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Maranatha
Guest
John Henry Cardinal Newman (covert from Anglicanism) said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant.”
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slowly
Guest
I am not an expert on Hinduism (yet), but their scriptures do include historical references to their God(s) or manifestations of God (I am unsure about the correct terminology here), Rama, Krishna etc. It relates the actual words of these God figures, their deeds, when they lived and so on.
When one considers the truth value of Hinduism I believe that the historical accuracy/validity of these claims are indeed relevant. If it can be clearly shown that these historical claims are untrue then it would indeed say something about the Religion’s status as the truth, not?
I am not sure why you say Hinduism is “not an historical faith”. I gather it is some theological classification. I would appreciate if you could elaborate.
Thanks for your comments so far.
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slowly
Guest
If I pray with complete honesty to God and I receive an answer that the Reborn Christians are in fact the true Religion (many Reborns seem to have experienced exactly this), where did I go wrong?
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Della
Guest
There are Hindus who consider Jesus a manifestation of their gods. That is their only historical evidence–their belief in reincarnation, a religious tenet that cannot be shown to be actually historical in nature.
The resurrection of Jesus, however was witnessed by those who saw him after the fact with a real living body. Hindus do not/cannot make such a claim for any of their gods/manifestation of their gods.
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slowly
Guest
Does this also mean that any Catholic that converts to Protestantism has somehow lost his historical expertise. Come on, I am not that naive!
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Maranatha
Guest
It would seem to me that people to loose their Catholic faith do not do so for lack of historical evidence. An interesting investigation on your journey will be to investigate why people have left one religion or denomination for another.
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ltravis
Guest
As a Catholic, I believe I would consider you “invinceably ignorant”. That is not an insult; it is an admission that through no fault of your own, you did not come to know the full truth. In such case, we believe salvation is possible for you. Did you go wrong? No. We Catholics went wrong. It is our solemn duty to respond to the privelege of owning the truth by sharing it with those who don’t yet have it. As far as your responsibility, I guess it begs the question of community. We don’t believe it is possible to have a true relationship with Christ without having a relationship with others, because the community is the very body of Christ himself. Therefore, one can’t attain the truth by only relating to God and not the rest of His body which seeks to incorporate you into it. If you conciously reject the community, you might be culpible; if you weren’t aware of its importance, you may well not be.
As far as why we feel Catholicism is authentic, I think we can look from a real philosphical level at why we are here and what would make the most sense as our source of being. Our faith holds that the creator didn’t just create us and doesn’t merely watch us or control us. He entered human history, became eternally bound as one with us, and actually built and maintains a loving relationship with us. The creator also suffers with us, a manifestation of true authentic love and the only thing approaching an answer to the question of why suffering has to even exist. These themes, as far as I know, are unique to Christianity, and Catholicism (because of its understanding of redemptive suffering) in particular.
I would not call this “academic” so much as just out of my heart. I hope it helps somewhat.
LT
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slowly
Guest
Thanks, this is really a neat answer.
I will try to summarize for myself: If I get the wrong answer through prayer, then it is because I have not been exposed enough (via the Catholic community) to the ideas and truth that the Church represents. Sounds reasonable.
Correspondingly, if it get an answer that the Reborns are in fact the true Religion, then this probably means I hung out too much with them.
So then in order for me to make sure I get the right answer from God I must choose my friends wisely
.Of course, it would have all been much simpler if God could just give me the right answer in the first place. Imagine if God gave the same answer to everyone in the world who prays to Him about this, regardless of whom they hung out with. It could actually mean a radical decline in the number of confused/strayed Religions. In fact, imagine a world with only one Religion (whichever that might be), imagine how much confusion, pain and suffering could have been avoided.
But I guess there is no point complaining, this is not going to happen.
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Maranatha
Guest
From the Catholic Church’s point of view (as I understand it), you do not get the wrong answer because you hang out with non-Christians.Thanks, this is really a neat answer.
I will try to summarize for myself: If I get the wrong answer through prayer, then it is because I have not been exposed enough (via the Catholic community) to the ideas and truth that the Church represents. Sounds reasonable.
Correspondingly, if it get an answer that the Reborns are in fact the true Religion, then this probably means I hung out too much with them.
So then in order for me to make sure I get the right answer from God I must choose my friends wisely
Of course, it would have all been much simpler if God could just give me the right answer in the first place. Imagine if God gave the same answer to everyone in the world who prays to Him about this, regardless of whom they hung out with. It could actually mean a radical decline in the number of confused/strayed Religions. In fact, imagine a world with only one Religion (whichever that might be), imagine how much confusion, pain and suffering could have been avoided.
But I guess there is no point complaining, this is not going to happen.
You do get the answer you are best able to accept at the time you asked.
God always makes available the fullness of truth which persists in the Catholic Church. Some people reject this answer and are not ready for this truth. The problem is with the creature and not the Creator.
We are consistently called to test our assumptions and continue to search for truth.
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slowly
Guest
You are right, that is a good point to investigate.
After thinking some more about this I guess it is unavoidable. Catholics have to think that Protestant historians have no clue about history because they contradict Catholic doctrine. Similarly Protestant historians have to believe Catholic historians are entirely incompetent for a similar reason. And atheist historians have to believe the Religious historians are all on the wrong track. (Unless you assume that Protestants and atheists never study history, and I know for a fact they do.) This is why I guess I have found the historical arguments so far in my search entirely frustrating and inconclusive.
Hence I am trying a different approach.
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slowly
Guest
Come on, all I need is a name, the name of the one true Religion. Is that so difficult for God to answer? The rest of the knowledge (truth) can follow once I know which Religion is the truth.
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Della
Guest
Most Catholics who convert to Protestantism never had any historical perspective. Church history isn’t automatically taught to Catholics unless they’ve attended a Catholic school. And even then many pay little attention or they were poorly taught, as has happened, sad to say, in the last 40 years due to a misguided sense of ecumenism.
Most Protestants are not historians, nor are most Catholics. There are plenty of people on both sides who remain in their churches solely because it is all they’ve ever known.
However, it’s been the case over and over again that Protestants who convert to Catholicism most often have researched Church history and so have come to see that the Catholic Church truly is the Church founded by Christ. That is the difference, and what Maranatha is talking about.
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Maranatha
Guest
I suggest you direct those comments to God but ask him not why is it so difficult for Him to answer but why is it so difficult for you to hear?
As a side note, the Catholic Church does not assert that it is the one true religion. We do say we have the fullness of truth. The difference being that we recognize that there are some truths, which we call mysteries, that we as finite beings are not able to understand. It is also to say that most other religions hold some degree of the truth.
You seems a thoughtful open-minded individual and you are taking your search seriously. I will keep yo in my prayers.
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ltravis
Guest
This is a great point. The Catholic Church contains the fullness of the the truth but that in no way means other faiths don’t have any of it. In one of his speeches Father Corapi said something to the effect of protestants quite often do “more” with “less” and that is a very sobering, but valuable observation for us Catholics to be aware of. Having the truth is important, but not nearly so important as living and proclaiming it.
LT
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DeFide
Guest
It **is **a historical argument. If you’re looking for more historical arguments, here’s one that is very recent:
Fatima & Miracle of the Sun
and here’s some that are spread throughout Christian history:
Eucharistic Miracles
These are private revelations, not general revelations according to Catholic theology, they do not of themselves add to the deposit of faith.
I suppose a person could be really anti-historical and only accept arguments from logic alone, but why? We don’t do this elsewhere. Not in science, not in law or any other search for truth. Most people are rightly unopposed to data points that are not soley dependent on mathematical logic. All truth is God’s truth.
There is no witness of martyrs of a supernatural event to guarantee that Mohammed was a prophet instead of a liar, lunatic, or just plain mistaken.
Go ahead and study. Mormonism can be refuted in about 2 seconds. It was established in 1830. There’s no way it can be the Church established by Christ. Well, I could elaborate, but as I said before… do research. Not all religious persons have good reasons for what they believe. Some may just have inherited assumptions from parents.
I can see you’d like to avoid some research, which is understandable, but I think as you do research, you’ll quickly find that you don’t have to read all there is about a religion before you realize you have a dead end.
For example, certain eastern philosophies that propose that there is no objective truth can immediately be dismissed, since such an idea is self-refuting. If the thesis “there is no truth” is correct, then that thesis itself cannot be true.
I would say that if you have a suspicion that a certain point of view is correct, it makes sense to give a proportionally greater amount of study to its arguments. Similarly, if you know that a religion is fundamentally wrong, it doesn’t make sense to devote much time to their arguements.
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slyboots
Guest
Because the Catholic Church has the fullness of the Gospel, and the words of everlasting life.
I am an adult convert from protestant beliefs. I studied the Catholic Church teachings for 8-9 years while praying for guidance. And finally after praying a prayer of surrender to God’s will and truly accepting what was given me, by the urging of the Holy Spirit, I began RCIA classes. One week later my husband ( also a protestant) decided to join me. We came into the one true Holy Catholic Church September 1995. And our daughter, also a protestant adult, converted on her own and now is married to a Catholic. Our son, raised in a protestant church, converted after he turned 21 years old. His wife converted while they were engaged. My husband’s youngest brother and his wife converted shortly after we did although we were unaware of their journey until later as they were unaware of ours.
Because the Catholic Church is the Church given by Christ to St Peter to guide. Because no where else leads you most directly home to God. Amen?
I am an adult convert from protestant beliefs. I studied the Catholic Church teachings for 8-9 years while praying for guidance. And finally after praying a prayer of surrender to God’s will and truly accepting what was given me, by the urging of the Holy Spirit, I began RCIA classes. One week later my husband ( also a protestant) decided to join me. We came into the one true Holy Catholic Church September 1995. And our daughter, also a protestant adult, converted on her own and now is married to a Catholic. Our son, raised in a protestant church, converted after he turned 21 years old. His wife converted while they were engaged. My husband’s youngest brother and his wife converted shortly after we did although we were unaware of their journey until later as they were unaware of ours.
Because the Catholic Church is the Church given by Christ to St Peter to guide. Because no where else leads you most directly home to God. Amen?
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slyboots
Guest
The Church must be historical, have apostolic doctrine, and apostolic authority.
Historical…The Catholic Church is proved by historical books to have existed since the time of Christ. No protestant churches existed prior to 1517ad.
Apostolic doctrines…The early Church fathers tell us what the first Christians believed. If you study these writings you can see they taught Catholic doctrines.
Apostolic Authority…The Bible and Sacred tradition show that hrist left a Church that would be governed by an episcopate hierarchy of bishops, presbyters and deacons. Only the Catholic Church can trace back their authority in unbroken sucession to the giving of the Church to St Peter by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Christ only founded one Church. All others were founded by men. Their followers may be faithful Christians but only the Catholic Church stands out as founded by Christ.
Study and pray, Slowly. If you open yourself to the teaching of the Church you will be moved as we were by the Holy Spirit.
Historical…The Catholic Church is proved by historical books to have existed since the time of Christ. No protestant churches existed prior to 1517ad.
Apostolic doctrines…The early Church fathers tell us what the first Christians believed. If you study these writings you can see they taught Catholic doctrines.
Apostolic Authority…The Bible and Sacred tradition show that hrist left a Church that would be governed by an episcopate hierarchy of bishops, presbyters and deacons. Only the Catholic Church can trace back their authority in unbroken sucession to the giving of the Church to St Peter by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Christ only founded one Church. All others were founded by men. Their followers may be faithful Christians but only the Catholic Church stands out as founded by Christ.
Study and pray, Slowly. If you open yourself to the teaching of the Church you will be moved as we were by the Holy Spirit.
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slowly
Guest
I can see from all the responses here that Catholics regard the historical evidence for the authority of the Church in great regard and also as crucial for their faith.
The fact is that seemingly rational and intelligent historical scolars from not only Protestant Religions but also from the Mormon Religion, with access to the same historical documents and reasearch techniques that Catholic scolars have, are able to confirm their own interpretation of God’s will within history.
I am sure it gives great comfort to Catholics to disregard such sincere efforts by scolars outside the Church as incompetent, corrupted or obviously erronous. And I am sure Protestants and Mormons similarly have the same attitude to scholars outside of their Religions.
For myself, I find it impossible to consciously disregard or trivialize the problem and challenge that such conflicting historical interpretations bring. If I am to be sure of the truth of any Religion, there has got to be another way.
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slowly
Guest
Thanks for all these points. I realize that it will take me a while to even understand why these are indications of a true church. For example why does a true Religion need to have apostolic doctrine, etc.? This is not self-evident to me. So it will take me a bit of time to work through this.
Regarding your suggested procedure of prayer as a way to be “moved” by the “Holy Spirit” into accepting the truth of Catholicism, how would you suggest I overcome the inconsistent results that believers are getting from such an approach (see my earlier posts)?
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donnak
Guest
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