Why is the Catholic Church hated so much?

[benedictus2]

.They view homosexuality as being every bit as legitimate as heterosexuality and therefore, the CC is oppressive wrt its position on homosexuality.

And the paedophiles think those who arrest them as oppresive. But of course in your paradigm, everything is permissible because we make our own truth. So paedophiles, rapists and suicide bombers - their perspective is equally valid.

They view women as being equal in every way with men and therefore, the CC is oppressive wrt its position on women priests.

And show their utter ignorance of Christian view. Now of course you are free to accept them since you have eschewed the Christian view. But why demand that of those who want to keep faith with Christ?

They see nothing wrong with birth control and therefore, they see the CC position WRT birth control as needlessly contributing to disease and poverty.

And they see nothing period. They see not the depravity nor corruption of their view. They don’t want to see.

A couple of things in response: First, I think you have neglected Bob’s rather recent past. Sure Bob has cleaned up his act lately, but it wasn’t that long ago that he was quite the nasty bully in the neighbourhood (ie burning people at the stake, inquisitions etc.)

Except that the neigbours were even nastier but in their propaganda managed to hide that fact. Furthermore, the neighour having bought the propaganda of the father of lies started manufacturing lies themselves. Bob slapped a woman but the neighbour neighbour told everyone that Bob had beaten the woman to death with a baseball bat and that he did it after he raped her. But this neighbour conveniently did not let out that Bob caught him with the wife of his best friend and over heard them plotting the murder of said best friend.

Bob clearly disliked his neighbours and went on record that every other neighbour was damned to hell.

Bob loved the neighbours and he was telling them that if they don’t watch out pain and suffering will ensure from what they are doing.

But Bob just cannot leave it at that because Christ had said that one must correct one’s brother else one becomes responsible for the brother’s perdition.

Recently Bob has “clarified” that statement and has kinda reversed himself. The other thing is that Bob has let little Joey do a lot of his dirty work (ie St Bartholomew’s day massacre), but when the neighbours complain about the damage that Joey has done, Bob merely says, “Well, it wasn’t me. I never told him to do that. I’ll give Joey a stern talking to.” The neighbours think Bob should take more responsibility for Joey’s actions.

But what the neighbour was not willing to admit (and hid very well) was that they were responsible for the massacre of Bob’s kin and even their own kin (The protestant inquisition).

Not only that, the lies that they spread caused people to think that sinning is the same as being holy. They twisted the truth and the neighbours bought it.

Second, (and now I’ll break from the analogy) consider how the CC comes across with its official statements. According to the CC, Protestant Churches aren’t real churches.

They are real churches just can’t be called the a member of the the One True Church. Why would they even want to be considered Christian Churches when by the very act of setting up their own Church they have already thumbed their nose at Christ.

Instead, they are merely ecclesiastical communities. Further, Protestants are called “separated brethren” b/c they are separated from the one true Church…they are separated doctrinally from the Truth.

Which happens to be true. Just look at the amount of doctrinal errors that they have come up with? . You can tell the tree by it’s fruit.

Compared to where the CC has been in the past, this is a very conciliatory position. Nevertheless, consider how you would feel if a Protestant Church approached your local Catholic Church as with this official statement:

You mean un Deformed doctrine. The Protestants came up with the deformed doctrine. So we would be quite happy be told that we don’t have deformed doctrine.

• We also don’t call your community a “church” b/c your priest and sacraments are not legitimate. Through friendship and interaction with us, we hope that your walk will become closer to the truth. In any event, we rejoice in the fact that, notwithstanding the deficiencies in your Ecclesiastical Community, it is possible for (some of) you to still be saved through a spiritual membership in our Church, the One True Church *

So you are saying you feel hurt by the truth? The truth does not hurt unless it ought to.

Tell me, what percentage of your congregation would find that arrogant and offensive?..keeping in mind that all I have really done is put the shoe on the other foot and have the Protestant Church saying about the CC what the CC says about Protestant Churches.

The truth does not hurt unless it ought to.

 

[wisdomseeker]

**Quote:
Tell me, what percentage of your congregation would find that arrogant and offensive?..keeping in mind that all I have really done is put the shoe on the other foot and have the Protestant Church saying about the CC what the CC says about Protestant Churches. **

There is no such thing. protestants have no church. There is only one Church the CC built by Christ. so called protestants churches are invention of man therefore cannot be called churches. we only regard Church One that was Built by Christ and not by man.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Many times what people forget is that some people love to ‘hate’. They get a kind of high out of it. So they will look for reasons to hate the object they despise. It doesn’t have to be a Church, it can be a family member, a neighbor, a co-worker.

This is very true and can be seen everywhere.

I really I hope I am not opening a can of worms by mentioning these extremely controversial recent events, but look at some of them and the hatred there.

1. Look at the Casey Anthony trial. So many people hated Casey Anthony and even the jury members without reason (especially the jury). This hatred even led them to be careless towards any truth. Those people only wanted to Ms. Anthony to say one thing and that is for her to admit she killed Caylee WHETHER OR NOT SHE ACTUALLY DID DO IT. That means only one thing: they do not care about the truth. That is how much their hatred stained their own viewpoint. There was even some Christian with pictures on a picket board and one of picture had turned red. She asumed it was a “sign from God” to do something about the verdict. God told her? How in the world did she know that was not Caylee’s plea to them to just leave her mother alone? Poor Caylee (if that was the case; I don’t know and neither did that Christian.)

And then, the lightning hitting the tree where little Caylee was found… People couldn’t seriously believe that that was a sign from God saying “it is done; the verdict has been reached. Now, everybody needs to shutup about it”.

(Keep in mind, I am not talking about everybody who disagreed. There were many who “kept their cool” and actually had legitimate reasons why they believed she was guilty. I am talking about those who hated Casey Anthony because they relished in it. And from the news channels, it was very easy to tell.)

I will remain indifferent to the verdict here.

1. The homosexual teenager who killed himself in August because he was bullied… That is tantamount to what JustaServant just said. Did those bullies really actually mean what they said? Or did they say those things because it was the “cool thing to do”? Or was it because they “loved to hate”? Whatever the answer the answers, the third question will be a trumpeting “yes”. There was absolutely no reason for that kid to be bullied other than because the other kids loved to hate him.

I am sure there are many other examples, but these are the ones that stick out to me.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I think I forgot to say my point in my last post.

People hate because they love to hate. They rationalize and in the end, assume their hatred is justified. People hate the Catholic Church for this very reason.

The epitome of this is in a website called www.jesus-is-savior.com.

It contains more than enough hatred for the Catholic Church (as well as many other religions, except itself of course). It has “God hates fags”, “God hates John Paul II”, “God hates the Queen of Heaven”, etc… Yet, the maker has the audacity to say it is not a hate site. That is a big fat lie if I ever saw one. The maker thinks it is justified because they have rationalized it and threw a Bible verse into it to make it seem legitimate.

 

[JustaServant]

One great example Gregg is found right in the Old Testament. Saul hated David with a hatred that drove him completely mad.
Or even our Savior, look at how quickly they relished in the hate.
They might use different words for it, but it amounts to the same destructive actions.

I beleive the one aspect of it is a sense of superiority. Notice how condesending fundamentalists are to Catholics when they come to CAF.
The site you linked is a good example. Fundamentalists find it difficult to “fellowship” with those different from themselves. They display a superior, elitist attitude of belonging to a privileged group.
I believe one of the reasons fundamentalists think this way has to do with living in a fantasy world of their own making. They look to a reality that never existed, and hope for a Utopia that never will exist. When struck by the fact that it does not, it destroys their illusions and they lapse into cynicism and depression.
They deal with this by altering reality through ‘separation’ from whatever or whoever is not like themselves and an end-times fairy tale which allows them to press on in world that does not accept them.
“Fellowshipping” with a group who truly believe they are better than others can be a surreal experience. It leads logically to exclusion based on reasons that hardly fit into their “Biblical world-view”. Many times it is based on race, class, education, and sex.
The sad part is, the longer one “fellowships” with fundamentalists, “separation” from them becomes a relief.

 

[Little_Mary]

One great example Gregg is found right in the Old Testament. Saul hated David with a hatred that drove him completely mad.
Or even our Savior, look at how quickly they relished in the hate.
They might use different words for it, but it amounts to the same destructive actions.

I beleive the one aspect of it is a sense of superiority. Notice how condesending fundamentalists are to Catholics when they come to CAF.
The site you linked is a good example. Fundamentalists find it difficult to “fellowship” with those different from themselves. They display a superior, elitist attitude of belonging to a privileged group.
I believe one of the reasons fundamentalists think this way has to do with living in a fantasy world of their own making. They look to a reality that never existed, and hope for a Utopia that never will exist. When struck by the fact that it does not, it destroys their illusions and they lapse into cynicism and depression.
They deal with this by altering reality through ‘separation’ from whatever or whoever is not like themselves and an end-times fairy tale which allows them to press on in world that does not accept them.
“Fellowshipping” with a group who truly believe they are better than others can be a surreal experience. It leads logically to exclusion based on reasons that hardly fit into their “Biblical world-view”. Many times it is based on race, class, education, and sex.
The sad part is, the longer one “fellowships” with fundamentalists, “separation” from them becomes a relief.

Hi Justaservant, , nice to see you again. Months ago I messaged you about my fundamentalist brother in law. Your post here describes him perfectly. Spot on.

 

[Jack_Bauer]

Newcreation2009,
Thank you for posting. This is a perfect example of what Catholics complain about.
You fed right into this post of exactly what we, Catholics, are baffled at why you would not believe Catholic teaching parts from much of what you support. The problem I have with this is that no matter how many times we respond to you and those like you, you usually reject what we explained because you don’t like our explanation, don’t understand it or simply regurgitate the same old anti-Catholic melarchy contained in your iteration of your perception. WE, Catholics, don’t even believe what you say we believe.

1. Same teaching
2. Exactly, but if a doctor has a cure for a disease, you must participate to receive the medication in order to be healed. It is the Grace of God, but faith is the evidence of things hoped for and faith without works is dead. Just read the bible, not just a couple of verses that support your belief.
3. purgatory is exactly scriptural. The idea of how long it takes to get purified is not contained in the scripture, but if you follow up on actual Catholic teaching, not this stuff some of us, confused Catholics, believed to take eternity… that’s wrong. We don’t know. It could be a split second, it could be a millennial, Something people fail to remember, is that God is not bound by time and space… that’s scriptural… just as Paul.
   4)… show me where it says that in the bible. Have you made your own majisterium?
4. 6)EXACTLY, what we believe. This is another misconception perpetrated by ignorant Catholics and Protestants determined not to learn. Think in terms of “Time and Space” God transcends time and space, therefore, when the mass is said, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is NOT a resacrifice but rather makes the first and only sacrifice of Christ on the cross present. When we sing, say "Holy, Holy, Holy Lord, God of Power and might, Heaven and Earth are full of your glory. Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord, Hosanna in the Highest.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctus. The Church teaches that heaven comes down on earth in the context of the mass and we are transported through time and space to calvary, at the actual foot of the cross. That is why the terms “re-presentation of the sacrifice” or “sacrifice of the mass”. The mass makes all of us present before God, all of salvation history, angles and saints. It’s a miracle that is often misinterpreted and misunderstood by many. You should read about the mass. Scott Hahn has a good short book on it, “The Lambs Supper”.
5. What are you trying to say?
6. Another example of evidence towards misinterpreting of scripture and ignoring real world history. heaven forbid a woman that has a baby not have sex. We know that Joseph can’t control himself. This relationships was common in Judaic history, particularly during this time. Joseph may have already had children or these were Jesus’ cousins. We really don’t know for sure, but when we turn to Jewish law, customs and culture, it would have been very scandalous for Jesus’ “alleged brothers and sisters” not to take care of Mary upon Jesus’ death. Please take the time to read Jewish teaching, customs and culture from the time of Christ. Don’t create your own meaning just because you haven’t the time or desire to find the truth.
7. 2 Timothy 3:16 - 18, typical Protestant regergitation of proof texting mixed with misconceptions of modern people trying to make something fit their current world of beliefs. Notice that Paul is referring to this “from birth”… which very clearly implies that the New Testament hadn’t bee written yet. No where does it say bible only. The bible is a reflection of Church teaching. Nothing you can come up with that is truly interpreted in context contradicts Catholic Church teaching. Why? Because the Church put it together. How in the world do you think the bible came to us? It didn’t fall out of the sky. And if the Church was so wicked and cunningly evil as you seem to imply, it could have easily deleted these passages and no one would have ever known for sure. The truth is that there is no evidence to support your claims. You are acting according wot what someone brainwashed you to believe. I know, because I too used to believe the same thing, pulling up the same passages of scripture you’ve tried to wittingly use against the Catholic Church…

I’m surprised you didn’t deny the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Try reading Ignatius of Antioch’s letter to the Smyrnaeans before you answer this question. Read John 6. Read Matt 23, Matt 28, 2 Thesolonians 2 (particularly verse 15). Sacred Tradition, not mans tradition, is what produced the information to include in the bible. It doesn’t contain the entire deposit of faith, but much of it. The authority given to bishops was very clear in Matt 13 and 28 to bind and loose as well as to forgive sins. Protestants just like to ignore, falsely interpret or twist the meaning that is not there. It’s like the elephant in the room that can’t be explained.

And now I see just how confused you are. You went to Catholic schools. No wonder your so confused. The largest number of dissenters work for the Church in Catholic education. That’s why I pulled my children out of Catholic school. Shame on the administration and bishops for not correcting this error. But, it may not be their fault. So many Catholics lie about what they believe to get the jobs and then they teach heresy behind the bishop’s back. Unfortunately, more than half of the Catholic teachers do not obey the teachings of the Church.

 

[JustaServant]

So, that is why Christians HATE…

What a testimony. And thanks for being a living example.
Oh, by the way before Eric makes you go away permanently, there is no such thing as a “former Catholic”, you were baptized Catholic, you are still a Catholic…
Sorry.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

I would highly suggest newbies to read the forum rules before posting.

 

[wisdomseeker]

One great example Gregg is found right in the Old Testament. Saul hated David with a hatred that drove him completely mad.
Or even our Savior, look at how quickly they relished in the hate.
They might use different words for it, but it amounts to the same destructive actions.

I beleive the one aspect of it is a sense of superiority. Notice how condesending fundamentalists are to Catholics when they come to CAF.
The site you linked is a good example. Fundamentalists find it difficult to “fellowship” with those different from themselves. They display a superior, elitist attitude of belonging to a privileged group.
I believe one of the reasons fundamentalists think this way has to do with living in a fantasy world of their own making. They look to a reality that never existed, and hope for a Utopia that never will exist. When struck by the fact that it does not, it destroys their illusions and they lapse into cynicism and depression.
They deal with this by altering reality through ‘separation’ from whatever or whoever is not like themselves and an end-times fairy tale which allows them to press on in world that does not accept them.
“Fellowshipping” with a group who truly believe they are better than others can be a surreal experience. It leads logically to exclusion based on reasons that hardly fit into their “Biblical world-view”. Many times it is based on race, class, education, and sex.
The sad part is, the longer one “fellowships” with fundamentalists, “separation” from them becomes a relief.

Yes, they call us arrogant for defending the Church and the Teachings of Jesus is Truth. Yet, i remember reading Scott Hahn saying that Catholics are humble by nature. when he saw a Catholic he saw a humble person.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Because she is the true church.

 

[JustaServant]

Yes, they call us arrogant for defending the Church and the Teachings of Jesus is Truth. Yet, i remember reading Scott Hahn saying that Catholics are humble by nature. when he saw a Catholic he saw a humble person.

What is sad is the fact that Anti-Catholics like newcreation cannot even see how they offend others by what they say. I had an old world aunt once who would use the ‘n’ word all the time around black folks and could not for the life of her understand why they were upset.

C’mon newcreation, come out and play, we won’t bite.

 

[Jack_Bauer]

What a testimony. And thanks for being a living example.
Oh, by the way before Eric makes you go away permanently, there is no such thing as a “former Catholic”, you were baptized Catholic, you are still a Catholic…
Sorry.

Yes. He’s still Catholic. No way to wash that away.

 

[JustaServant]

(1) anyone who believes and follows Jesus Christ is a saint, we don’t have to ‘perform miracles’; (No one has to be ‘‘canonized’’)

I. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

II. God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer
1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

 

[JustaServant]

(2) God’s grace (unmeritted, unearned favor) is sufficient, just ask Paul

I. Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation
Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the “saved” and the “unsaved.”

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God’s grace during our lives.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of “Once saved, always saved?” If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus’ teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.

Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says “Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me.” We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord’s will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.

Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.

Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a “work” which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don’t know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.

2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment.

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).

Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.

1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.

 

[JustaServant]

(3) purgatory is an unbiblical lie;

Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.

 

[Jack_Bauer]

Jusstaserva,
I’ve given up on quoting so extensively to Protestants[fundamentalist evangelists] because if you’re not one of their own members there is no way you could quote the bible correctly. Just ask them. They’ll twist everything you say… The sad part is that Catholics fall for it all the time. When they want to have a bible study with you, it’s not that they want to study with you, they want to convince you you’re wrong because it’s obvious Catholics don’t know the bible and therefore to not know Christ. Whether they mean it or not, they offend us, Catholics, even when we hold bible degrees and such. Best answer is to pray for them. Pray that we learn to be charitable in spite of their offenses. I’m watching “The God Who Wasn’t There,” a very offensive movie trying to tell us we’re all fools. But most of it’s not even accurate. We, Christians, need to stand together and stand strong against the continued attack on God.

 

[jediliz]

ignorance and lies fed to them by their preachers or parents or other relatives, such as Catholics worship Mary or Catholics don’t worship Jesus…where do they get that idea?

if they would attend just ONE Mass…like Scott Hahn did before he became Catholic, they would see that many things from the Mass are biblical. We have readings from scripture including a psalm. Scott Hahn was amazed and he opened his bible and found things that were going on DURING MASS that were seemingly from Revelation…like the words ‘Lamb of God’.

GreggAlvarez, that site you posted is horrible! The owner claims that the divine mercy image has a satanic image (illuminati pyramid I think?) And disses Narnia because of the fantasy creatures like Fauns, etc.

 

[JustaServant]

(9) The Bible, the inerrant, infallible Word of God Himself, is NOT the final authority of the Catholic church…?? (That’s one I cannot wrap my head around)…PLEASE read
2 Timothy 3:16 - 18…I cannot over-emphasize this;

I. Scripture Alone Disproves “Scripture Alone”
Gen. to Rev. - Scripture never says that Scripture is the sole infallible authority for God’s Word. Scripture also mandates the use of tradition. This fact alone disproves sola Scriptura.

Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:15 - those that preached the Gospel to all creation but did not write the Gospel were not less obedient to Jesus, or their teachings less important.

Matt. 28:20 - “observe ALL I have commanded,” but, as we see in John 20:30; 21:25, not ALL Jesus taught is in Scripture. So there must be things outside of Scripture that we must observe. This disproves “Bible alone” theology.

Mark 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to “preach,” not write, and only three apostles wrote. The others who did not write were not less faithful to Jesus, because Jesus gave them no directive to write. There is no evidence in the Bible or elsewhere that Jesus intended the Bible to be sole authority of the Christian faith.

Luke 1:1-4 - Luke acknowledges that the faithful have already received the teachings of Christ, and is writing his Gospel only so that they “realize the certainty of the teachings you have received.” Luke writes to verify the oral tradition they already received.

John 20:30; 21:25 - Jesus did many other things not written in the Scriptures. These have been preserved through the oral apostolic tradition and they are equally a part of the Deposit of Faith.

Acts 8:30-31; Heb. 5:12 - these verses show that we need help in interpreting the Scriptures. We cannot interpret them infallibly on our own. We need divinely appointed leadership within the Church to teach us.

Acts 15:1-14 – Peter resolves the Church’s first doctrinal issue regarding circumcision without referring to Scriptures.

Acts 17:28 – Paul quotes the writings of the pagan poets when he taught at the Aeropagus. Thus, Paul appeals to sources outside of Scripture to teach about God.

1 Cor. 5:9-11 - this verse shows that a prior letter written to Corinth is equally authoritative but not part of the New Testament canon. Paul is again appealing to a source outside of Scripture to teach the Corinthians. This disproves Scripture alone.

1 Cor. 11:2 - Paul commends the faithful to obey apostolic tradition, and not Scripture alone.

Phil. 4:9 - Paul says that what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do. There is nothing ever about obeying Scripture alone.

Col. 4:16 - this verse shows that a prior letter written to Laodicea is equally authoritative but not part of the New Testament canon. Paul once again appeals to a source outside of the Bible to teach about the Word of God.

1 Thess. 2:13 – Paul says, “when you received the word of God, which you heard from us…” How can the Bible be teaching first century Christians that only the Bible is their infallible source of teaching if, at the same time, oral revelation was being given to them as well? Protestants can’t claim that there is one authority (Bible) while allowing two sources of authority (Bible and oral revelation).

continued…

 

[JustaServant]

1 Thess. 3:10 - Paul wants to see the Thessalonians face to face and supply what is lacking. His letter is not enough.

2 Thess. 2:14 - Paul says that God has called us “through our Gospel.” What is the fullness of the Gospel?

2 Thess. 2:15 - the fullness of the Gospel is the apostolic tradition which includes either teaching by word of mouth or by letter. Scripture does not say “letter alone.” The Catholic Church has the fullness of the Christian faith through its rich traditions of Scripture, oral tradition and teaching authority (or Magisterium).

2 Thess 3:6 - Paul instructs us to obey apostolic tradition. There is no instruction in the Scriptures about obeying the Bible alone (the word “Bible” is not even in the Bible).

1 Tim. 3:14-15 - Paul prefers to speak and not write, and is writing only in the event that he is delayed and cannot be with Timothy.

2 Tim. 2:2 - Paul says apostolic tradition is passed on to future generations, but he says nothing about all apostolic traditions being eventually committed to the Bible.

2 Tim. 3:14 - continue in what you have learned and believed knowing from whom you learned it. Again, this refers to tradition which is found outside of the Bible.

James 4:5 - James even appeals to Scripture outside of the Old Testament canon (“He yearns jealously over the spirit which He has made…”)

2 Peter 1:20 - interpreting Scripture is not a matter of one’s own private interpretation. Therefore, it must be a matter of “public” interpretation of the Church. The Divine Word needs a Divine Interpreter. Private judgment leads to divisions, and this is why there are 30,000 different Protestant denominations.

2 Peter 3:15-16 - Peter says Paul’s letters are inspired, but not all his letters are in the New Testament canon. See, for example, 1 Cor. 5:9-10; Col. 4:16. Also, Peter’s use of the word “ignorant” means unschooled, which presupposes the requirement of oral apostolic instruction that comes from the Church.

2 Peter 3:16 - the Scriptures are difficult to understand and can be distorted by the ignorant to their destruction. God did not guarantee the Holy Spirit would lead each of us to infallibly interpret the Scriptures. But this is what Protestants must argue in order to support their doctrine of sola Scriptura. History and countless divisions in Protestantism disprove it.

1 John 4:1 - again, God instructs us to test all things, test all spirits. Notwithstanding what many Protestants argue, God’s Word is not always obvious.

1 Sam. 3:1-9 - for example, the Lord speaks to Samuel, but Samuel doesn’t recognize it is God. The Word of God is not self-attesting.

1 Kings 13:1-32 - in this story, we see that a man can’t discern between God’s word (the commandment “don’t eat”) and a prophet’s erroneous word (that God had rescinded his commandment “don’t eat”). The words of the Bible, in spite of what many Protestants must argue, are not always clear and understandable. This is why there are 30,000 different Protestant churches and one Holy Catholic Church.

Gen. to Rev. - Protestants must admit that knowing what books belong in the Bible is necessary for our salvation. However, because the Bible has no “inspired contents page,” you must look outside the Bible to see how its books were selected. This destroys the sola Scriptura theory. The canon of Scripture is a Revelation from God which is necessary for our salvation, and which comes from outside the Bible. Instead, this Revelation was given by God to the Catholic Church, the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15).