Why is the Tridentine Mass popular?

[oat_soda]

The love of the traditional Latin Mass goes well beyond the language it is said in… It is also not an easy thing to understand, nor should it be. Faith is not easy. We should want to stretch ourselves beyond the mundane, beyond our ordinary lives.

i agree. the problem is with interpretation of sacrosanctum concilium. it contradicts itself and is very ambiguous. for instance

1. The rites should be distinguished by a noble simplicity; they should be short, clear, and unencumbered by useless repetitions; they should be within the people’s powers of comprehension, and normally should not require much explanation

what exactly is a noble simplicity? this statement bascially calls for the the changes we see in today’s mass. how can something be comprehensible if it is in latin? Latin requires explanation and effort on the part of the laity.

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

all preserved means is that it doesn’t totally dissapear. if only one church uses Latin, then it is preserved.

1. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2,** to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used**; …

so, if the Pope and bishops don’t have a problem with no Latin, then it is ok.

1. Zeal for the promotion and restoration of the **liturgy **is rightly held to be a **sign **of the providential dispositions of God in our time, as a movement of the Holy Spirit in His Church. …

again, a very ambiguous statement. is cardinal mahony’s zeal a sign of the Holy Spirit, or is Fr. Fessio’s zeal? they both contradict each other.

1. For the same reason every diocese is to have a commission on the sacred liturgy under the direction of the bishop, for promoting the liturgical apostolate.

recipe for disaster.

1. The rite for the baptism of infants is to be revised…

1. The rite of confirmation is to be revised

1. The rite and formulas for the sacrament of penance are to be revised…

1. The marriage rite now found in the Roman Ritual is to be revised

1. The sacramentals are to undergo a revision …

1. The rite for the consecration of virgins at present found in the Roman Pontifical is to be revised.

1. The rite for the burial of infants is to be revised,…

sounds to me like everything is to be revised.

1. 1. In accordance with the centuries-old tradition of the Latin rite, the Latin language is to be retained by clerics in the divine office…

and more contradiction

1. The competent superior has the power to grant the use of the vernacular in the celebration of the divine office…

1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

again, it leaves a way out of using latin.

1. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, …But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship,

more ambiguity

1. Ordinaries, … should strive after noble beauty rather than mere sumptuous display.

what is noble beauty and what is sumptuous display?? who decides??

And when churches are to be built, let great care be taken that they be suitable for the celebration of liturgical services and for the active participation of the faithful.

this is why we have ugly churches. this document is to blame for our problems today. it doesn’t say much of anything but that everything should be changed without much reguard to continuity between the old and new mass.

 

[Marines]

The love of the traditional Latin Mass goes well beyond the language it is said in… It is also not an easy thing to understand, nor should it be. Faith is not easy. We should want to stretch ourselves beyond the mundane, beyond our ordinary lives.

Podo/ Crusader,
Would either of you like to comment on this?

• Joe

 

[Iohannes]

-How about the requirement the priest not to seperate his fingure after the Consecration? That is more reverent than the other option?

-How about the sign of the Cross is made on each person before receiving Holy Communion, isn’t it more reverent than an EMHC giving you Holy Communion.

-Domine non sum Dignus said three times, one for the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

-Gospel is read North signifing that the Good news must be spread to cold areas.

-The maniple, signifying the priest fearless of suffering and labour.

-Psalm 42(Judica me) again, reminding that God is in charge no matter what.

-Yes, the pope and Rome can make some mistakes, they are human too(Assisi, etc)

-How about having the altar boy hands clasped together in a prayer mode instead of one’s pocket?

-How about the requirement of a paten, so that no precious Body maybe dropped?

-It is easier to teach the Catholic faith with a Missal of St. Pius the V than it is with the Missal of Pau VI. For example, Ad Orientem requirement can teach a person that Christ will come from the East. The Missal Transfer signfies the movement from the Old testament to the New Testament. The Mysterium Fidei is more clear in the TLM that the Consecration is the Mystery of Faith. There are more examples.

 

[Iohannes]

And also, many of the liturgical abuses in the Novus Ordo go unpunished or the hiearchy turns a blind eye.

 

[khkhk]

bob:

Hey! Don’t jump on me! I know that you’re for the N.O. that was why I added “On a separate issue”. I just needed to verify about Tridentine vs Latin N.O.with you.

The “separate issues” were not addressed to you.
Ouch! You’re shouting and my ears hurt.

Sorry… I get a little ummm…irritated sometimes…

 

[khkhk]

Podo2004:

I agree it’s the way people are brought up… there are alot of people who don’t go to church, don’t care… but you see Sarah, some people can’t accept change…so they go on telling people that the NO mass has so many faults, isn’t joyful and is irreverent so they they might come back to the old mass… as i said before the mass today is just as reverent as yesterday, and it is more joyful… how many of you can actually speak latin fluently??
Podo

Noticed!! I can’t speak even a word of latin so…

 

[khkhk]

Podo2004:

exactly…OI what am i saying??? I’m a boy…:bigyikes:
kidding… no but it’s actually true there are alot of girls who do it really well… i’ve just recruited some for my parish…
Podo

lol still working on it…

 

[TNT]

***… John Kerry should NOT be allowed to go to communion, not until he publically retracts his position. I assume he would go to confession and that his penance would be a private matter. ***

Actually, Kerry got divorced without anullment and then married outside the Church to another person. I believe that makes him ipso facto excommunicated regardless of his abortion position.
WMI

 

[TNT]

Noticed!! I can’t speak even a word of latin so…

Sure you do…
Try AVE MARIA… that will do for a start. Even Protestants use it.

Love,
WMI

 

[TNT]

khkhk:

I …but I don’t like not having girl alter servers. Some girls I’ve seen are much better in terms of respect, and stuff like that, than some boy alter servers!!!

Individual piety or reverence is not the point. After all, who would disagree that some same-sex unions are more affectionate and respectful than some heterosexual marriages?

The altar boy is a preparation to discerning a calling to the priesthood. A girl can go no further than an altar girl. It can lead to priestess feminism. But then you may agree with that too. But revelation, as the Pope says, gives the Church no authority to install priestesses.

 

[TNT]

JKirkLVNV Writes in #69:

If what you say is true, I only have this response: There is only one Vicar of Christ on this earth. We must, in conscience, submit to his authority. If SSPX is in schism, then it is their choice as a society to remain in schism, regardless of what might motivate the Holy Father to not bend to their demands/requests/humble petitions. They should leave the Society as individuals and return as individuals, if they cannot come as a society. You say that the Holy Father’s commission found that TLM was a right of all Latin Rite priests. That seems good enough. Let them return and celebrate that rite. I do not mean to sound uncharitible. I do not see why both rites cannot be celebrated. As you said, there are several “rites” within the Latin “Rite.”

As I understand it the bru-ha with the SSPX is twofold:

1. 
   *]They will never agree to say the N-Ordo Mass which is defacto denying its legitimacy.
   *]They will not accept the VAT II document on Religious Liberty, which they see as an novelty against the constant teaching of the magisterium of the Church, wherein error has equal rights with truth in it’s outward expression through various religious sects.
   
   Those who left the SSPX and came into the VAT II Church were those who would accept these 2 conditions. They are most commonly known as the FSSP. These are the ones who offer the TLM via Church and local bishop permission.
   
   As I understand it, a schismatic denies the primacy of the Pontiff, but may well accept all the other dogmas of the Church. The SSPX professes the Primacy of the pontiff, but simply are in disobedience to the 2 specific orders as noted above. They do NOT really meet the definition of schism. They are in disobedience and excommunicated for that reason only.
   Whether their disobedience is justified as one may not be forced to act against his conscience (also a VAT II document that agrees with the constant magisterium)…well, have fun with that.

 

[TNT]

MrS:

…“for many” instead of the “for all” etc., I was heartened at his explanations of the abuses that come with translation “errors” from Latin to English, and how the Vatican is addressing these issues (slow but sure). When the Church makes these corrections, “many”, not “all” will be upset and perhaps fall away. We can reduce that number with prayer, and instruction.

(See thread 13.)
Not so fast… You may have an interminable wait. Here is the Pope’s own Encyclical: ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA
Para 2. (Only about 18 months ago.) He Himself, uses Pro omnibus and not Pro multis… in the original Latin text.

It is there that Christ took bread, broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying: “Take this, all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you” (cf. Mk 26:26; Lk 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24). Then he took the cup of wine and said to them: “Take this, all of you and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all**,** so that sins may be forgiven” (cf. Mt 14:24; Lk 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25). I am grateful to the Lord Jesus for allowing me to repeat in that same place, in obedience to his command: “Do this in memory of me” (Lk 22:19), the words which he spoke two thousand years ago.

Interesting that his bible references do not correspond to his quote.
I believe the Catechism of Trent had a doctrinal article on just this point of mischief by the de-formers of the 16th century

 

[Iohannes]

Originally Posted by khkhk
Noticed!! I can’t speak even a word of latin so…

hmmm…

Common latin usages:

-sic,
-et cetera
-circa
-Anno Domini
-agenda
-referendum
-cirriculum vitae
-ad nauseum
-ad hoc
-ad hominem
-ad infinitum
-senator
-terminator
-lector
-auditorium
-forum
-natatorium
-stadium
-circus
-maximum
-minimum
-magna carta
-Amanda
-ante
-bellum
-felix
-rumor
-semper
-virus
-status quo
-data
-doctor
-video
-minor
-major
-junior
-miser
-arena
-spectator
-genius
-aborigine
-deficit
-rabies
-series
-squalor
-facsimile
-bonus
-bona fide
-paterfamillas
-patron(nus)
-client(elia)
-stimulus
-duo
-in
-clamor

 

[bear06]

As I understand it, a schismatic denies the primacy of the Pontiff,

This is not the definition of schism. This is:

schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him." [Code of Canon Law c.751]

Here’s a great paper on the Lefebvre schism.
tcrnews2.com/sspx.html

 

[misericordie]

OrthoCath:

MrS,

As a Post-Vatican II person I can say that I “get more out” of the Traditional Mass than the Novus Ordo. In fact, I will only go to an Novus Ordo if I absolutely have to even then I pray before the Mass that I will not be infected with the “spirit of Vatican II” during the Mass.

Hurray, me too!!!:clapping:

 

[khkhk]

Iohannes:

hmmm…

Common latin usages:

-sic,
-et cetera
-circa
-Anno Domini
-agenda
-referendum
-cirriculum vitae
-ad nauseum
-ad hoc
-ad hominem
-ad infinitum
-senator
-terminator
-lector
-auditorium
-forum
-natatorium
-stadium
-circus
-maximum
-minimum
-magna carta
-Amanda
-ante
-bellum
-felix
-rumor
-semper
-virus
-status quo
-data
-doctor
-video
-minor
-major
-junior
-miser
-arena
-spectator
-genius
-aborigine
-deficit
-rabies
-series
-squalor
-facsimile
-bonus
-bona fide
-paterfamillas
-patron(nus)
-client(elia)
-stimulus
-duo
-in
-clamor

Ok, so I do…but not fluently. If someone started speaking latin, I would know it, but I wouldn’t understand it…Don’t the words just have suffixes or prefixes of latin???

 

[khkhk]

TNT:

Individual piety or reverence is not the point. After all, who would disagree that some same-sex unions are more affectionate and respectful than some heterosexual marriages?

The altar boy is a preparation to discerning a calling to the priesthood. A girl can go no further than an altar girl. It can lead to priestess feminism. But then you may agree with that too. But revelation, as the Pope says, gives the Church no authority to install priestesses.

That’s not a good comparison to what we are talking about. Same-sex unions are wrong. Girl alter servers aren’t wrong. Any straight person knows that “priestesses” are wrong. What is wrong with serving our Lord? Well, being an alter girl will not go farther than being an alter girl, but that doesn’t mean girls can’t. It’s a form of service. A form of stewardship. Giving time to God.

 

[TNT]

(See thread 13.)
Here is the Pope’s own Encyclical: ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA

The Latin Text Original is:
Deinde calicem in manus vini sustulit eisque dixit: “Accipite et bibite omnes: hic calix novum aeternumque testamentum est in sanguine meo, qui pro vobis funditur et pro omnibus in remissionem peccatorum” (cfr* Mc *14, 24; Lc 22, 20; 1 Cor 11, 25). Grati erga Dominum Iesum sumus Nobis qui permisit eodem loco ut repeteremus, mandato illius oboedientes: “Hoc facite in meam commemorationem” (Lc 22, 21), voces eas ab Eo duobus annorum abhinc milibus pronuntiatas.

See: vatican.va/edocs/LAT0762/__P1.HTM

The pope is a willing particpant in changing the Gospel. It was not just a renegade ICEL.
Matt 26;28 :
For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins. DRV
Lk 22;20:
In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.​

From the Catechism of the Council of Trent:
From Part II: The Sacraments, under the Explanation of the Form to be Used for the Consecration of the Wine:

The additional words for you and for many, are taken, some from Matthew, some from Luke, but were joined together by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Spirit of God.
They serve to declare the fruit and advantage of His Passion. For if we look to its value, we must confess that the Redeemer shed His blood for the salvation of all; but if we look to the fruit which mankind have received from it, we shall easily find that it pertains not unto all, but to many of the human race. When therefore (Our Lord) said: “For you”, He meant either those who were present, or those chosen from among the Jewish people, such as were, with the exception of Judas, the disciples with whom He was speaking. When He added, And for many, He wished to be understood to mean the remainder of the elect from among the Jews or Gentiles.
With reason, therefore, were the words for all not used, . . .

So, the guidance of the Holy Spirit either changed His guidance, in which case He can’t make up His mind and the Mormons are correct, or, the New Mass and the Encyclical is a preamble to universalism.

If I comply with Trent I am refusing the pope’s encyclical and the New Mass. If I reverse, then I refuse to comply with Trent and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Which is the Magisterium? They cannot both be correct.

Am I in schism in either case?
ps. I have no idea why he references Matt 14;24.It may be a typo.

 

[TNT]

**khkhk Writes in #117: **…Girl alter servers aren’t wrong. Any straight person knows that “priestesses” are wrong…

I’m not sure that Roman Catholicism is on your side. Episcopalians are, however.

Now, in the case of a religious tradition which has not only existed, but has been consciously, continuously, and emphatically reaffirmed and insisted upon for two millennia, there must be a very strong presumption that such a tradition reflects the will of Christ. And this is in fact the case with the tradition against female altar service. In the Vatican journal Notitiæ, the liturgical scholar, Aimé-Georges Martimort, affirms thatthe general discipline of the Church against female altar service has been set in stone by canon 44 of the Collection of Laodicea which dates generally from the end of the 4th century (300’s AD) and which has figured in almost all canonical collections of East and West.

Martimort also recalls that Popes ever since St. Gelasius in 494 had denounced this practice as an abuse. It appears there were already feminist influences making themselves felt in Sicily and southern Italy at that time, and Pope St. Gelasius felt obliged to write to the bishops of those regions saying

We have heard with sorrow of the great contempt mépris] with which the sacred mysteries have been treated. It has reached the point where women have been encouraged to serve at the altar, and to carry out roles that are not suited to their sex, having been assigned exclusively to those of masculine gender.

Every edition of the Roman Missal from 1570 till 1962 carried the prohibition of female altar servers, as did the 1917 Code of Canon Law (c. 813, §2), not to mention the documents of the post-conciliar liturgical reform.

From: **Liturgicae Instaurationes
****Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship
Instruction on the orderly carrying out of the Constitution on the Liturgy, September 5, 1970.
7. In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.

From: Encyclical Inaestimabile Donum
Approved and Confirmed by His Holiness Pope John Paul II April 17, 1980
18. There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.(27)

So, are you in schism if you refuse to obey the Pontiff in this matter? No matter your personal preferences?
Is Altar girls Roman Catholic? Does it reflect the mind of Christ?

 

[bear06]

[Every edition of the Roman Missal from 1570 till 1962 carried the prohibition of female altar servers, as did the 1917 *Code of Canon Law

(c. 813, §2), not to mention the documents of the post-conciliar liturgical reform.

From: **Liturgicae Instaurationes
Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship
Instruction on the orderly carrying out of the Constitution on the Liturgy, September 5, 1970.
7. In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.

From: Encyclical Inaestimabile Donum
Approved and Confirmed by His Holiness Pope John Paul II April 17, 1980
18. There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.(27)

So, are you in schism if you refuse to obey the Pontiff in this matter? No matter your personal preferences?
Is Altar girls Roman Catholic? Does it reflect the mind of Christ?
How about some things the current Pope has said? He has the jursidiction over disciplines, yes? You don’t have to like altar girls. You don’t have to be an altar girl or allow your children to be altar girls. Mine won’t be. However, saying they are wrong is a whole other thing. Let’s just look at another pre-Vatican II document (emphasis mine):

Hence we teach and declare that by the appointment of our Lord the Roman Church possesses a sovereignty of ordinary power over all other Churches, and that this power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, which is truly episcopal, is immediate to which ail, of whatsoever rite and dignity, **both pastors and faithful, both individually and collectively, are bound, by their duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, to submit, not only in matters which belong to faith and morals, but *also in those that appertain to the discipline *** and government of the Church throughout the world; so that the Church of Christ may be one flock under one supreme pastor through the preservation of unity, both of communion and of profession of the same faith, with the Roman pontiff." (Pastor Aeternus, Ch. III; Denz. 1827)

Somehow I don’t think you are submitting to the Pope if you are saying that altar girls or other things in the post Vatican II missal are wrong. Submission is a very important thing when we’re talking about things that are under the Pope’s jurisdiction.