why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[japhy]

Sabbath ( Saterday ) has always been the day of reast it cant be changed. even if people chose another day it wont change the fact. so follow man or God…

Actually, the Bible attests to the Church gathering on the Lord’s day (Rev. 1:10), the first day of the week (Acts 20:7, perhaps also 1 Cor. 16:2).

Early Christian history just after Scriptural texts confirms this practice:
[1] But every Lord’s day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. [2] But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. [3] For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations. (Didache XIV)

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead. (St. Ignatius, Magnesians, 9)

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. … Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things… (St. Justin Martyr, Apologia I, 67)

In this same epistle he makes mention also of Clement’s epistle to the Corinthians, showing that it had been the custom from the beginning to read it in the church. His words are as follows: “Today we have passed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.” (Eusebius, Church History, IV, 23.11)

[C]ommand and warn the people to be constant in assembling in the Church, and not to withdraw themselves but always to assemble, lest any man diminish the Church by not assembling, and cause the body of Christ to be short of a member. … And make not your worldly affairs of more account than the word of God; but on the Lord’s day leave every thing and run eagerly to your Church; for she is your glory. Otherwise, what excuse have they before God who do not assemble on the Lord’s day to hear the word of life and be nourished with the divine food which abides for ever? (Didascalia Apostolorum, 13)

 

[Friedrich]

Hello Happilycatholic

I’ve just had an invigorating early Sunday morning walk in the local nature reserve, and that was special.
Thank you once again for differing in a loving Christian way!

God bless

Friedrich

 

[happilycatholic]

Hello Happilycatholic

I’ve just had an invigorating early Sunday morning walk in the local nature reserve, and that was special.
Thank you once again for differing in a loving Christian way!

God bless

Friedrich

You are most welcome!

Peace Be With You and Yours!

 

[mackbrislawn]

Happily:

Did you know that Seventh Day Adventists convert tens of thousands of Catholics to their religion every year? Did you know that they work harder to convert Catholics than they do anybody else? Did you know that theirs is one of the fastest growing religions in the world?

On the other hand, I only know of perhaps a dozen Catholics like Brandon and AdventistNoMore and MarysRoses who left Adventism to become Catholics?

Why do you suppose SDAs are so successful in converting all these thousands of Catholics while Catholics only manage to convert a few dozen?

It is because most Catholics do not understand that the Church has authority over the Bible. Then SDAs show these Catholics from the Bible that they should be doing this or doing that, when the Church says not they don’t have to. The SDAs then point out that because the Church has attempted to change the Law of God it is the Anti-Christ and that Sunday-keeping is the Mark of the Beast seen in Revelation. These are Catholics like yourself who believe that the 10 commandments are still binding and when faced with the fact that we do not obey these commandments they say “well, the Church” changed it. The SDAs say ever so gently, but no one has the authority to change God’s Law, not even God Himself, because His Law is a reflection of His Own Character which never changes. Boom, there go even more Catholics into the SDA denomination.

If those poor Catholics understood that the Old Law which includes the 10 commandments was the Old Covenant, and that we who are under the New Covenant are also under the New Law, they would say to the SDA, “Of course we don’t keep the 10 commandments, we are under the New Covenant and keep the New Law.” Then the SDAs would have nothing to say. But no, these Catholics just keep pouring into the SDA denomination.

Marsha

Yes, Catholics are taught their religion very poorly. And in few cases are they taught how to defend it, so when someone like an SDA comes along, they don’t know what to say.

The SDA’s use the gimmick of the commandments, and the Saturday sabbath as a way of showing how everybody else is wrong. In a similar manner, the Jehovah’s Witnesses use a gimmick, the gimmick of the name Jehovah, and because they use it all the time, that makes the Watchtower the only ture religion.

 

[happilycatholic]

Hello Happilycatholic

I’ve just had an invigorating early Sunday morning walk in the local nature reserve, and that was special.
Thank you once again for differing in a loving Christian way!

God bless

Friedrich

Friedrich:

Can I ask you another question? I saw the excerpt below and it raised some curiosity for me.

This is part of your post to someone on this thread:

“Is it not rather ironical that Adventists teach that God is so loving that He burns up sinners (who will risk the security of Heaven) in hell-fire at the end of the world, while Catholics and Protestants insist that God tortures sinners for millions of years in scorching flames!”

Can you tell me if Scripture says that hell is finite?

Thanks!

~Tonya

 

[RobGentner]

YOU AND I WILL NOT BE FRIENDS MUCH LONGER IF YOU INSERT YOUR OWN RHETORIC INTO MY POSTS AND TRY TO PASS THEM OFF AS PART OF MY POSTS!!!

THAT IS FRAUD AND IF YOU DO IT AGAIN I’LL REPORT YOU TO THE MODS!!!

**
Tonya,Dispite your false allegations, I didn’t Insert my own Rhetoric into your post and try to pass them off as part of your post. To say that would almost be as stupid as to claim that it was done for fraudulent reasons. However, I do agree that my “Power Catholic Motto” mistakenly got inserted into your post while I was editing my comments. I sincerely apologize for that. I would never attempt to make it appear you supported Catholic beliefs in any way. “Fraud is “deliberately” deceiving another for personal gain , or to damage them – usually, to obtain property or services unjustly.” I was doing neither. You are quick to throw slanderous remarks around for errors. But you sympathize with people who do it intentionally all through
out this thread thinking you are being a ‘good catholic" .What accidently happened didn’t even harm your reputation. Your own post do more to harm your good name than anything I could do.
Anyone knowing you realizes that you are not a "powerful’ catholic.
Your’s at best would be “Weak Catholic Motto” “Agree with anyone about anything in order to aide the devil win souls away
from Jesus!.” That is my personal opinion which I am also allowed to possess!

Your hostile remarks were unnecessary. I admit when I make an error. No other time, so I don’t apologize for defending our faith even if you refuse to!

God Bless

**

 

[RobGentner]

Hello Happilycatholic

I’ve just had an invigorating early Sunday morning walk in the local nature reserve, and that was special.
Thank you once again for differing in a loving Christian way!

God bless

Friedrich

**
Hi Fried, :tiphat:
I also had an invigorating Sunday Morning! I went to Mass and consumed the Body and Blood of My Personal Savior Jesus Christ! What a way to worship Our Lord and Savior! God is awesome! Of course I was following the Jesus’ teaching that He provided for all His “real” believers. Like St Peter said: Christians meet “On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread” - Acts 20:7, 11
After that, we had christian fellowship. :grouphug: That is kind of like what the Protestants and you cultist do when you assemble to worship your gods, or pretend to follow our lord Jesus Christ. Oh, I realize it isn’t your fault that you are unable to see the truth. It has to do with your firm attachment to Satan and his false teaching. You just don’t realize the full purpose and intent of Jesus’ commandment to gnaw on his body in the Euchurist. He wants to reside fully in you and provide eternal life. But how can He do that with your not following His true church?

[SIGN] JESUS’ ONLY COMMANDMENT FOR SALVATION**
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty… Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.” John 6:35, 47-58 [/SIGN]

Fried, not meaning to be unkind in any way. I just can’t help but smile whenever I type Fried and think of Satan and the fires of hell! Seems so approprate doesn’t it?

I pray that you can someday enjoy being invigorated by getting to meet Jesus in His Eucharist on a Sunday Morning rather than continue to follw Satan into the gates of Hell,

I sincerely say God Bless!

 

[RobGentner]

Friedrich:

Can I ask you another question? I saw the excerpt below and it raised some curiosity for me.

This is part of your post to someone on this thread:

“Is it not rather ironical that** Adventists **teach that God is so loving that He burns up sinners (who will risk the security of Heaven) in hell-fire at the end of the world, while Catholics and Protestants insist that God tortures sinners for millions of years in scorching flames!”

Thanks!

~Tonya

**Tonya,

Do you see anything wrong in what Fried has said above? You asked the “wrong” question based on what was said not the truth. Didn’t you notice that Fried admitted that Adventist aren’t Protestants? Fried said “Catholics and Protestants insist that God tortures sinners for millions of years in scorching flames!”**

You think that is true? It is a lie. It isn’t what our church teaches at all! If you were an “informed catholic” you would know that and not pay any attention to any SDA lies. I read them and know they are false, you read them and acceot them as true. How dangerous if that? Do you want to know what The Catholic Church teaches about hell? Do you understands that the "eternal “fires” of Hell is the total lost of “GOD”, not an actually physical burning? The Catholic Curch correctly interprets the Bible not foolish followers of Satan.

I won’t bother to try and tell you the truth. For some reason, you think I am the enemy, and in some ways you are correct! I know why but don’t want to frighten you about you becoming possessed by the devil. I will just say that you reject what I say without realizing that it is the obsolute truth as taught by our Church! What amazes me is that you think I would lie to you, but trust SDA’s Why would I do that? What possible gain would there be for me to do that?

My advise: On matter of faith, ask the Catholic church, Not a cultist!

Seriousely, Tonya, don’t you realize you are messing with the wellfare of your eternal soul? Please be careful.
There are lies that you just seem to accept while asking questions that have no real bearing on anything. I hope that you come to realize that I really care about you and your being snatch by Satan and his followers. Satan lives and He is the one that tourtures the sinners :bigyikes: for eternity not million of years. To think of a SDA as anything but a servant of Satan is absolute foolishness.

Click on: Catholic Church’s Teachings on Hell

**BELOW INFORMATION WRITTEN BY CATHOLIC CHURCH.Toyna, If you want to call yourself a Catholic this is what you are suppose to believe. I “Highlighted” Text. I did not change nor add anything. The link above will verity the information provided is from our church. There is more available. I am hapopy to provide you with the truth on what our church and their church believs. We only tell the truth they only deceive!~ SATAN, WHICH DECEIVETH THE WHOLE WORLD-Rev 12:9. There is a battle between truth and error going on inside of each person. That battle is for a person’s soul. **

"The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous **heretical sects **end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, “t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” And in Revelation 14:11, we read: “And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matt. 7:13–14).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs” (CCC 1035). "

[SIGN]THE REALITY OF HELL
By Pope John Paul II
“In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . The words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). But who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard” (pp. 185–6).
[/SIGN]

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Jophy

You said:

Actually, the Bible attests to the Church gathering on the Lord’s day (Rev. 1:10), the first day of the week (Acts 20:7, perhaps also 1 Cor. 16:2).

Early Christian history just after Scriptural texts confirms this practice:

I wish you would seriously look at what your own Catholic theologians said about the `day of the Lord’ quotes in the Bible – every single one of them refers to Judgment Day, and NOT Sunday! (their words, not mine!)

Look in:
www.biblelight.net/chalng.htm

And to be honest with you, even if a million historical books `proved’ that millions of people did things that were NOT according to the Bible soon after Christ’s death, that would not in the least convince me about anything – do you believe in the Bible or in history?

God bless,

Friedrich

 

[japhy]

I wish you would seriously look at what your own Catholic theologians said about the `day of the Lord’ quotes in the Bible – every single one of them refers to Judgment Day, and NOT Sunday! (their words, not mine!)

Articles from the Catholic Mirror do not equate the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

As for the claim that Rev. 1:10’s reference to the Lord’s day is eschatalogical rather than a reference to the first day of the week (because St. John never used that expression for Sunday in the gospel): it makes perfect sense because in the context of the gospel, “the day of the Lord” as the first day of the week wouldn’t make sense, it would be like an anachronism. There hadn’t been a resurrection yet, and then after the resurrection, there hadn’t been the weekly gathering of the disciples to worship and “break bread”. Scriptural evidence points to the beginning of worship on the first day of the week after the Ascension (after Jesus had been lifted up from them).

And to be honest with you, even if a million historical books `proved’ that millions of people did things that were NOT according to the Bible soon after Christ’s death, that would not in the least convince me about anything – do you believe in the Bible or in history?

I believe you’ve created a false dichotomy between Scripture and history. I believe both the Bible and history.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I am ever amazed at the “intellectual myopia” that some people suffer from… maybe if I do the work for you it would be easier to understand the difference between the Sabbath of old to the Sabbath of the new…

**The sabbath in the New Testament

Christ, while observing the Sabbath, set himself in word and act against this absurd rigorism which made man a slave of the day. He reproved the scribes and Pharisees for putting an intolerable burden on men’s shoulders (Matthew 23:4), and proclaimed the principle that “the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath” (Mark 2:27). He cured on the Sabbath, and defended His disciples for plucking ears of corn on that day. In His arguments with the Pharisees on this account He showed that the Sabbath is not broken in cases of necessity or by acts of charity (Matthew 12:3 sqq.; Mark 2:25 sqq.; Luke 6:3 sqq.; 14:5). St. Paul enumerates the Sabbath among the Jewish observances which are not obligatory on Christians (Colossians 2:16; Galatians 4:9-10; Romans 14:5). The gentile converts held their religious meetings on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2) and with the disappearance of the Jewish Christian churches this day was exclusively observed as the Lord’s Day. (See SUNDAY.)**

Hopefully this will illuminate some of you…

We seem to be going round and round regarding this issue, much like the Pharisees as they followed Jesus around trying to “trap” him in order to accuse him.

I believe that what RobHom has shared above, and what HappilyCatholic shared in earlier posts regarding the sabbath commandment in light of the creation of the world, and the Re-creation of our fallen world by the resurrection of Jesus, brings succint scriptural reasons for why Christians are not in violation of the thrid/fourth commandment by worshipping God on Sunday. It is completely and consistently in accordance with God’s will in the New Covenant. The New Covenant is not about which day is kept holy… It is not about days.

So, I would ask everyone on this thread to allow the SDAs a little time and breathing room to answer a few questions. And I would ask the SDAs to answer the following questions with scripture only. Forget the Catholic Catechism, forget the Sunday Mirror, and Forget the writings of Ellen G. White.

So from scripture alone…

1. If you believe that each day of the creation story is a literal 24 hour period, how do you explain there being morning and evening for 3 days before the sun and moon were created?
2. Since there is no command by God in the creation story to Adam and Eve to keep holy the sabbath day, what does the 7th day of creation mean to you in the context of the creation story?
3. From the time of creation and for the next 10 plus generations of people on earth, why is there no mention of the sabbath until the time of Moses?
4. In Jesus teaching regarding the Law and Him being the fulfilment of the Law in Matthew chapters 5-6, why does he not teach about the importance of the sabbath/saturday?
5. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching, mention, or hint that the 7th day sabbath/saturday must be kept?
6. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching about how important the sabbath/saturday will be as a test of fidelity to God at the end of time?

Please show in the scriptures and the scriptures alone the answers to these questions. I know a very interesting story has been created by Ellen G. White that answers these questions, and yet I cannot find this same interesting story in the scriptures.

I hope these questions don’t get lost in this fast moving thread, and I hope that more than one SDA will take part in answering them. I hope that everyone else will give them the freedom to answer without jumping in immediately and arguing.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to thoughtfully and prayerfully answer these questions!

God bless all!!!

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Patrick

How good to hear from you again! You are right – as long as SDA’s believe ONLY in the Bible, and Catholics believe in Tradition PLUS the Bible (but Tradition is greater than the Bible), then we will just go round and round in circles, never meeting each other.

I will happily try to answer your questions from the Bible, and I am sure some other SDA’s could do a better job too, but FIRST read the section I referred to earlier:

www.biblelight.net/chalng.htm

90% of your questions will be answered VERY eloquently by your own theologians, better than I ever could. Let me know what you think of their brilliant Bible-based arguments!

God bless till then,

Friedrich

 

[ralph_g]

Only God knows who will be in Heaven! Only God is the judge! God wants all to be saved! than Adventists in heaven or not is not the issue. Not to mention that unless the Pastor is all knowing, he has no clue as to who is living up to what “light” they have. God judges the hearts of Man… not your pastors.

The issue is whether the teachings and messages of the Adventist Church to the rank and file member of the Church are anti-Catholic. I think it is quite easy to demonstrate that they are… The Adventist Church is certainly not pro-Catholic… it is VERY anti-Catholic.

Secondly… I am confused why you said to “drop” the prophetess reference below, when speaking of Ellen White. The Adventist Church claims that EGW had the gift of prophecy. If one has the gift of prophecy why would you not call her a prophetess?

A prophet is: "

1. a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration. A person regarded as, or claiming to be, an inspired teacher or leader.

This is what the SDA Church claims of EGW and what EGW Claims of herself. Why are you ashamed of calling her what your church believes she is?

In fact: Here is a list of books available from the Adventist Book Center right now… the official store of Adventist literature and media.

“The PROPHET and Her Critics” adventistbookcenter.com/Detail.tpl?sku=0816320578

Prophetic Inspiration
adventistbookcenter.com/Detail.tpl?sku=1921198036

Prophets are Human (Answer to Difficult Questions about EGW)
adventistbookcenter.com/Detail.tpl?sku=187601069X

W.C. White and Ellen G. White: The Relationship between the Prophet and Her Son.
adventistbookcenter.com/Detail.tpl?sku=1883925010

If EGW is not the SDA Prophetess then I think someone forgot to tell the writers of your denominations books. All of these books/DVD’s are published be either Pacifica Press or Review and Herald, both official publishing houses of the Church.

You said the SDA Church has never had a teaching about what Church people join? Explain what you mean please.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Patrick

How good to hear from you again! You are right – as long as SDA’s believe ONLY in the Bible, and Catholics believe in Tradition PLUS the Bible (but Tradition is greater than the Bible), then we will just go round and round in circles, never meeting each other.

I will happily try to answer your questions from the Bible, and I am sure some other SDA’s could do a better job too, but FIRST read the section I referred to earlier:

www.biblelight.net/chalng.htm

90% of your questions will be answered VERY eloquently by your own theologians, better than I ever could. Let me know what you think of their brilliant Bible-based arguments!

God bless till then,

Friedrich

Hi Friedrich,

It is nice to hear from you again too! Unfortunately, some of my previous posts to you have gone unanswered because of the fast pace of posting on this thread. But I think my questions now are more succint, and hopefully will not go unanswered.

I read the entirity of the link you posted above. I’m surprised that you accept the teachings of Catholics as proof for what you believe…but then I too have discovered that The Catholic Church provides all the answers for those who are seeking the Truth!

But back to my questions in **Post # 728 **above (so they don’t get lost in this fast moving thread).

100% of my questions have been answered before I read your article. My questions are to any SDA willing to answer them, I wasn’t asking me

In all of these discussions, the point is consistenly made that what SDAs believe is from the Bible only and Ellen G. White is not where SDAs get their beliefs.

So from the scriptures only, without the Sunday Mirror, the Saturday Quarterly, or the narrative of Ellen G. White, I eagerly await the scriptural answers from SDAs!

And if possible please don’t say something and then list 10 scripture references. I checked a scripture reference in another thread by a SDA (not you Friedrich, nor Protestant101) in Psalms regarding the “everlasting covenant” in regards to the sabbath, and when I looked it up it was talking about the Davidic Covenant, not the sabbath of the 10 commandments in the Mosaic Covenant.

I know it is difficult in this forum and format to get all our thoughts out as clearly as we’d like to, so let’s take our time and be as thorough as we can!

Again, thanks in advance for your answers!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Happilycatholic,
You said:

Can you tell me if Scripture says that hell is finite?

Thanks!

~Tonya

Another person quoted:

THE REALITY OF HELL
By Pope John Paul II
"In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . .

Obviously you are referring to those few verses like Revelation 14:9-11.
``If anyone worships the beast and his image… He will be tormented with burning sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image…’’

When read in isolation, they paint a terrifying picture of eternal torment with the holy angels and God watching this horrific scene forever…
Many of our fellow believers love the PARABLE of Lazarus and the rich man – without arguing about it – a parable is a story to teach you a lesson. All aspects of this `story’ can not be real, otherwise

• All rich people burn in hell
• The poor go to heaven
• In heaven men lie `in Abraham’s bosom – for how long? I couldn’t stand that!
• In heaven we will be able to `chat’ with the suffering sinners in hell, just across the gap!

Obviously the lesson is clear: Even if the rich man COULD send somebody from `hell’ (a common belief in those days) to warn his brothers, they would not listen…

I believe that any Scripture section read in isolation, gives only half a picture, perhaps a distorted picture – so from Genesis to Revelation we need to look for an OVERAL PICTURE to get a more accurate version. ``Hell’’ is used for 4 words in the Bible:

1. Sheol – general meaning of death, as opposed to life: Gen. 37:35 All his (Jacob’s) sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. `No,’’ he said, in mourning will I go down to the grave (hell) to my son.’’
2. Tartaros – place of banishment for evil angels, when thrown out of heaven, 2 Pet.2:4: ``For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment.’’ Compare to Rev 12: 9 – this earth!
3. Hades, like Sheol, refers to the grave, where all men, good and evil, go at death: referring to Peter’s sermon about Christ: ``because you will not abandon me to the grave,(hell) nor will you let your Holy One see decay.’’
4. Gehenna – the Valley of Gehenna near Jerusalem, where fires burnt constantly to burn rubbish. Used symbolically by Jesus to refer to the destruction of the dead in the final or `second’ death at the end of the Millennium, Matt. 5:29, 30: ``It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell…’’

Now for the bigger picture:
God does NOT enjoy punishing sinners!
Ezek. 18:30-32 Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!’’ Is. 28:21: The Lord will rise up as he did at Mount Perazim, he will rouse himself as in the Valley of Gibeon – to do his work, his strange work, and perform his task, his alien task.’’

Right now there is NO hell fire burning yet!
``As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be AT THE END OF THE AGE. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin an all who do eveil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’’

Hell fire will burn ON THIS EARTH!
Proverbs 11:31: ``If the righteous receive their due ON EARTH, how much more the ungodly and the sinner! See also Rev. 7-10

Hell fire will BURN SINNERS UP TO ASHES!
Malachi 4:1-3 Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire, says the Lord Almighty. NOT A ROOT OR A BRANCH WILL BE LEFT TO THEM… But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. Then you will trample down the wicked; THEY WILL BE ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET ON THE DAY WHEN I DO THESE THINGS,’’ says the Lord Almighty.

When God portrays hell fire as burning forever or eternally, the RESULTS will be eternal!
Jude 7: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of ETERNAL FIRE. compare with 2 Peter 2:6: if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by BURNING THEM TO ASHES, …’’
Here ETERNAL FIRE=BURNING THEM TO ASHES!
Sodom and Gomorrah don’t exist today, most likely under the Dead Sea – eternal results, but NOT burning today!

According to Rev. 20:7-9 Satan and his followers will surround the New Jerusalem that has just descended from heaven after the Millennium, and fire will descend from Heaven to destroy them – can you imagine saints enjoying Paradise for millions of years while watching their loved ones writhing and screaming in agony outside the city? That sounds SICK to me!

Jesus said: ``For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not PERISH but have ETERNAL LIFE.’’ John 3:16 (Note that Perish is the opposite of Eternal Life – to me `perish’ means DEAD/die, NOT BURN FOREVER…)

Hope that helps a bit – not to argue about, but just to have another perspective on the bigger picture of our loving God!

God bless,

Friedrich

 

[happilycatholic]

**Tonya,Dispite your false allegations, I didn’t Insert my own Rhetoric into your post and try to pass them off as part of your post. To say that would almost be as stupid as to claim that it was done for fraudulent reasons. However, I do agree that my “Power Catholic Motto” mistakenly **got inserted into your post while I was editing my comments. I sincerely apologize for that. I would never attempt to make it appear you supported Catholic beliefs in any way. “Fraud is “deliberately” deceiving another for personal gain , or to damage them – usually, to obtain property or services unjustly.” I was doing neither. You are quick to throw slanderous remarks around for errors. But you sympathize with people who do it intentionally all through
out this thread thinking you are being a 'good catholic" .What accidently happened didn’t even harm your reputation. Your own post do more to harm your good name than anything I could do.
Anyone knowing you realizes that you are not a "powerful’ catholic.
Your’s at best would be “Weak Catholic Motto” "Agree with anyone about anything in order to aide the devil win souls away
**from Jesus!." That is my personal opinion which I am also allowed to possess! **

Your hostile remarks were unnecessary. I admit when I make an error. No other time, so I don’t apologize for defending our faith even if you refuse to!

**God Bless **

Look, I realize this is not the place for this conversation. I will say this though, you like to call people names, make false accusations and throw your very pointed opinions around like candy. When someone tells you they don’t like what you happen to say, you get all upset and start the whole process over again.

You don’t know me. You have no earthly idea what kind of catholic I am. I can tell you this though, I don’t care for your brand of catholicsim and I WILL tell you so every single time you cross the line with me.

I will not stand by and let you speak to me as if you are some kind of authority. I’ve tried to be “nice” about this, but every time I turn around you’ve got some opinion of me stuck in some post to someone else.

You and I don’t have to be friends. You just keep your comments out of my posts and everything will be fine.

 

[happilycatholic]

Tonya,

First of all, I’m not looking to him for a “teacher” to tell me how to worship. I know my faith. I think I’ve proven that here.

I’m asking questions, unlike most people here who are trying to convert. I’m not. I just want to know the other point of view so when I say something, I know what I’m talking about.

Maybe why that’s why I DO know what they belive. It’s because I let a person tell ME.

Unlike a lot of people, I truly did come here to learn. Not to convert, evangelize, or prove how smart I am (or am not, in most cases).

 

[happilycatholic]

Friedrich:
Hi Friedrich:

---

**All good points, however, none of the content speaks of hell being finite only the fires of hell. It only speaks in terms of the physical form “burned to ashes” etc. **

---

But there is also plenty of Scripture that says the fires of hell are eternal: Matt. 9:43 And if thy hand …, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

---

Take this into consideration as well: all souls are eternal. Whether your soul is going to Heaven or hell, it is eternal. There is nothing that I know of in Scripture that refers to the soul being temporary.

---

Even though sinners will be burned to ashes as in your example here: Malachi 4:1-3 ``Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. …THEY WILL BE ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET ON THE DAY WHEN I DO THESE THINGS,’’ says the Lord Almighty.

---

Their souls will be consumed in an eternal hell. You are assuming the ashes are the end result. The fires may be finite, the damnation of hell is eternal and eternal damnation is the result of sin. That is, the soul’s eternal separation from God or hell.

---

Personal Opinion: The fire may be symbolic of burning away every last “connection” the soul has to God as in Matt. 25:46: “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.

---

One last thing, the opposite of Eternal Life is not “to perish” or to cease to exist, it’s Eternal Death. To exist in death or separation from Life, which is God. “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.”

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Just my two-cents worth.

---

** **

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I posted this elsewhere, but it also fits this thread;** Scriptures teach against any new Christian theology that tries to exist outside the One Holy Catholic Apostolic church.**

Colosians 2; 16 **Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath. 8 **17 These are shadows of things to come; the reality belongs to Christ.
18 Let no one disqualify you, delighting in self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, 9 inflated without reason by his fleshly mind,

2 John 7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh; such is the deceitful one and the antichrist. 5
9 Anyone who is so “progressive” 7 as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him in your house or even greet him;
11 for whoever greets him shares in his evil works.

1 Tim.1: 3 I repeat the request I made of you when I was on my way to Macedonia, that you stay in Ephesus to instruct certain people not to teach false doctrines
4 **or to concern themselves with myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the plan of God that is to be received by faith.
5 The aim of this instruction is love from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith. 6 Some people have deviated from these and turned to meaningless talk,
7 wanting to be teachers of the law, but without understanding either what they are saying or what they assert with such assurance. **

1 Timothy 6; 3 **Whoever teaches something different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching
4 is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid disposition for arguments and verbal disputes. From these come envy, rivalry, insults, evil suspicions,
5 and mutual friction among people with corrupted minds, who are deprived of the truth, supposing religion to be a means of gain.
6 Indeed, religion with contentment is a great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into the world, just as we shall not be able to take anything out of it. **

2 Peter 2: 1 **There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their licentious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.
3 In their greed they will exploit you with fabrications, but from of old their condemnation has not been idle and their destruction does not sleep. **

1John 2: 18 Children, it is the last hour; 9 and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour.
20 But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, 11 and you all have knowledge.
22 **Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well. **24 Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 13
25 And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life.
26 I write you these things about those who would deceive you.

1 John 4: 1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 **This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,
3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. **4 You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5 They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them.
6We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.

Galatians 1: 6** I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel
7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! **
11** Now I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel preached by me is not of human origin.
12 For I did not receive it from a human being, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ. ** (If a new christian teaching aint from Jesus, then it is false teaching, recall who your founder is , if it aint Jesus, then it is a false teaching according to sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture )

Peace be with you

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Look, I realize this is not the place for this conversation. I will say this though, you like to call people names, make false accusations and throw your very pointed opinions around like candy. When someone tells you they don’t like what you happen to say, you get all upset and start the whole process over again.

Truthfully I have never been upset at anyone actually. As a christian I have an obligation to help others reach Heaven. I do not have a responsibility to pull them through the door. Sometimes I am assertive because it is an effective technique. Before you can construct, sometimes you have to destruct. I have never called a person a name that wasn’t true or “accurate”. Unkind, maybe but people need to know what they are in the eyes of God and His church! I would not call a SDA a christian. Many of them don’t consider themselves Protestants because to them we are the same because of the “sabbath” belief. Many Protestant denominations about 1500 or more agree that SDA is a “cult”. The Catholic Church accepts their Baptism, because of “form” My “personal opinion” is that we shouldn’t, but our church makes the laws. Since, it doesn’t affect my salvation, I actually don’t care! Seriously, I have made no “false” accusations and the very pointed opinions that you opject with are from the Catholic Church “without my personal interpretation”. So you have a problem with the CC, not me for what I say! I even agree that people don’t have to agree with anything the Catholic Church says unless they think they are Catholics or desire to become Catholics. I will not allow them to tell us what we are “required” to believe from their twisted, distorted, devil driven point of view! That wouldn’t be Catholic. As far as what they want to believe, they can follow their religion straight into Hell. Their master is awaiting them!

You don’t know me. You have no earthly idea what kind of catholic I am. I can tell you this though, I don’t care for your brand of catholicsim and I WILL tell you so every single time you cross the line with me.

That is true. Ditto. My brand of Catholicism is called Roman Catholic Catholicism!. You should read up on it, you could learn a lot of “truth”. My approach is called “in your face” It isn’t the nicest approach but it offers no compromise like our religion and God doesn’t. I respect your right to have your opinion and technique with dealing with people. However, I can not nor will I not permit you to mislead or misrepresent our Church’s teachings with your “personal opinion” . Its an Honesty thing with me, sorry!

I will not stand by and let you speak to me as if you are some kind of authority.

The Catholic Church is the authority in all things Catholic, not I. What the SDA believe is their business. I have never been to a SDA site if they have them, nor any desire to go there. If they come into our house, they should learn of our Church’s beliefs. My opinion of you is very simple. You seem to be wanting to learn of SDA rather than explaining Catholicism. You actually think they respect you and will answer your questions truthfully. That I find naive at best stupid at worse. I actually “like” your personality. I think you are kind and caring. I am also, just in a different manner.

I’ve tried to be “nice” about this, but every time I turn around you’ve got some opinion of me stuck in some post to someone else.

**An I am not allowed to do that? You do the same actually. **

You and I don’t have to be friends. You just keep your comments out of my posts and everything will be fine.

** I am sorry, you must start your own forum if you are going to attempt to make the rules. You don’t have the aurhority to tell me what to do, the same as I have no authority to tell you what to do. I can ask, request and explain, but I nor you can demand or require anyone to do anything . If I could, we would all go to heaven! Jesus died for all our sins. We have the right to reject His sacrafice.That is called free will.

You have no God given authority to restrict my free will to post, now do you? You can “ignore” me, but you can not “control” me.

That was a very kind and forceful post, I thank you for your opinion. But that was all it was. Feel better now? I wrote it down, if I ever need one I will refer to the list of "People Who’s Opinion Doesn’t Matter and see if I can use anything you provided!

And to remain true to the OP “why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?” Because The REAL CHURCH says that Sunday is the SABBATH, anyone who doesn’t follow the Catholic Church’s Teachings is WRONG!"

God Bless! **