Why is the Tridentine Mass popular?

[OrthoCath]

If the Pope teachings do not confirm tradition then one in good conscience my reject the Pope. We have example after example of this in history. One just prays and waits for another Pope.

Remember the Pope is ONLY infalliable when speaking of faith and morals. The Pope’s have historically been wrong about many things. Thus, we see today Pope John Paul II apologizing (almost on a daily bases it seems) for sins of the past.

The fact remains the Church is in crisis! This crisis is both spiritualy with the Mass and human with the global sex abuse scandal. Catholics in good conscience may flee there local Bishop if he is preaching heresy or lacks the ability to lead the faithful.

It is not uncommon to read about INVALID BAPTISMS, INVALID MASSES, HERETICAL TEACHINGS. In fact, just recently another famous story came out:

Non-traditional baptisms ruled invalid

THE Catholic Archbishop of Brisbane, John Bathersby, yesterday declared that children baptised at a South Brisbane church using non-traditional words would have to be re-baptised.

news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11480858%255E3102,00.html

In these situations a Catholic has the DUTY to flee such Churches and seek out a Traditional Church.

You can NOT argue against this point because even Vatican II says I am correct. I believe Vatican II’s document *Gaudium et Spes *speaks of this role of conscience.

 

[TNT]

bear06:
How about some things the current Pope has said? He has the jursidiction over disciplines, yes? You don’t have to like altar girls. You don’t have to be an altar girl or allow your children to be altar girls. Mine won’t be. However, saying they are wrong is a whole other thing.
Somehow I don’t think you are submitting to the Pope if you are saying that altar girls or other things in the post Vatican II missal are wrong. Submission is a very important thing when we’re talking about things that are under the Pope’s jurisdiction.

 

[Iohannes]

Altar servers are training grounds for priests. So what is the point of altar girls?

 

[khkhk]

**khkhk Writes in #117: **…Girl alter servers aren’t wrong. Any straight person knows that “priestesses” are wrong…

I’m not sure that Roman Catholicism is on your side. Episcopalians are, however.

Now, in the case of a religious tradition which has not only existed, but has been consciously, continuously, and emphatically reaffirmed and insisted upon for two millennia, there must be a very strong presumption that such a tradition reflects the will of Christ. And this is in fact the case with the tradition against female altar service. In the Vatican journal Notitiæ, the liturgical scholar, Aimé-Georges Martimort, affirms thatthe general discipline of the Church against female altar service has been set in stone by canon 44 of the Collection of Laodicea which dates generally from the end of the 4th century (300’s AD) and which has figured in almost all canonical collections of East and West.

Martimort also recalls that Popes ever since St. Gelasius in 494 had denounced this practice as an abuse. It appears there were already feminist influences making themselves felt in Sicily and southern Italy at that time, and Pope St. Gelasius felt obliged to write to the bishops of those regions saying

We have heard with sorrow of the great contempt mépris] with which the sacred mysteries have been treated. It has reached the point where women have been encouraged to serve at the altar, and to carry out roles that are not suited to their sex, having been assigned exclusively to those of masculine gender.

Every edition of the Roman Missal from 1570 till 1962 carried the prohibition of female altar servers, as did the 1917 Code of Canon Law (c. 813, §2), not to mention the documents of the post-conciliar liturgical reform.

From: Liturgicae Instaurationes
******Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship
Instruction on the orderly carrying out of the Constitution on the Liturgy, September 5, 1970.
7. In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.

From: Encyclical Inaestimabile Donum
Approved and Confirmed by His Holiness Pope John Paul II April 17, 1980
18. There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.(27)

So, are you in schism if you refuse to obey the Pontiff in this matter? No matter your personal preferences?
Is Altar girls Roman Catholic? Does it reflect the mind of Christ?

Firstly, is there anymore recent document from the pope possibly overriding what he said in 1980? And if not THEN WHY ARE THERE ALTER GIRLS AT EVERY CHURCH I’VE BEEN TO? And I’ve been to many different churches. Are they all against the Pope and the Church?

 

[bear06]

If the Pope teachings do not confirm tradition then one in good conscience my reject the Pope. We have example after example of this in history. One just prays and waits for another Pope

.

Can you quote a teaching for this one?

Remember the Pope is ONLY infalliable when speaking of faith and morals.

This is true but have you read Pater Aeternus?

Catholics in good conscience may flee there local Bishop if he is preaching heresy or lacks the ability to lead the faithful.

Where are you suggesting people go? Off to another schismatic Church. Might I suggest that two wrongs don’t make a right? Where in Church teachings is it said we may flee (not sure what you mean by that) a bishop that lacks the ability to lead the faithful?

In these situations a Catholic has the DUTY to flee such Churches and seek out a Traditional Church.

Again, are you talking indult Mass or schismatic church? Why should an invalid baptism which has been ordered to be corrected make us flee?

You can NOT argue against this point because even Vatican II says I am correct. I believe Vatican II’s document *Gaudium et Spes *

speaks of this role of conscience. Holy cow! If you are talking about going to an SSPX type Church then you are stretching it. If you are talking of going to a Church that follows the teachings of the Catholic Church better than the wacky liberal ones then I’d agree with you. What exactly are you quoting from Gaudium et Spes and what type of church are you talking about specifically?

 

[TNT]

bear06 writes:
How about some things the current Pope has said? He has the jursidiction over disciplines, yes? You don’t have to like altar girls. You don’t have to be an altar girl or allow your children to be altar girls. Mine won’t be. However, saying they are wrong is a whole other thing.
Somehow I don’t think you are submitting to the Pope if you are saying that altar girls or other things in the post Vatican II missal are wrong. Submission is a very important thing when we’re talking about things that are under the Pope’s jurisdiction

The RCC is not the personal putty ball of a pope.

From Vat I:

“… the successors of St. Peter have been promised the Holy Ghost, not for the promulgation of new doctrines, but only for the preservation and interpretation of the Revelation delivered by the Apostles.”

Example of error when blindly following a pope:

Pope Nicholas I assured the Bulgarians that Baptism in the name of Christ only is valid. (Resp. ad consult. Bulgar. 104. Labbe Collect. Concil. ix. 1566) Contrast this with the modern teaching that baptism in the name of Holy Trinity only is valid.

More grievous is the formal action of the 6th Ecumenical Council at Constantinople in 680, which “cast out of the Holy Catholic Church, Honorius, who was pope, because we found that he followed Sergius’ opinion in all respects and confirmed his impious dogmas.” Sergius was the Monothelite Heresiarch.

To answer Sarah: You can often find this pope on both sides of an issue.
adoremus.org/CDW-AltarServers.html
In March 1994 the letter from Jorge A. Card. Medina Estévez, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship in the Vatican, instructed the bishops of the world, that girls as well as boys may be permitted to serve at the altar.
Also note the phrase:
“it would remain important to explain clearly to the faithful the nature of this innovation, lest confusion might be introduced, thereby hampering the development of priestly vocations.” in that letter.

So, the mind of Christ flip flops again.
In 1994 he refutes his own 1980 encyclical and the entire 2000 year teaching of the constant magisterium.

Which is the mind of Christ? His 1980 mind or his 1994 mind. Your answer please.

Should I submit to a sainted Pope and 2000 years of the constant magisterium or to the current pope of 1980 or the current pope of 1994? Your answer, please.

 

[khkhk]

TNT:

To answer Sarah: You can often find this pope on both sides of an issue.
adoremus.org/CDW-AltarServers.html
In March 1994 the letter from Cardinal Antonio Javierre Ortas, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship in the Vatican, instructed the bishops of the world, that girls as well as boys may be permitted to serve at the altar.
So, the mind of Christ flip flops again. This pope could do well as Kerry’s running mate.

Should I submit to a sainted Pope and 2000 years of the constant magisterium or to the current pope of 1980 or the current pope of 1994? Your answer, please.

Ouch! Wow! Ummm, I’m not sure…the current Pope would be the one to follow since he’s “in charge”…I think… oy!!!

 

[TNT]

khkhk:

Ouch! Wow! Ummm, I’m not sure…the current Pope would be the one to follow since he’s “in charge”…I think… oy!!!

The JPII of 1980 or the JPII of 1994. He went both ways.

 

[TNT]

khkhk:

Ouch! Wow! Ummm, I’m not sure…the current Pope would be the one to follow since he’s “in charge”…I think… oy!!!

To answer the primary question of this thread:
Why is the Tridentine Mass popular?

No hip-hop innovations from one mass to the next.
If my parents told me one day I couldn’t drive til I was 16, then the next day changed it to age 17, then the next day changed it to 18, I would not wonder about me, I would begin to wonder about the mental stability of my parents.

Innovation or novelty is the hallmark of the VAT II church. It is not the hallmark of the Roman Catholic Church.
One, holy, catholic and APOSTOLIC.

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

Why is the Tridentine Mass popular? Just attend a one and let it speak for itself! (Indult, of course!) As for His Holiness, John Paul II, he’s obviously aware of it’s popularity and longevity which is why he approved the formation of orders like the Institute of Christ the King which only offer the Tridentine Mass and sacraments according to the missal of 1962.

 

[misericordie]

bear06:
How about some things the current Pope has said? He has the jursidiction over disciplines, yes? You don’t have to like altar girls. You don’t have to be an altar girl or allow your children to be altar girls. Mine won’t be. However, saying they are wrong is a whole other thing. Let’s just look at another pre-Vatican II document (emphasis mine):

Somehow I don’t think you are submitting to the Pope if you are saying that altar girls or other things in the post Vatican II missal are wrong. Submission is a very important thing when we’re talking about things that are under the Pope’s jurisdiction. YUP:yup: I I KNEW IT!!! This confirms it, the answer I was re-searching for: bear06 seems to disregard ALL OTHER PREVIOUS POPES and all previous church teaching(Probably even the Papal Bull of Pope Saint Pius V "Quo Primus). Ummm, bear: some news: Pope John Paul II did NOT nullate all his predecessors. RECENTLY: Redemptionis Sacramentum: Cardinal Arinze has(hence the Pope’s words: HE approved it) has stated that the "noble TRADITION of altar BOYS is to be conserved. The whole purpous of ALTAR BOYS (I don’t care what they try to call them "altar SERVERS etc) is to have them think about the priesthood. Ummmmm, can women become priests? Again, you take a document from Rome which not always is written by the POPE HIMSELF out of contextand again you make EVERY UTTERED WORD(even when the pope talks about hockey) to say that all catholics MUST play hockey too.

 

[TNT]

IrenkaJMJ:

As for His Holiness, John Paul II, he’s obviously aware of it’s popularity and longevity which is why he approved the formation of orders like the Institute of Christ the King which only offer the Tridentine Mass and sacraments according to the missal of 1962.

If it had not been for the rising popularity of the SSPX and independent chapels offering the TLM, BEFORE it was ever approved, but believed to be valid under Quo Primus, the Vatican would never have let you have an indult. Rest assured. You have them to thank. The VAT II church hates the TLM. It is a bugger thorn in their side.
I got married at an indult mass recently. I invited all my N-ordo firends - about 200. To the person, including a n-ordo priest, they were in awe.
Thank you, independents and SSPX for forcing the hand of VAT II Church.

 

[bear06]

TNT:

The JPII of 1980 or the JPII of 1994. He went both ways.

Are we talking altar girls here? Since when did altar girls fall under an infallible doctrine? It’s a discipline. Any who’s the authority over disciplines? Oh yeah, the Pope!

 

[bear06]

I I KNEW IT!!! This confirms it, the answer I was re-searching for: bear06 seems to disregard ALL OTHER PREVIOUS POPES and all previous church teaching(Probably even the Papal Bull of Pope Saint Pius V "Quo Primus).

Misericordie, where in Church doctrine does it say that one Pope is bound by another Popes teachings in areas of DISCIPLINE? That would make many, mostly pre-Vatican II Popes in grave error if it was true since disciplines have changed probably 1,000 of times. You seem to have difficulty distinguinshing between things that are discipline and things that are doctrine.

Ummm, bear: some news: Pope John Paul II did NOT nullate all his predecessors.

Ummm… misericordie, some news, Pope John Paul has changed some of the DISCIPLINES of his predecessors which is his jurisdiction. If this was not true then the mass would be said in the exact same way as Peter said it.

RECENTLY: Redemptionis Sacramentum: Cardinal Arinze has(hence the Pope’s words: HE approved it) has stated that the "noble TRADITION of altar BOYS is to be conserved.

Yes, and where has anyone challenged this one?

Ummmmm, can women become priests?

No and this is in the Deposit of Faith. So,what’s your point.

Again, you take a document from Rome which not always is written by the POPE HIMSELF out of contextand again you make EVERY UTTERED WORD(even when the pope talks about hockey) to say that all catholics MUST play hockey too.

]

Once again, I ask you to stand by your statement and provide a quote from me that proves this. You can say it over and over again but it doesn’t make it true. What does hockey have to do with a discipline of the Church. Are you saying that Pater Aeternus, a dogmatic constituion, is to be ignored?

 

[bear06]

TNT:

If it had not been for the rising popularity of the SSPX and independent chapels offering the TLM, BEFORE it was ever approved, but believed to be valid under Quo Primus, the Vatican would never have let you have an indult. Rest assured. You have them to thank. The VAT II church hates the TLM. It is a bugger thorn in their side.
I got married at an indult mass recently. I invited all my N-ordo firends - about 200. To the person, including a n-ordo priest, they were in awe.
Thank you, independents and SSPX for forcing the hand of VAT II Church.

Oh my, somehow I think you would have a heart attack if you applied the same logic to those who allowed altar girls or Communion in the hand before they were allowed by the Pope. It surely wasn’t a good thing to go into schism no matter what the outcome.

The VAT II church hates the TLM.

How often do you see the TLM attacked? The attack almost always comes from the rad-Trads on the normative Mass. I can say that people who attend the normative Mass do get very weary at having the Mass that they attend constantly attacked.

I live in an EXTREMELY liberal diocese and you know what? One very patient priest who NEVER attacked the normative Mass requested and waited for permission to say the normative Mass in Latin and then we requested and waited for permission to be granted for the Indult. Both which he got in a fairly short amount of time. I can guarantee that if he had ranted and raved as some of the people in this discussion do, we would have never gotten an indult under our former bishop. I’ve said it before, some of you guys do far more damage to the spread of the TLM than any liberal.

 

[TNT]

bear06:

Are we talking altar girls here? Since when did altar girls fall under an infallible doctrine? It’s a discipline. Any who’s the authority over disciplines? Oh yeah, the Pope!

Yes, we are talking about altar girls. It is not infallible unless you think the constant teaching of popes and the magisterium gives credence to Sacred Tradition, the Deposit of Faith, and the mind of Christ.
The VAT II church admits that altar girls is an innovation, and depleting the number of altar boys. It also admits that altar boys are more likely to be priests than non-altar boys.
So, what is the fruit of altar girls other than innovation for its own sake?
Was JPII correct in his 1980 encyclical or his letter of 1994?
They both can’t be correct.
Still no answer.
If it wasn’t for bear06, there would be too much harmony on this thread.
Gotta love him.

 

[bear06]

TNT:

Yes, we are talking about altar girls. It is not infallible unless you think the constant teaching of popes and the magisterium gives credence to Sacred Tradition, the Deposit of Faith, and the mind of Christ.
The VAT II church admits that altar girls is an innovation, and depleting the number of altar boys. It also admits that altar boys are more likely to be priests than non-altar boys.
So, what is the fruit of altar girls other than innovation for its own sake?
Was JPII correct in his 1980 encyclical or his letter of 1994?
They both can’t be correct.
Still no answer.
If it wasn’t for bear06, there would be too much harmony on this thread.
Gotta love him.

Did I ever said it was infallible? Of course not, it’s a discipline. If it was infallible it couldn’t be changed. It is a discipline and the fact is the Pope can change a discipline, even one he has set, yes? In fact, I’m hoping he excludes girls again! Please read Pater Aeternus and how we are bound to matters of discipline and who the real authority is in these matters. And before misericordie brings up football, we are talking about disciplines of the Church. Can anyone show me a different document that trumps Pater Aeternus, a dogmatic constitution?

If then any shall say that the Roman Pontiff has the office merely of inspection or direction, and not full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church, not only in things which belong to faith and morals, but also in those things which relate to the discipline and government of the Church spread throughout the world; or assert that he possesses merely the principal part, and not all the fullness of this supreme power; or that this power which he enjoys is not ordinary and immediate, both over each and all the Churches and over each and all the pastors of the faithful; let him be anathema" (Pastor Aeternus,).Ch. III; Denz. 1831)

Hence we teach and declare that by the appointment of our Lord the Roman Church possesses a sovereignty of ordinary power over all other Churches, and that this power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, which is truly episcopal, is immediate to which ail, of whatsoever rite and dignity, **both pastors and faithful, both individually and collectively, are bound, by their duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, to submit, not only in matters which belong to faith and morals, but also in those that appertain to the discipline and government of the Church ** throughout the world; so that the Church of Christ may be one flock under one supreme pastor through the preservation of unity, both of communion and of profession of the same faith, with the Roman pontiff." (Pastor Aeternus, Ch. III; Denz. 1827)

 

[misericordie]

bear06:

Misericordie, where in Church doctrine does it say that one Pope is bound by another Popes teachings in areas of DISCIPLINE? That would make many, mostly pre-Vatican II Popes in grave error if it was true since disciplines have changed probably 1,000 of times. You seem to have difficulty distinguinshing between things that are discipline and things that are doctrine.

Ummm… misericordie, some news, Pope John Paul has changed some of the DISCIPLINES of his predecessors which is his jurisdiction. If this was not true then the mass would be said in the exact same way as Peter said it.

Yes, and where has anyone challenged this one?

No and this is in the Deposit of Faith. So,what’s your point.

]

Once again, I ask you to stand by your statement and provide a quote from me that proves this. You can say it over and over again but it doesn’t make it true. What does hockey have to do with a discipline of the Church. Are you saying that Pater Aeternus, a dogmatic constituion, is to be ignored?

Okay, just like the sacrament forum's thread on Communion in the hand: YOU will begin to go around in cirlcles, so here goes bear::ehh: :yawn: :yawn: :sleep:

 

[TNT]

Noticed!! I can’t speak even a word of latin so…

When you get some time, try these sites and enjoy:

home.earthlink.net/~thesaurus/index.htm

home.earthlink.net/~thesaurus/Thesaurus.html

sspv.net/music.htm
%between%

 

[misericordie]

TNT:

If it had not been for the rising popularity of the SSPX and independent chapels offering the TLM, BEFORE it was ever approved, but believed to be valid under Quo Primus, the Vatican would never have let you have an indult. Rest assured. You have them to thank. The VAT II church hates the TLM. It is a bugger thorn in their side.
I got married at an indult mass recently. I invited all my N-ordo firends - about 200. To the person, including a n-ordo priest, they were in awe.
Thank you, independents and SSPX for forcing the hand of VAT II Church.

Everyone: ECCE HOMO!!! Behold the man. Now here is a CATHOLIC who sincerely knows his faith:clapping: . Yes I TOTALLY agree agree with you: LOL can you imagine the “love” these American Bishops have for the Latin Tridentine Mass?? Of course not, most are older than 64, and well that’s the SP:nerd: IRIT of Vatican II croud Well, maybe there is hope=in another 25 years, half will be very elderly already or will have passed of old age. Of course there are REAL ones(No offense bear06) like Archbishops Chaput, Burke, Curtis of Omaha, and, and, and Sorry I cannot think of any more here, it seems I had to think and think over again to try to find at least one more, but could not.