this idea that I think I’m “bound” to the Commandments as “law”, but I don’t. But I do believe we are bound by them in that they are fundemental to our lives and our faith and the way we go about it, if you will.
If you continue to say these things (catholics aren’t bound by the commandments) you may evangelize a few SDAs but you’ll lose a few catholics along the way. Because the picture you’re painting is that the Church is the moral law and the mass and confession are the ceremonial aspects the Church created and that takes God out of the equasion altogether.
Please be aware that you are treading on dangerous ground. I love my Church and my faith, but this has damaged it for now because you’ve basically said I can’t trust my Church to put in the catechism what is expected of me.
Brandon, you even said in one of your posts that some times we have to wence and say…well not really, or something like that.
I would never say that to a faithful catholic.
But, I’m just going on and on trying to justify what’s happened here. I’ll leave you to your discussion.
Patrick, I wish you all the best in your journey. I wasn’t aware that you are in RCIA. I loved it so much that I’m sitting in with my friend and getting to “go through it again”. The learning aspects anyway.
It’s a beautiful process. I was baptized at Easter and I can say it was like being born again.
Peace Be With You All!
~Tonya
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Tonya, my dear, you are OK!!! Really!!!
Trust me on this…Brandon most assuredly 100% believes you can and should trust our Church and Her teachings…and all that is in the Catechism…at least I feel very confident in saying that, and Brandon, please forgive me if I’ve spoken out of turn for you.And I believe you can and should trust our Church and Her teachings and all that is in the Catechism!!!
Now go forward in confidence with faith!!! We all really are on the same side!!! So have a great evening and praise God that we are all One Body in the unity of the Holy Spirit…in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church…and that we have these blessed truths, teachings, and sacraments!!!
I am so very happy to be a part of this with you all, and pray daily that others will pray to see and receive these blessings as well!!
God bless all!!!
C
Crucified
Guest
First of all - In Christ every believer is totally free from the law.
“We are not under the law, but under grace” (Rom. 6:15).
We are not justified (Rom. 3:19-24), sanctified (Gal. 3:1-3), motivated (II Cor. 5:14), ruled (Tit. 2:11- 12), or glorified (Jude 24-25) by the law, but by grace.
“Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth” (Rom. 10:4). That means that Christ is the fulfillment of the law, the satisfaction of the law, and the termination of the law to all who believe on him unto life everlasting. It means that there is no righteousness to be had, of any kind, to any degree, by our own works of obedience to the law. The only way anyone can have righteousness before God is by faith in Christ. He is " The Lord Our Righteousness " (Jer. 23:6) and we are the righteousness of God in him (Jer. 33:16; II Cor. 5:21).
“Ye are become dead to the law by the body of Christ” (Rom. 7:4). Do you ask what that means? It means that if you are a believer, if Christ died for you, insofar as the law of God is concerned you are dead. It can make no demands upon you. It can require nothing from you. It can do nothing to you. If you and I are in Christ by faith, we have no covenant with the law, no curse from the law, and no commitment to the law.
Therefore Sunday is not the “Christian Sabbath.”
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. " -Colossians 2:16-27
We do not observe the literal sabbath day of the legal dispensation, because Christ is our Sabbath.
We rest in him.
The sabbath day is frequently mentioned in the four gospels and in the book of Acts.
However, it is always mentioned (during that transitional period) in connection with the Jews and Jewish worship in the temple, or in their synagogues. But in the New Testament epistles (Romans through Revelation), the sabbath is mentioned only twice.
In Colossians 2:16-17, the Apostle Paul forbids the observance of any legal sabbath day on the basis of the fact that in Christ believers are entirely free from the law (Rom. 6:14, 15; 7:4; 10:4).
And then the word translated “rest” in Hebrews 4:9 might be translated “sabbath” or “keeping of a sabbath.” The sabbath rest spoken of in the chapter is the blessed rest of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (vv. 3, 4, 9, 10) and the consummate end of that in eternal glory (v. 11).
Therefore those who would impose upon any Christian the legal observance of sabbath days and bring them back in bondage to the law are, according to Scripture - perverting the gospel of Christ.
“We are not under the law, but under grace” (Rom. 6:15).
We are not justified (Rom. 3:19-24), sanctified (Gal. 3:1-3), motivated (II Cor. 5:14), ruled (Tit. 2:11- 12), or glorified (Jude 24-25) by the law, but by grace.
“Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth” (Rom. 10:4). That means that Christ is the fulfillment of the law, the satisfaction of the law, and the termination of the law to all who believe on him unto life everlasting. It means that there is no righteousness to be had, of any kind, to any degree, by our own works of obedience to the law. The only way anyone can have righteousness before God is by faith in Christ. He is " The Lord Our Righteousness " (Jer. 23:6) and we are the righteousness of God in him (Jer. 33:16; II Cor. 5:21).
“Ye are become dead to the law by the body of Christ” (Rom. 7:4). Do you ask what that means? It means that if you are a believer, if Christ died for you, insofar as the law of God is concerned you are dead. It can make no demands upon you. It can require nothing from you. It can do nothing to you. If you and I are in Christ by faith, we have no covenant with the law, no curse from the law, and no commitment to the law.
Therefore Sunday is not the “Christian Sabbath.”
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. " -Colossians 2:16-27
We do not observe the literal sabbath day of the legal dispensation, because Christ is our Sabbath.
We rest in him.
The sabbath day is frequently mentioned in the four gospels and in the book of Acts.
However, it is always mentioned (during that transitional period) in connection with the Jews and Jewish worship in the temple, or in their synagogues. But in the New Testament epistles (Romans through Revelation), the sabbath is mentioned only twice.
In Colossians 2:16-17, the Apostle Paul forbids the observance of any legal sabbath day on the basis of the fact that in Christ believers are entirely free from the law (Rom. 6:14, 15; 7:4; 10:4).
And then the word translated “rest” in Hebrews 4:9 might be translated “sabbath” or “keeping of a sabbath.” The sabbath rest spoken of in the chapter is the blessed rest of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (vv. 3, 4, 9, 10) and the consummate end of that in eternal glory (v. 11).
Therefore those who would impose upon any Christian the legal observance of sabbath days and bring them back in bondage to the law are, according to Scripture - perverting the gospel of Christ.
- Status