Why is the Catholic Church hated so much?

[Jack_Bauer]

I give all the credit to God he gave me a open heart and faith.
on a side note pray for my brothers friend Tim he was decived by protestants and left the church. we should also pray for this Tim. i know its confuseing protestantism is like being brainwashed, that catholics are bad. if not for my moms side of the family may she rest in peace i dont think i would have ever joined the catholic church

What you have realized is what led me back to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I also agree that “this Tim” has been proselytized out of the faith. Isolating one from the Church to engage in interpretation off of a few readings through the scripture outside of the entire deposit of salvation history is what causes this phenomena.

I compare learning about the Christian faith to an analogy of an LVN compared to a Medical Doctor’s knowledge of medicine. Would you defer your healt to an LVN [6 months to 1 year of nurse training] over a medical doctor with a bachelor of science degree in biology [4 to 5 years depending if engineering is part of it], a medical degree [4 years of advanced very difficult study in physiology, diagnosis, etc.] and usually a specialization [2 or more years of study, depending on area of specialization].

 

[JustaServant]

Tim’s comment: there is NOTHING else we can do to enter the kingdom, just have faith in Jesus through the Grace of God the Father!! Anything else we do, we do it out of love for Him because He loved us first.

Post #95 of this thread.

 

[Farsight001]

You know, you don’t HAVE to disagree with me on everything JUST because I’m not Catholic.
You are allowed to agree with Scripture every once in a while. I’m just saying.

Do you really not see the problem with this statement? “you don’t have to disagree with me…” and then “you are allowed to agree with** Scripture**…” You quite literally used reference to yourself interchangeably with scripture.

 

[FutureCatholic1]

osas and saed by grace alone is a good concept one i would hope is real because i know many people who ‘believe in God’ but you wouldn’t be able to tell by how they act

 

[JustaServant]

NC, lets look at a simple timeline:

70 - The Seige of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple
c. 70-80- The Epistle of Barnabus is written.
c. 85 - John written
Late First Century - 1, 2, and 3 John
95- The Epistle of Clement is written…
c. 95-96 - John writes Revelation
c. 60-120- The writings of Papias (only fragments remain).
c. 105- The Epistles of Ignatius are written as he heads for Rome for execution.
c. 105-125- The Epistle of Polycarp is written.
c. 125-130- The Letter to Diognetus is written.
c. 125-130- The Epistle of Aristides is written.
c. 130- The Martyrdom of Polycarp is written.
c. 130-150- The Shepherd of Hermas is written.
c.100-165- The writings of Justin Martyr, much of it written in the 130s.

Lets look at what these guys had to say about faith and works:

“Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. ‘For God,’ saith [the Scripture], ‘resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.’ Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words."

Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30.

“For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?”

Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians,

“All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 32

“Now I beseech thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to add [speed] to thy course, and that thou ever pray for all men that they may be saved, and that thou demand things which are befitting, with all assiduity both of the flesh and spirit. Be studious of unity, than which nothing is more precious. Bear with all men, even as our Lord beareth with thee. Show patience with all men in love, as [indeed] thou doest. Be steadfast in prayer. Ask for more understanding than that which thou [already] hast. Be watchful, as possessing a spirit which sleepeth not. Speak with every man according to the will of God. Bear the infirmities of all men as a perfect athlete; for where the labour is great, the gain is also great.”

Ignatius of Antioch, To Polycarp, 1

Continued…

 

[JustaServant]

“Look ye to the bishop, that God also may look upon you. I will be instead of the souls of those who are subject to the bishop, and the presbyters, and the deacons; with them may I have a portion in the presence of God! Labour together with one another, act as athletes together, run together, suffer together, sleep together, rise together. As stewards of God, and of His household, and His servants, please Him and serve Him, that ye may receive from Him the wages promised. Let none of you be rebellious. Let your baptism be to you as armour, and faith as a spear, and love as a helmet, and patience as a panoply. Let your treasures be your good works, that ye may receive the gift of God, as is just. Let your spirit be long-suffering towards each other with meekness, even as God is toward you. As for me, I rejoice in you at all times.”

Ignatius of Antioch, To Polycarp, 6

“For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works.”

Epistle of Barnabas, 2

“But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, falsewitness; ‘not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing,’ or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in His teaching: ‘Judge not, that ye be not judged; forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you; be merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again; and once more, "Blessed are the poor, and those that are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God.’”

Polycarp, To the Philippians, 2

“They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them.”

Shepherd of Hermas, 2 Comm 7

“But those who do not keep his commandments, flee from his life, and despise him. But he has his own honour with the Lord. All, therefore, who shall despise him, and not follow his commands, deliver themselves to death, and every one of them will be guilty of his own blood. But I enjoin you, that you obey his commands, and you will have a cure for your former sins.”

Shepherd of Hermas, 3 Sim 10:2.

“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power…But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.”

Justin Martyr, First Apology, 6

Why does the Church, 100 years after Christ’s death and Resurrection look so Catholic?

 

[JustaServant]

Do you really not see the problem with this statement? “you don’t have to disagree with me…” and then “you are allowed to agree with** Scripture**…” You quite literally used reference to yourself interchangeably with scripture.

It’s funny, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, a BAPTIST preacher of the 19th century would often say that he quaked in fear every time he preached lest he misinterpret one word of Scripture.
The problem with fundamentalists is that they use Scripture like a 12 year old with a squirt gun,

 

[newcreation2009]

it is a combination of works and grace that save us if u try to take one away from the other it dosnt work i cant say God sae me through your grace then go and murder fifty people, and expect to get to heaven. But neither can i say well ill just be a atheist but ill be a nice person and do good deeds and if God is real he will let me into heaven. but if you ask for Gods forgiveness and then turn your life to God and work for God it works think i got my meaning across

If that is true, then can you tell me how much work is needed to be saved?
A person is saved by Jesus’ work on the cross, and if you think that anything that you do, no matter how ‘good’ it is, will get you into heaven, then you are demeaning Christ’s sacrifice for us. (What is ‘good’ anyway? And what if I do more ‘good’ than you? Do I get ‘first dibbs’?)
As the apostle Paul put it,
“As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one” (Romans 3:10)
and he said that “All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).
We become truly righteous NOT through our own righteousness, but through the power of Christ’s righteousness. Therefore, to become more like Christ we must partake of the divine nature of Christ (2 Peter 1:4) and His righteousness.
Saved by grace:
A.(Ephesians 2:8-9) - “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God; NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, that no one should boast.”
B.(Rom. 3:20, 28) - “because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
C.(Galatians 2:16) - “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law BUT THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
D.(James 2:24) - “You see that a man is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, and not by faith alone.”
God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who “say” that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith RESULTS IN true works.
There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts.
We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2).
The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith.
Remember ‘FUTURECATHOLIC’, we sin because we are sinners. We AREN’T sinners because we sin. And since we are sinners we NEED a Savior, and that Savior is Jesus Christ, NOT your ‘‘good’’ works. Please don’t try to rely on anything you do to get you into heaven, you’ll be sadly mistaken one day.

 

[newcreation2009]

It’s funny, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, a BAPTIST preacher of the 19th century would often say that he quaked in fear every time he preached lest he misinterpret one word of Scripture.
The problem with fundamentalists is that they use Scripture like a 12 year old with a squirt gun,

Yeah, that’s hilarious that a man would tremble out of utter respect for the word of God.
My stomach is killing me I’m laughing so hard!!!

 

[Jack_Bauer]

I think that historically speaking, when we put ourselves in the presence of the earlier cultures in other lands we can see how anxious people were led by elders (priests, bishops, deacons, and even governments). Rulers beleived that insilling fear in people was proper and most effective in keeping their people in tact. There are theories that insist a successful method of keeping a government of people in tact is for them to have a common language, herritage, religion, … belief system. America used to be a melting pot… that is until a group of people turned down the heat. This created less melting and more clumping. SO, in theory it may be true or effective, but is is right?

On the latter concept, the Catholic Church attempts to respect the cultures, historically. However, bishops and priest and deacons, are only human beings bestowed with much responsibility. Even in the Church there are, unfortunately, ambitious people. That’s why there have been so many bad, if not evil, leaders within the hierarchy. The individual or groups cluttered to give the illusion the Church allows or teaches such heresy and evil within its ranks are what have given the Church over all a bad rap. We, apparently, have been our worst enemy.

The Church hierarchy consists of many humble men that are well meaning. As governments are sometimes isolated from the norms of life’s struggles, they also tend to not really see the reality of day to day harshness of life. However, throughout history there have been many that have recognized this harshness and embracing of it. The Saints, Benedict, Francis, Dominic, Augustine, John of the Cross, etc. The list goes on and on.

But the scandals seem to be reaching Rome, the higher ups. The response in many places seem to have become too sensitive to the disturbances. Harsh treatment of homosexuals, poor treatment of Jews, again, the list goes on. We forget that the Church teaches officially truth, but practically speaking, all of us are subjected to the idiosyncrasies of human nature in the context of their specific societies/cultures. It takes an enormous amount of work to rise above our "idiosyncrasies.

Geography has opened my mind to the possibilities that most of us are overly harsh towards each other without even realizing the diverse cultures from which others come from. There are cultures within cultures. America is one of many perfect examples.

 

[wisdomseeker]

If that is true, then can you tell me how much work is needed to be saved?
A person is saved by Jesus’ work on the cross and if you think that anything that you do, no matter how good it is(What is 'good), will get you into heaven, then you are demeaning Christ’s sacrifice for us.
As Paul put it, “As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one” (Romans 3:10) and he said that “All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). We become truly righteous not through our own righteousness, but through the power of Christ’s righteousness. Therefore, to become more like Christ we must partake of the divine nature of Christ (2 Peter 1:4) and His righteousness.
Saved by grace:
A.(Ephesians 2:8-9) - “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”
B.(Rom. 3:20, 28) - “because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
C.(Galatians 2:16) - “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
D.(James 2:24) - “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”
God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who “say” that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith RESULTS IN true works.
There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith.

You seem to be focused on teh wrong thing. Think Obedience to God is what pleases HIm. therefore if you do not do as He says, you cannot find favor with HIm. through out the Gospel Jesus talks about working. Obey HIm and not those who heard the Word from.
Jesus tells us in teh end. He calls them by the works they have done., those who claimed to have faith and did not do works were casted in the hell fire.

you must believe everything God says and do as He says. Jesus even asked the Pharisees to believe in the works He has done.

From the beginning the Church had the mission to evangelize and also do good works too. for that is pleasing to God. Catholics dont just do good works because they want to be saved they do in obedience to Christ and hope to receive the reward God has promised to us.

 

[Farsight001]

Yeah, that’s hilarious that a man would tremble out of utter respect for the word of God.
My stomach is killing me I’m laughing so hard!!!

He was commenting about how it’s funny that YOUR attitude is so diametrically opposed to the preacher he mentioned. If I were you, I wouldn’t find that funny at all. That’s very serious.

 

[JustaServant]

Saved by grace:
A.(Ephesians 2:8-9) - “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, that no one should boast.”

sites.google.com/site/catholicdefense/eph2

 

[JustaServant]

IB.(Rom. 3:20, 28) - “because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”

The footnote in the New Catholic Confraternity Edition reads “The justice of God through faith is not that holiness whereby God is just, but that grace which He imparts to the soul to make it really, intrinsicallly pleasing and holy in His sight. The necessary condition for obtaining the infusion of this divine gift is faith, not a bare speculative faith, but a practical faith which through the love of God effects the observance of the commandments and the performance of other good works.”

 

[JustaServant]

C.(Galatians 2:16) - “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law BUT THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”

St. Paul was talking about the Mosaic Law, not acts of Christian charity. The Mosaic Law had no power to save anyone, is what he is telling us, which is why we need faith in Christ. And why is that? Because Christ’s sacrificial death and resurrection made salvation possible because it was redemptive.
the whole context of Galatians and most of Romans especially is Paul’s arguments against Judaizers who are trying to impose the Jewish Law on Gentile believers, as we see in Acts 15.
Catholics do not believe in keeping the law to be saved. We do believe that good works of Christian charity are necessary since they are mandated by God that “we should walk in them” as Paul put it. They are a part of the grace God gives us through faith in Christ.

 

[newcreation2009]

You seem to be focused on teh wrong thing. Think Obedience to God is what pleases HIm. therefore if you do not do as He says, you cannot find favor with HIm. through out the Gospel Jesus talks about working. Obey HIm and not those who heard the Word from.
Jesus tells us in teh end. He calls them by the works they have done., those who claimed to have faith and did not do works were casted in the hell fire.

you must believe everything God says and do as He says. Jesus even asked the Pharisees to believe in the works He has done.

From the beginning the Church had the mission to evangelize and also do good works too. for that is pleasing to God. Catholics dont just do good works because they want to be saved they do in obedience to Christ and hope to receive the reward God has promised to us.

You say, “Catholics dont just do good works because they want to be saved, they do [it] in obedience to Christ and hope to receive the reward God has promised to us.”
Tim : Really, then what is "Penance’ all about? And I’m not being flippant either.

 

[JustaServant]

D.(James 2:24) - “You see that a man is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, and not by faith alone.”
God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who “say” that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith RESULTS IN true works.

There is absolutely no indication within the text that it is talking about justification before men. James is talking about faith that leads to - or away from - salvation (verse 14). Even the example James uses about Abraham is based on Abrahams standing before God (vv21-24) not men.

To reduce this passage to simply one dealing with human relations is to engage in faulty eisegesis (reading into Scripture)based on what they want to avoid about the plain meaning of the words – that we will be judged on what we do or don’t do (Romans 2:6-8).

 

[JustaServant]

Tim : Really, then what is "Penance’ all about? And I’m not being flippant either.

Glad you asked:

I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins
John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to “men.” Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles’ successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?

Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the “Son of man” has authority to forgive sins on earth.

Luke 5:24 - Luke also points out that Jesus’ authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.

Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.

John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 - the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ’s ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an “indulgence”).

2 Cor. 2:10 - Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as “in persona Christi”). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.

2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

James 5:15-16 - in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man’s authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.

1 Tim. 2:5 - Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.

Continued…
Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

 

[JustaServant]

II. The Necessity and Practice of Orally Confessing Sins
James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins.

Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.

Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5 - again, this shows people confessing their sins before others as an historical practice (here to John the Baptist).

1 Tim. 6:12 - this verse also refers to the historical practice of confessing both faith and sins in the presence of many witnesses.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess are sins, God is faithful to us and forgives us and cleanse us. But we must confess our sins to one another.

Num. 5:7 - this shows the historical practice of publicly confessing sins, and making public restitution.

2 Sam. 12:14 - even though the sin is forgiven, there is punishment due for the forgiven sin. David is forgiven but his child was still taken (the consequence of his sin).

Neh. 9:2-3 - the Israelites stood before the assembly and confessed sins publicly and interceded for each other.

Sir. 4:26 - God tells us not to be ashamed to confess our sins, and not to try to stop the current of a river. Anyone who has experienced the sacrament of reconciliation understands the import of this verse.

Baruch 1:14 - again, this shows that the people made confession in the house of the Lord, before the assembly.

1 John 5:16-17; Luke 12:47-48 - there is a distinction between mortal and venial sins. This has been the teaching of the Catholic Church for 2,000 years, but, today, most Protestants no longer agree that there is such a distinction. Mortal sins lead to death and must be absolved in the sacrament of reconciliation. Venial sins do not have to be confessed to a priest, but the pious Catholic practice is to do so in order to advance in our journey to holiness.

Matt. 5:19 - Jesus teaches that breaking the least of commandments is venial sin (the person is still saved but is least in the kingdom), versus mortal sin (the person is not saved).

 

[newcreation2009]

sites.google.com/site/catholicdefense/eph2

That was very informative, thanks. However, God’s grace (unmerited, unearned favor) is freely given not matter what ‘context’ anyone wants to put it in.
Now, I don’t understand why anyone would try to ‘pay back’ God for a free gift, but that’s just me. Seriously think about that: God gives His grace to you freely, as a GIFT, and you try to perform ‘tricks’ for Him. Doesn’t make sense, does it?
Hey, I go your house and give you a gift. After you see the gift and how beautiful it is, you go into your wallet and try to pay me for the gift. How offensive it THAT? Or how about you see the beautiful gift then say to me, “How about I cut your grass for the rest of the year?” Really?
Uh, NO. See, it just doesn’t add up.
We, thank our gracious and wonderful God, are saved by grace alone!!! Hallelujah!!