Why is the US Catholic church so obsessed with the gay issue?

  • Thread starter Thread starter catholic1seeks
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I know that I very carfully choose my language when I condemn homosexual acts but accept homosexuals. I hate homosexual behavior, but I love homosexuals (or try to, anyway. Love your neighbor is a hard commandment). Most here have made this distinction. There’s no reason for a homosexual lurker to get the idea God hates him because of a mere feeling!

During Mass today I thought of another analogy to your argument regarding St. Paul and homosexuality.
This “love the sinner but hate the sin” talk, usually based on certain Scripture passages that are used to clobber people in a supposedly loving way, is something that LGBT people are all too familiar with. In fact, certain Bible passages purportedly about homosexuality are often called the “clobber passages” by gay people. I’m reminded of something said by Nadia Bolz-Weber who was raised in the very conservative Churches of Christ before finding her way as an adult to the ELCA where she went to seminary, was ordained and is the founding pastor of the House for All Sinners and Saints in Denver, Colorado. She says something in her book Pastrix: The Cranky Beautiful Faith of a Sinner and Saint (Jericho Books, 2013) about how the Bible is often brandished as a weapon by people who claim that they are acting out of love:
The Bible had been the weapon of choice in the spiritual gladiatorial arena of my youth. I knew how, wielded with intent and precision, the Bible can cut deeply, while the one holding it can claim with impunity that “this is from God.” Apparently if God wrote the Bible (a preposterous idea), then any verse used to exclude, shame, harm, or injure is not only done in the name of God, but also out of love and concern for the other person. I had been that person on several occasions, lying spiritually bleeding on the ground, while the nice, well-meaning and concerned Christians stood above me and smiled in condescension, so pleased with themselves that they had “spoken the truth in love.”
 
Apparently if God wrote the Bible (a preposterous idea),
Logically, Lutheranism defines itself with sola Scriptura, so if she is denying this, what’s the point with arguing with her? She’s just picking and choosing what she likes in Christian belief, and rejecting what she doesn’t. You can’t argue with such thinking, because it accepts logical contradictions.

The reason God couldn’t have written Scripture, in her eyes, is because she didn’t write it.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
lying spiritually bleeding on the ground, while the nice, well-meaning and concerned Christians stood above me and smiled in condescension, so pleased with themselves that they had “spoken the truth in love.”
Does she mean that the Christians weren’t really well-meaning and concerned, and is being sarcastic? If they are so pleased with themselves, they don’t seem to be well-meaning and concerned.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
Logically, Lutheranism defines itself with sola Scriptura, so if she is denying this, what’s the point with arguing with her? She’s just picking and choosing what she likes in Christian belief, and rejecting what she doesn’t. You can’t argue with such thinking, because it accepts logical contradictions.

The reason God couldn’t have written Scripture, in her eyes, is because she didn’t write it.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
In May, I began reading the whole Bible starting with Genesis and have come across so many contradictory and sometimes cruel passages that I seriously doubt that they could have been written by God. Just to give an example from Numbers 15:32-36:
32 When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp.” 36 The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.
I just have a really difficult time believing that a loving God who sent His son to die for us on the cross would command that someone be stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. I don’t believe in this passage any more than I believe in the one from Leviticus that commands that someone be put to death for homosexuality.

Or what is the name of Moses’ father-in-law:
Exodus 2:16-21: The priest of Midian had seven daughters. They came to draw water, and filled the troughs to water their father’s flock. 17 But some shepherds came and drove them away. Moses got up and came to their defense and watered their flock. 18 When they returned to their father Reuel, he said, “How is it that you have come back so soon today?” 19 They said, “An Egyptian helped us against the shepherds; he even drew water for us and watered the flock.” 20 He said to his daughters, “Where is he? Why did you leave the man? Invite him to break bread.” 21 Moses agreed to stay with the man, and he gave Moses his daughter Zipporah in marriage.
Exodus 18:1: Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses’ father-in-law, heard of all that God had done for Moses and for his people Israel, how the Lord had brought Israel out of Egypt.
Judges 4:11: Now Heber the Kenite had separated from the other Kenites, that is, the descendants of Hobab the father-in-law of Moses, and had encamped as far away as Elon-bezaanannim, which is near Kedesh.
If God wrote these passages, He seemed to have had a hard time remembering whether the name of Moses’ father-in-law was Reuel, Jethro or Hobab.

The Bible, in my opinion and no doubt that of many others like Nadia Bolz-Weber, certainly has some of God’s words in in, but it is not in its entirety the verbatim word of God and it is not God. Anything in it from God has been filtered through the minds of human authors and does have errors in it as well as being mixed at times with the personal opinions of the individual authors of its various books. Also, Jesus says in Mark 12:29-31: ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself are always more important and more central to Jesus’ message than clobbering people with a few scattered and questionable passages that might have something to say about homosexuality.
 
Right. It only recognizes that evil exists. The purpose of the Catholic Church is to solve the problem of evil…and homosexuality
And you wonder why you have lost the debate? Maybe while you are having a shave tomorrow morning you could look at yourself in the mirror and ask the same question.

I used to encourage people like you to keep it up…keep those posts coming…keep up the rhetoric. It certainly helped people make up their minds about the matter. But now? Now it doesn’t matter any more.

Maybe you could direct your attention to paedophilia. I’ll be there on your side. Let’s face it, you need all the help you can get.
 
Some obvious changes that we must deal with will be:

Mr & Mr Jones or Mrs & Mrs Smith. :confused:
Pat and Bob…a married (gay) couple or Bob and Pat a married (straight) couple.:confused:
[sarcasmOn]Gosh, I hadn’t realised it was going to be such a major change to our way of life![/sarcasmOff]
 
And those practicing contraception are…?
The same. So What? It is sin that makes us the enemy of God, but since you don’t believe there is a God, it’s kind of pointless to discuss this with you.
 
The same. So What? It is sin that makes us the enemy of God, but since you don’t believe there is a God, it’s kind of pointless to discuss this with you.
Your priorities are here in this forum for all to see. Multiple posts on homosexuality, which affects such a small proportion of the population. And on contraception, which affects almost everyone, including almost all Catholics? How many?

Is it your call which is the greater evil?

But there’s not requirement to respond. Kinda pointless. Unless you’d like to clarify…
 
Several Catholic organizations in the US seem to be uncomfortably and awkwardly preoccupied with gay issues. Catholic Answers Live, a radio show I love, sometimes has specific shows dedicated to same-sex marriage or homosexuality. I just switched on EWTN on my TV and the show was talking about the “militant homosexual agenda.” Catholic bloggers and articles are always dedicating topics on this issue; everytime I go to NewAdvent.org, there is a good chance I’ll see a highlighted article casting the issue in a severe light.

My question is, what is this emphasis on this issue meant to achieve? Is it supposed to help those gay persons who are already struggling to find a place in the Church? Is it supposed to convince the “militant homosexual” activists? Is it supposed to reach out to those in the Church and the world who disagree with church teaching and accept homosexual relationships? Or is it supposed to comfort those who already agree with church teaching?

Maybe I am just sensitive. But I do not see the point with this over-emphasis. I could see how such a preoccupation would turn away those from the Church, as it is making me really disappointed with the USA church’s outreach to those on the fringes.
Did you notice that the society is so focussed on the issue it was recently before the Supreme Court? The White House was the subject of a light display over the subject. The law in every State is influenced by the issue. The meaning of “family” and parenting is being revised. [Hard to believe it attracts any interest at all really. :rolleyes:]. Meanwhile, on other threads, we read person after person bemoaning the absence of Church commentary, so I suggest “obsession” is in the eye of the beholder.

The Church can proclaim truth, be silent, or abandon the truth.
 
And those practicing contraception are…?
The evil of contraception is actually more obvious than you realize. Since God is the Creator (which is probably the only part of the definition of God that all religions, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Tradidion Native Peoples, etc. can agree on), and He creates through His creatures (procreation), when His creatures deny procreation, they are directly denying Him.

All mere sexual sin is caused by a rejection of either procreation in itself, or its effects.

And interestingly enough, here’s an article written by a very virtuous non-Christian (sort of) person denouncing birth control: salon.com/2013/02/18/mahatma_gandhi_birth_control_is_criminal/

Remember, we Christians don’t deny that non-Christians can be prophecise 🙂

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
Several Catholic organizations in the US seem to be uncomfortably and awkwardly preoccupied with gay issues. Catholic Answers Live, a radio show I love, sometimes has specific shows dedicated to same-sex marriage or homosexuality. I just switched on EWTN on my TV and the show was talking about the “militant homosexual agenda.” Catholic bloggers and articles are always dedicating topics on this issue; everytime I go to NewAdvent.org, there is a good chance I’ll see a highlighted article casting the issue in a severe light.

My question is, what is this emphasis on this issue meant to achieve? Is it supposed to help those gay persons who are already struggling to find a place in the Church? Is it supposed to convince the “militant homosexual” activists? Is it supposed to reach out to those in the Church and the world who disagree with church teaching and accept homosexual relationships? Or is it supposed to comfort those who already agree with church teaching?

Maybe I am just sensitive. But I do not see the point with this over-emphasis. I could see how such a preoccupation would turn away those from the Church, as it is making me really disappointed with the USA church’s outreach to those on the fringes.
Consider the thinking of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas from the Summa Theologica on the sins of unnatural vice.Summa Theologica II-II, 154, 12 Whether the unnatural vice is the greatest sin among the species of lust?

Objection 1.
It would seem that the unnatural vice is not the greatest sin among the species of lust. For the more a sin is contrary to charity the graver it is. Now adultery, seduction and rape which are injurious to our neighbor are seemingly more contrary to the love of our neighbor, than unnatural sins, by which no other person is injured. Therefore the unnatural sin is not the greatest among the species of lust.

On the contrary, Augustine says (De adult. conjug. [The quotation is from Cap. Adulterii xxxii, qu. 7. Cf. Augustine, De Bono Conjugali, viii.]) that “of all these,” namely the sins belonging to lust, “that which is against nature is the worst.”

I answer that, In every genus, worst of all is the corruption of the principle on which the rest depend. Now the principles of reason are those things that are according to nature, because reason presupposes things as determined by nature, before disposing of other things according as it is fitting. This may be observed both in speculative and in practical matters. Wherefore just as in speculative matters the most grievous and shameful error is that which is about things the knowledge of which is naturally bestowed on man, so in matters of action it is most grave and shameful to act against things as determined by nature. Therefore, since by the unnatural vices man transgresses that which has been determined by nature with regard to the use of venereal actions, it follows that in this matter this sin is gravest of all. After it comes incest, which, as stated above (09), is contrary to the natural respect which we owe persons related to us.

With regard to the other species of lust they imply a transgression merely of that which is determined by right reason, on the presupposition, however, of natural principles. Now it is more against reason to make use of the venereal act not only with prejudice to the future offspring, but also so as to injure another person besides. Wherefore simple fornication, which is committed without injustice to another person, is the least grave among the species of lust. Then, it is a greater injustice to have intercourse with a woman who is subject to another’s authority as regards the act of generation, than as regards merely her guardianship. Wherefore adultery is more grievous than seduction. And both of these are aggravated by the use of violence. Hence rape of a virgin is graver than seduction, and rape of a wife than adultery. And all these are aggravated by coming under the head of sacrilege, as stated above (10, ad 2).

**Reply to Objection 1. **Just as the ordering of right reason proceeds from man, so the order of nature is from God Himself: wherefore in sins contrary to nature, whereby the very order of nature is violated, an injury is done to God, the Author of nature. Hence Augustine says (Confess. iii, 8): “Those foul offenses that are against nature should be everywhere and at all times detested and punished, such as were those of the people of Sodom, which should all nations commit, they should all stand guilty of the same crime, by the law of God which hath not so made men that they should so abuse one another. For even that very intercourse which should be between God and us is violated, when that same nature, of which He is the Author, is polluted by the perversity of lust.”
 
Your priorities are here in this forum for all to see. Multiple posts on homosexuality, which affects such a small proportion of the population. And on contraception, which affects almost everyone, including almost all Catholics? How many?

Is it your call which is the greater evil?

But there’s not requirement to respond. Kinda pointless. Unless you’d like to clarify…
Why are you so obsessed with contraception ?
 
I

Loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself are always more important and more central to Jesus’ message than clobbering people with a few scattered and questionable passages that might have something to say about homosexuality.
Since you have determined that scripture is unreliable how do we even know what Jesus message was?
 
I first came to CAF just after last year’s meeting of the Synod on the Family in which one of the questions asked was:

Quote:
Homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community. Are we capable of welcoming these people, guaranteeing to them a fraternal space in our communities? Often they wish to encounter a church that offers them a welcoming home. Are our communities capable of providing that, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony?"

It also mentioned that same-sex couples can exemplify “mutual aid to the point of sacrifice (that) constitutes a precious support in the life of the partners.”

This seemed like a very hopeful sign to me that the Catholic church was going to try to reach out to LGBT people. But soon afterwards, there were articles like this one at CNN with the title, “Under conservative assault, Vatican backtracks on gay comments.”

cnn.com/2014/10/14/world/vatican-backtrack-gays/

As noted in an article in The Guardian about the final report from the Synod:

theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/18/catholic-bishops-backtrack-on-gay-welcome

This was all rather disappointing to me. 😦
Does a person attracted to sexual acts with a person of the same sex have good qualities that persons attracted to the opposite sex do not have? I would have thought ALL people have good qualities, and the point is not to wrongly conclude that homosexual persons are deprived of these. The Church welcomes all sinners who desire reconciliation. I am not surprised that the language initially used was not repeated.
 
A slap in the face to the God who made some of his creatures with an orientation or “inclination” or “condition,” or whatever Churchly-correct term one wishes to use, to the same sex.
So any and all orientations - unchosen desires that are just “there” - are ordained by God and are good? Is that your assertion? What then do we understand by a fallen world?
 
This does not follow because murder is murder. But not all homosexual acts are the same. It is our modern church notion of natural moral law that we have layered on to Paul’s words to conclude he means all gay sex is wrong. But not all gay sex is the same.
Is this why you support SSM? To avoid pre-marital gay sex, which presumably you agree is wrong?
 
Maybe I am just sensitive. But I do not see the point with this over-emphasis. I could see how such a preoccupation would turn away those from the Church, as it is making me really disappointed with the USA church’s outreach to those on the fringes.
Every church needs an “other”, an enemy to struggle against, a boogeyman to inspire revulsion. For much of the twentieth century, the enemy to the US Catholic Church was world Communism. With the demise of world Communism as a legitimate menace, the church was forced to find a new threat to fit the bill.

Thus, the animus against homosexuals. And, like Communism, the vitriol dedicated to homosexuals was way out of proportion to their actual numbers and political import.
 
Several Catholic organizations in the US seem to be uncomfortably and awkwardly preoccupied with gay issues. Catholic Answers Live, a radio show I love, sometimes has specific shows dedicated to same-sex marriage or homosexuality. I just switched on EWTN on my TV and the show was talking about the “militant homosexual agenda.” Catholic bloggers and articles are always dedicating topics on this issue; everytime I go to NewAdvent.org, there is a good chance I’ll see a highlighted article casting the issue in a severe light.

My question is, what is this emphasis on this issue meant to achieve? Is it supposed to help those gay persons who are already struggling to find a place in the Church? Is it supposed to convince the “militant homosexual” activists? Is it supposed to reach out to those in the Church and the world who disagree with church teaching and accept homosexual relationships? Or is it supposed to comfort those who already agree with church teaching?

Maybe I am just sensitive. But I do not see the point with this over-emphasis. I could see how such a preoccupation would turn away those from the Church, as it is making me really disappointed with the USA church’s outreach to those on the fringes.
Well, youre not seeing the whole picture. Society has been obsessed with homosexuality and its legalizstion for some years now. These speakers that you see dedicating episodes on homosexuality are just reacting to the environment.
 
Your priorities are here in this forum for all to see. Multiple posts on homosexuality, which affects such a small proportion of the population. And on contraception, which affects almost everyone, including almost all Catholics? How many?

Is it your call which is the greater evil?

But there’s not requirement to respond. Kinda pointless. Unless you’d like to clarify…
My guess is that contraception is a private sin, so the danger of scandalilzing people is less. Wheres as with gay marriage, it is public sin which sets bad examples to the youth and other members of society according to Catholicism, so it is a more urgent issue to address. Too late now though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top