J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
FrmrTrad: You are very articulate, as well a charitable. You presented the case very well. May God bless you and all others on this thread.
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I
Iohannes
Guest
OK,
I am sick and tired of traditionalist being accused of “being holier than thou”. The progressives can just apply the same thing to you guys who accuse Traditionalist.
I have not yet met a traditionalist who say they are “holier than anyone else” au contraire, they most often think they are the biggest sinners. This is my experience.
“Indult” Catholics are sick to the bones that the bishop has the possiblity to cancel any Traditional Latin Mass at anytime and possibly force them to go to a nearby “lifeteen” Mass.
Yes, the Novus Ordo, is a valid Mass, but it has major problems, it is easily bastardized, prayers changed around to demphasize the Sacrificial part of the Mass for example, the new placement of the Mysterium Fidei. Along with that, a terrible English translations Catholics have to endure.
For you guys who say there is a “danger” of opinions of any traditional community, then there is a harm attending the Novus Ordo since many of them in the pews are indifferent, liberal, dont care, secularist. I do not go to Mass because of the people, I go for the Sacrifice of Calvary.
If you have not noticed, there is a decline in Catholic culture in the United States. Where are the Corpus Christi processions, perpetual adoration, daily rosaries, stable families and Catholics actually going to Mass?
More and more Catholics are lost to secularism, modernism, americanism, protestantism than to the “schismatic” sspx. If you want a good proof of this, look at the recent elections. In California, a majority of Catholics supported embroynic murder*. Before you all worrry about the SSPX, traditionalist, indulters why don’t you pull your own splinters from your own eyes and worry about the peoples in your own pews.
Despite the fact that the SSPX are disobiedent, at least they have not given in into modernism and americanism like the U.S hierachy have done.(Example, ecumenism, saying all religions are equal or allow Kerry to receive Holy Communion)
I am sick and tired of traditionalist being accused of “being holier than thou”. The progressives can just apply the same thing to you guys who accuse Traditionalist.
I have not yet met a traditionalist who say they are “holier than anyone else” au contraire, they most often think they are the biggest sinners. This is my experience.
“Indult” Catholics are sick to the bones that the bishop has the possiblity to cancel any Traditional Latin Mass at anytime and possibly force them to go to a nearby “lifeteen” Mass.
Yes, the Novus Ordo, is a valid Mass, but it has major problems, it is easily bastardized, prayers changed around to demphasize the Sacrificial part of the Mass for example, the new placement of the Mysterium Fidei. Along with that, a terrible English translations Catholics have to endure.
For you guys who say there is a “danger” of opinions of any traditional community, then there is a harm attending the Novus Ordo since many of them in the pews are indifferent, liberal, dont care, secularist. I do not go to Mass because of the people, I go for the Sacrifice of Calvary.
If you have not noticed, there is a decline in Catholic culture in the United States. Where are the Corpus Christi processions, perpetual adoration, daily rosaries, stable families and Catholics actually going to Mass?
More and more Catholics are lost to secularism, modernism, americanism, protestantism than to the “schismatic” sspx. If you want a good proof of this, look at the recent elections. In California, a majority of Catholics supported embroynic murder*. Before you all worrry about the SSPX, traditionalist, indulters why don’t you pull your own splinters from your own eyes and worry about the peoples in your own pews.
Despite the fact that the SSPX are disobiedent, at least they have not given in into modernism and americanism like the U.S hierachy have done.(Example, ecumenism, saying all religions are equal or allow Kerry to receive Holy Communion)
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Podo2004
Guest
(sigh) Which bad fruits? Name some or is that all you guys can do? Criticize the mass of today? The mass today is more joyful than the mass of the past, Jesus is fully present in the novus ordo both in the liturgy of the eucharist and the word. And the mass today is just as reverant…and there are alot of things to do during the mass like singing, altar serving, lectoring and all other ministries…i’m tired of hearing that vatican II made alot of liturgical abuses to the church and that it has bad fruits and all. It didn’t, it made the mass better in my opinion, but you guys have a fit when someone expresses their opinion about liking vatican 2. Thank God for blessing me with the spirit of vatican II.I guess the anti-Trads (perhaps because so many are “Latin-loathers”) want it both ways.
First, the Pope says the NO is a valid Mass, so that is all we should be happy with. But when the Pope says the TLM is fully acceptable, and we should return to a wider use of it and the Gregorian music etc, well, then they say the Trads are jeopordizing the faith.
As for the fruits of Vatican II.,… how can we not include the bad fruits of the abuses of Vatican II?? I guess the fluff-off would be that the Index of Leading Catholic Indicators - the Church Since Vatican II, by Ken Jones, is just putting a spin on the numbers.:banghead:
Thank God that more and more Catholics (especially younger ones) are in awe of the level of reverence in the TLM and aware of the decrease in reverence and prayer that is the “bad fruits” of VatII abuses.
Podo
Just because the Pope says it’s acceptable doesn’t mean we have to FULLy return to it, if it was that way then there would have been no point for the novus ordo
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khkhk
Guest
I’m with Podo on this!!! The N.O. mass can be just as reverent as the Latin mass!!! It is all on how you and your thoughts are!!! If you go to the N.O. mass with the attitude of “Well, I’m only going to this mass because I can’t get to the Latin Mass.” obviously you aren’t going to be giving full reverence where it is needed!!! But, also you have to remember, the problem isn’t the mass!!! It’s the attitude of the people there. Of not paying full attention, of not caring, of not caring about religion, only going because their parents “make them”. I get so much out of the N.O. mass because I fully participate, and am willing to be there, and want to serve God and am reverent, trying to give all to God. But also, quit blaming all the Church’s problems on Vatican 2!!! Tell me, where did Vatican 2 say the following:
Get rid of the Communion rails
Get rid of having the Tabernacle in the center of the alter
Have the Risen Christ Cross
etc, etc…
It wasn’t Vatican 2!!!, it was how after Vatican 2, the Bishops and Priests percieved it!!! It’s not the N.O. mass that’s irreverent, it’s the people! Society needs to change, not the mass!!!
Get rid of the Communion rails
Get rid of having the Tabernacle in the center of the alter
Have the Risen Christ Cross
etc, etc…
It wasn’t Vatican 2!!!, it was how after Vatican 2, the Bishops and Priests percieved it!!! It’s not the N.O. mass that’s irreverent, it’s the people! Society needs to change, not the mass!!!
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Podo2004
Guest
Sarah!!!Podo
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katolik
Guest
quote=Podo2004 Which bad fruits? Name some or is that all you guys can do? Criticize the mass of today? The mass today is more joyful than the mass of the past, Jesus is fully present in the novus ordo both in the liturgy of the eucharist and the word. And the mass today is just as reverant…and there are alot of things to do during the mass like singing, altar serving, lectoring and all other ministries…i’m tired of hearing that vatican II made alot of liturgical abuses to the church and that it has bad fruits and all. It didn’t, it made the mass better in my opinion, but you guys have a fit when someone expresses their opinion about liking vatican 2. Thank God for blessing me with the spirit of vatican II.
Podo
Just because the Pope says it’s acceptable doesn’t mean we have to FULLy return to it, if it was that way then there would have been no point for the novus ordo
[/quote]
1st,
How do you the Mass today is more joyful, have you ever experienced a TLM?
2nd,
How is Christ present in the Liturgy of the Catechumens?
3rd,
Do you know how many priests and nuns there were PreVatican II, COMPARED TO NOW?
Podo
Just because the Pope says it’s acceptable doesn’t mean we have to FULLy return to it, if it was that way then there would have been no point for the novus ordo
[/quote]
1st,
How do you the Mass today is more joyful, have you ever experienced a TLM?
2nd,
How is Christ present in the Liturgy of the Catechumens?
3rd,
Do you know how many priests and nuns there were PreVatican II, COMPARED TO NOW?
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
***Ecumenism is wrong IF it says all religions are equal. I’ve never heard a priest say that (I must lead a really sheltered existence!). Ecumenism is needed, to a degree, if we are to bear witness to who Christ is and who we are…His Church, the only one who holds His mandate to BE the Church on this earth. John Kerry should NOT be allowed to go to communion, not until he publically retracts his position. I assume he would go to confession and that his penance would be a private matter. ***
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
katolik said:
For #3, I assume that is simply a deterioration of the world at large and the decline of our society. There isn’t of necessity a correlation between Vatican II, the Mass of Paul VI, and the decline of vocations. The world was changing in LOTS of ways in the 60’s and 70’s.
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bob
Guest
My prayers are with you! (You sound like you’ve got lots of credits in heaven anyway).
Rome wasn’t built in a day.
Take a slow boat to the Vatican.
You have recourse all the way up to John Paul II.
B
bob
Guest
Correct me if I am wrong -
The N.O. mass can be said in the vernacular or Latin.
This Latin version is not the same as the Tridentine Mass.
On a separate issue:
Is the “quarrel” here with the language of the mass, nostalgia, the abuse of the N.O. mass or just that the N.O mass is completely horrible?
Wishing for the “Good ole Days” will not make it change.
Accept the mass for what it is now.
Accept the teaching Authority of the Church.
Accept that it knows better than us where the reverence of the mass is concerned.
If we all participate fully and faithfully in the mass instead of nitpicking on why it should/could be better, then our mass will be richer for us.
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Iohannes
Guest
What makes the Traditional Latin Mass superior to the Novus Ordo?
-The placement of the Mysterium Fidei in the Traditional Latin Mass is superior since it teaches that the Mystery of Faith is the Consecration. In the New Mass it is not as clear.
-The Offertory of the New Mass has been watered down.
-The other three Eucharistic prayer do not mention or barely mention the word “sacrifice” or “oblation”
-The prayers of the foot of the altar in the Traditional Latin Mass, has Psalm 42. A beautiful prayer reminding people that God is in charge and it has the word “altar” in it.
-more symbols in the Traditional Latin Mass that makes it superior to the Novus Ordo includes:
-Gospel facing north
-mandatory Ad Orientem
-Missal Transfer signfying the move from the old testament to the new testament.
-Maniple-symbol of priest fearless of suffering and labor
Is the Novus Ordo valid and licit, yes. Is the Novus Ordo more reverent than the Traditional Latin Mass, no.
The debate is not about nostalga, it is about the problems of liturgical reforms.
For the record, I seen people who are more devoted to the Pauline Mass just as orthodox and traditional as the folks who are devoted to Traditional Latin Mass.
What I am sick of seeing is that traditionalist are being spat upon and disrespected or treated as paraiah for not having altar girls.
-The placement of the Mysterium Fidei in the Traditional Latin Mass is superior since it teaches that the Mystery of Faith is the Consecration. In the New Mass it is not as clear.
-The Offertory of the New Mass has been watered down.
-The other three Eucharistic prayer do not mention or barely mention the word “sacrifice” or “oblation”
-The prayers of the foot of the altar in the Traditional Latin Mass, has Psalm 42. A beautiful prayer reminding people that God is in charge and it has the word “altar” in it.
-more symbols in the Traditional Latin Mass that makes it superior to the Novus Ordo includes:
-Gospel facing north
-mandatory Ad Orientem
-Missal Transfer signfying the move from the old testament to the new testament.
-Maniple-symbol of priest fearless of suffering and labor
Is the Novus Ordo valid and licit, yes. Is the Novus Ordo more reverent than the Traditional Latin Mass, no.
The debate is not about nostalga, it is about the problems of liturgical reforms.
For the record, I seen people who are more devoted to the Pauline Mass just as orthodox and traditional as the folks who are devoted to Traditional Latin Mass.
What I am sick of seeing is that traditionalist are being spat upon and disrespected or treated as paraiah for not having altar girls.
K
khkhk
Guest
My “term” for the Tridentine Mass is “The Latin Mass”, but yes, the N.O. Mass can be said in latin. Where did I say anything against the N.O. mass? I’m very much for the N.O. Mass! The people on here are complaing that the N.O. mass is “irreverent, and not as good” as the Tridentine mass. You are just repeating what I said in my last post!!! (The “seperate issue”) I’m totally for the N.O. mass! I’m just telling the people who think that Vatican 2 and the N.O. mass aren’t “as good” as the Tridentine mass that it’s the people perceiving Vatican 2 and the changes made. Society for the most part is in the dumps, so yeah, because of that, and most of the people, there is going to be less reverence, BUT THAT DOESN’T MAKE THE N.O. MASS IRREVERENT, FOR THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE LIKE PODO, THAT STILL HAVE GREAT RESPECT AND REVERENCE. IT’S NOT VATICAN 2’S FAULT FOR THE LACK OF REVERENCE!!! IT’S THE WAY PEOPLE ARE GROWING UP!!! AND NOT CARING!!! DOES ANYONE GET MY POINT???:banghead:
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khkhk
Guest
I greatly disagree! No, I don’t think traditionalists should be “spat upon” either, but I don’t like not having girl alter servers. Some girls I’ve seen are much better in terms of respect, and stuff like that, than some boy alter servers!!!
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
I agree with you, if that’s the case. Bishops who haven’t offered it/allowed it when it is requested should try, in all charity, to ammend that. If parishes where the Mass of Paul VI is celebrated are openly hostile to the Indult, they should be fraternally corrected, just as the Indult Mass people should not disparge the Mass of Paul VI.
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Iohannes
Guest
Even though I find some problems with the New Mass itself, which I base it on textual evidence, I do not doubt anyone sincerty or orthodoxy who attend the Pauline Mass and please do not attack us if we have some objections to the pauline rite, it is not the orthodoxy or validy I am going after, it is the ambigouity and laxity that is the biggest problem of the pauline rite.
Where I come from, traditionalist are spat upon, wither they are loyal to the Holy Father or not, anyone who likes the Traditional Latin Mass is deemed a nut, I mean anyone, does not matter (SSPX, indult). The only reason why I have some sympathy of the SSPX is that the Bishops do not offer it generously, they may in your area, but my area, they are doing their best to suppress the legit indult movement.There is even some non-traditional groups who are supporting our cause because of the rude treatment of the bishop. Yes, there are plenty of traditionalist in my area who attend the most beautiful Latin Novus Ordo, including me.
Where I come from, traditionalist are spat upon, wither they are loyal to the Holy Father or not, anyone who likes the Traditional Latin Mass is deemed a nut, I mean anyone, does not matter (SSPX, indult). The only reason why I have some sympathy of the SSPX is that the Bishops do not offer it generously, they may in your area, but my area, they are doing their best to suppress the legit indult movement.There is even some non-traditional groups who are supporting our cause because of the rude treatment of the bishop. Yes, there are plenty of traditionalist in my area who attend the most beautiful Latin Novus Ordo, including me.
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bob
Guest
Hey! Don’t jump on me! I know that you’re for the N.O. that was why I added “On a separate issue”. I just needed to verify about Tridentine vs Latin N.O.with you.
The “separate issues” were not addressed to you.
Ouch! You’re shouting and my ears hurt.
B
bob
Guest
As far as I am concerned although I grew up as an altar boy serving mass in Latin, I am still “too young” to really compare Tridentine mass(about 15 years) to N.O.(about 40 years)
I am not against anyone or school of thought on this issue, It is just that I am very comfortable with the N.O. which I know more of than the ole Latin of my youth.
What I feel is important, however, is that the Catholic Church must be universal in its words, thoughts and deeds.
Currently, the beauty of the Church is, that you can walk into any Catholic Church from America to Zimbabwe and be very familiar and perhaps comfortable with the mass.
In my country, we hardly have the Tridentine Mass but the churches are still packed on Sundays.
Weekday lunch time masses are popular. Other weekday masses have significant numbers.
So it cannot be that the N.O. is putting people off mass.
Perhaps because we have minimal abuse of the liturgy.
If we let this Tridentine versus N.O. issue divide the Church, then it will cause tremendous pain for everyone concerned.
The Church does not disallow Tridentine mass it just prefers that we move on to the N.O. Translation errors hopefully, will be corrected soon.
We have enough differences with the Protestants, the SSPXes, etc without tearing each other up over the mass.
Rome has spoken, let it be so. Accept what it has decided and move on.
I am not against anyone or school of thought on this issue, It is just that I am very comfortable with the N.O. which I know more of than the ole Latin of my youth.
What I feel is important, however, is that the Catholic Church must be universal in its words, thoughts and deeds.
Currently, the beauty of the Church is, that you can walk into any Catholic Church from America to Zimbabwe and be very familiar and perhaps comfortable with the mass.
In my country, we hardly have the Tridentine Mass but the churches are still packed on Sundays.
Weekday lunch time masses are popular. Other weekday masses have significant numbers.
So it cannot be that the N.O. is putting people off mass.
Perhaps because we have minimal abuse of the liturgy.
If we let this Tridentine versus N.O. issue divide the Church, then it will cause tremendous pain for everyone concerned.
The Church does not disallow Tridentine mass it just prefers that we move on to the N.O. Translation errors hopefully, will be corrected soon.
We have enough differences with the Protestants, the SSPXes, etc without tearing each other up over the mass.
Rome has spoken, let it be so. Accept what it has decided and move on.
P
Podo2004
Guest
I agree it’s the way people are brought up… there are alot of people who don’t go to church, don’t care… but you see Sarah, some people can’t accept change…so they go on telling people that the NO mass has so many faults, isn’t joyful and is irreverent so they they might come back to the old mass… as i said before the mass today is just as reverent as yesterday, and it is more joyful… how many of you can actually speak latin fluently??
Podo
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Podo2004
Guest
exactly…OI what am i saying??? I’m a boy…:bigyikes:
kidding… no but it’s actually true there are alot of girls who do it really well… i’ve just recruited some for my parish…Podo
A
amasimp
Guest
I think some people are under the misconception that it is just about the Latin. I cannot speak Latin fluently, though I do know some largely from the Mass. However, I can read English and I can follow the Mass just fine in my St. Andrew’s Daily Missal.
The love of the traditional Latin Mass goes well beyond the language it is said in. Consider that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the most EXTRAORDINARY thing we can experience in this life. It is also not an easy thing to understand, nor should it be. Faith is not easy. We should want to stretch ourselves beyond the mundane, beyond our ordinary lives.
Of course this is indeed possible to achieve in the current Missal. I have been to wonderful Novus Ordo Masses and I have also been to a few that made my stomach turn.
Reverence, on the whole, is a subjective matter. So let us make some comparisons. Which is more reverent? A young altar server bored out of his or her mind on the altar and picking his nose (yes I’ve seen that) or that same boy bowing at the Confeteor and striking his breast at the words, “mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa?” Which is more reverent? Kneeling at the communion rail with your hands folded while the priest places the Sacred Host on your tongue or receiving from an EMHC dressed in shorts and T-shirt the Precious Body of Our Lord in the same hands with which you eat your Big Mac?
My dad always says that in matters of opinion there is no argument. So I suppose there is no arguing which of those situations I mentions is more reverent. I know how I’d answer and so I look forward to attending the Indult Tridentine Mass at Stella Maris in Sullivan’s Island, SC tomorrow evening. If you answered the other way, well then, more power to you but don’t expect to see me there.
- Status