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Byzantine_Wolf
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Well I use “some” in a rather general, nonspecific way…Some? I must have missed the plural.
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DavidMark
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I see it as my duty to warn people not to remain unreconciled to this Reconciler, or disunified with this Unifier. No one else but Baha’u’llah can heal these rifts. That is His purpose. Sorry you feel confused. I was confused, when I was a Christian, before i found Baha’i, about the stories of Jesus doing His ultimate miracles after the crucifixion, when He had always told the recipients of His healing not to tell anyone.I don’t understand why some people continually think the topic of this thread is “What do the Bahai say about the Crucifixion of Christ”
Mark 7:36 And he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published it
Mark 8:30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
But, after the Resurrection, they were to tell everyone everything!
Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
And after a short time, no one living remembered seeing any of it. What motivated them then? The Spirit. God now wants to see who remembers the same Spirit.
So, Muslims and Baha’is are a part of this dialogue, and the same old formulas will not suffice…
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planten
Guest
David, please tell when that happened?? I am asking you again and again in plain words. But you are avoiding any reply. I know you believe in Crucifixion. But you do not believe in resurrestion. I want to know, if Jesus soul had returned immediately to God after his death on the cross, then who was that person who walked 70 miles to Galilee?? Was it not Lord Jesus himself who went to meet his disciples there??
If his soul had gone up, then how did his body move?? Did he have another soul?? Please reply.
Also about your belief in Bahaullah, I do not mind. Bahaullah told you that intermediate (Wast) means in time only. You believed him. But the Muslim world does not believe that at all. There are many other clean hearted (Mutahhiroon) people who understand Quran very well.
I told you that you that the Muslims as a nation are told to be the middle of the way people in matters of conflicting beliefs. That is in matters of:
- Individualism versus collectivism (Communism)
- Materialism versus spiritualism.
- Goodness of this world versus the goodness of next world.
- Free will versus Taqdeer (Destiny)
Now please solve the matter of Lord Jesus. Was he alive after crucifixion and able to walk 70 miles to Galilee?? That would need your belief in resurrection.
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Byzantine_Wolf
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Hey that’s cool. So do it in the appropriate thread.
By the by, you’ve just admitted to proselytizing. Good work
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Nine_Two
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Planten vs. David Mark! This’ll be more exciting than the Congress of Berlin!
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EagleWatch
Guest
Eagle Watch asked: Then where is Jesus’ Body?
**Maybe buried in Jerusalem somewhere. Why do you think the Jewish archeologists are tearing up the Old City? If it was so important Bahá ‘u’ lláh **would have said where it was, but, “the flesh profiteth nothing.” “Blessed are those who believe and have not seen.”
Eagle Watch asked: May be you don’t even know Jesus Christ has appeared not only to the early disciples but to many through all these milleneums in person and confirming the Gospel the Bible speaks is correct. So he is a real experience to us Christians not a myth.
**Of course, He is a real experience and a living Presence. I have dreamed of Him myself, thank God, and hope to be with Him forever, and my father was so moved by a dream of Him, after visiting the Holy Land, it changed his life. **!
Maybe buried in Jerusalem somewhere. Why do you think the Jewish archeologists are tearing up the Old City? If it was so important Bahá ‘u’ lláh would have said where it was, but, “the flesh profiteth nothing.” “Blessed are those who believe and have not seen.”
That was not sufficient answer brother. When you or your Baha ‘u’ lla want to tell the truth correcting what is already established and believed undisputedly over the centuries better give us the details to prove your/his point with the support of evidence. Not give us just anyone’s view on the topic vaguely explained under the pretext of new revelation from God.Jesus gave that evidence to St. Thomas when he doubted the resurrection of Jesus. Jesus asked him to touch and feel him after appearing to him. So Jesus established the fact beyond doubt that he was not appearing as ghost but was having crucified resurrected Body. Not only that, Jesus was present with many of the disciples for 40 days confirming all about scriptural references in the past and establishing the Gospel to be preached to the end of the world.
Here are the witnesses
1 Corinthians: 15
- 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
- By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
- For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
- And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
- And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
- After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
- After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
- And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
- For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
There is a great number of witnesses to the fact that Jesus was crucified and was dead, then resurrected in His crucified body and ascended to heaven in front of multitude of witness.
Acts:1
9 And when he (Jesus) had spoken these things, while they beheld, he (Jesus) was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Scripture is very clear how the second coming of Jesus will be. Not in the form of Baha ‘u’ llah or any other false teachers.
Warning from New Testament
2 Thessalonians: 2
10. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
11. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
12. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
13. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
14. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
15. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
16. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
17. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
18. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
19. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
20. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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EagleWatch
Guest
It Satan’s ploy to device many teachings and religions and different revelations other than Gospel to confuse and get many in them and take away from true salvation of God through Jesus Christ. He keep bringing out many of such because he is not sure which method would succeed as he is not God to know the sure way. So open your eyes to find the deceit you are deep in.
From God there is only one Gospel and one savation - that is through Jesus Christ. He is sure of what is he doing. Every thing fulfilled according to the Holy Scriptures.
God Bless
From God there is only one Gospel and one savation - that is through Jesus Christ. He is sure of what is he doing. Every thing fulfilled according to the Holy Scriptures.
God Bless
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EagleWatch
Guest
Eagle Watch asked: May be you don’t even know Jesus Christ has appeared not only to the early disciples but to many through all these milleneums in person and confirming the Gospel the Bible speaks is correct. So he is a real experience to us Christians not a myth.
**Of course, He is a real experience and a living Presence. I have dreamed of Him myself, thank God, and hope to be with Him forever, and my father was so moved by a dream of Him, after visiting the Holy Land, it changed his life. **
!
Anyone can dream of any person. No one can dispute it. But real physical presence witnessed by many is what I am talking about. Do a small research on this you will find many. Start with Sadhu Sunder Singh of India.
God bless
**Of course, He is a real experience and a living Presence. I have dreamed of Him myself, thank God, and hope to be with Him forever, and my father was so moved by a dream of Him, after visiting the Holy Land, it changed his life. **
!
Anyone can dream of any person. No one can dispute it. But real physical presence witnessed by many is what I am talking about. Do a small research on this you will find many. Start with Sadhu Sunder Singh of India.
God bless
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DavidMark
Guest
**The body is composed, in truth, of corporeal elements and every composition is necessarily subject to decomposition; but the spirit is an essence, simple, pure, spiritual, eternal, perpetual and divine. He who seeketh Christ from the point of view of His body hath, in truth, debased Him and hath gone astray from Him; but he who seeketh Christ from the point of view of His Spirit will grow from day to day in joy, attraction, zeal, proximity, perception and vision. **(Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 389)If his soul had gone up, then how did his body move?? Did he have another soul?? Please reply.
If you go back and read, I said they recorded their subjective visions. I don’t believe in a physical resurrection, so I am not concerned how long it took for His spirit to ascend to a heaven He was already in.
WE do not try to deny or reduce the respect of Bahaullah at all.
This is a false statement. You have made a bad post. You have said something without my approval. (Just talking like you
Now please solve the matter of Lord Jesus. Was he alive after crucifixion and able to walk 70 miles to Galilee?? That would need your belief in resurrection.
**What is important to us is that He was always ALIVE, and walked with them in their hearts. It is irrelevent to me now, if it was physical. **
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planten
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Okay DavidMark, forget Bahaullah. Tell me, did Jesus go out of the tomb and walked to Galilee and met his friends in body and spirit? Church says Jesus died on the Cross and was laid in a tomb. He came to life within a day or two and walked out of the tomb alive. That is called resurrection. That is the church belief.
But you say that Jesus died on the cross. That was the end of him. His soul went up to God. So Jesus could never go to Galilee according to you. And if it was Jesus himself who went to Galilee then you must believe that he did not die.
On the one hand you (Baha’is) believe that Jesus died on the cross. You (baha’is) do not believe in resurrection. Therefore, it follows that Jesus never met his disciples in Galilee and did not eat anything from them.
Why do you not clarify the belief of the Baha’is faith about those few days of the Crucifixion ?and the following few days???
I ask you David, “Did Jesus go to Galilee after Crucifixion or not?” If he did then how did he do that without resurrection??
But you say that Jesus died on the cross. That was the end of him. His soul went up to God. So Jesus could never go to Galilee according to you. And if it was Jesus himself who went to Galilee then you must believe that he did not die.
On the one hand you (Baha’is) believe that Jesus died on the cross. You (baha’is) do not believe in resurrection. Therefore, it follows that Jesus never met his disciples in Galilee and did not eat anything from them.
Why do you not clarify the belief of the Baha’is faith about those few days of the Crucifixion ?and the following few days???
I ask you David, “Did Jesus go to Galilee after Crucifixion or not?” If he did then how did he do that without resurrection??
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mangy_dog
Guest
Bahu-blah-blah… Jewish archeologist aren’t looking for Jesus’ body, they’re probably looking for the Ark of the Covenant or some other important artifact.Eagle Watch asked: Then where is Jesus’ Body?
**Maybe buried in Jerusalem somewhere. Why do you think the Jewish archeologists are tearing up the Old City? If it was so important Bahá ‘u’ lláh **would have said where it was, but, “the flesh profiteth nothing.” “Blessed are those who believe and have not seen.”
Eagle Watch asked: May be you don’t even know Jesus Christ has appeared not only to the early disciples but to many through all these milleneums in person and confirming the Gospel the Bible speaks is correct. So he is a real experience to us Christians not a myth.
**Of course, He is a real experience and a living Presence. I have dreamed of Him myself, thank God, and hope to be with Him forever, and my father was so moved by a dream of Him, after visiting the Holy Land, it changed his life. **
Friend Planten said: Ummat Wusta is not an intermediate nation in time. It is an even based middle way nation in the matters of beliefs. It is not inclined to one side, to one extreme.
Your interpretation of that verse in Qur’an 2:143 is typical of the Arab Muslim “street,” which is not firmly grounded in divine interpretation. There are extremists such as the world has never seen!
You should remember another verse. “None knoweth the interpretation thereof except God and they that are firmly grounded in knowledge.” [3:7]
Who is better grounded in knowledge than the Ruler of the Day of Reckoning?
I believe that is Baha’u’llah, and He says it is a community “intermediate” between two others. The way He says it is wonderful to me:
If Prophethood has been sealed with Him, how is the Prophet’s nation said to be intermediate amongst the nations? In this wise ascertain the limit of their cognizance…” ~Bahá’u’lláh, (Surih of Patience, provisional translation)
i personally have thought the soul of Jesus immediately returned to God at death, like everyone else. But the Spirit of His Faith is still working in the world. This began three days after the crucifixion, when the Christians became excited and woke up. The Body of the Church began teaching boldly… i hope this answers your question:
'Abdu’l-Baha said: Observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” (John 3:13) while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom.
And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact.
In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical;
it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension. ( Some Answered Questions, p. 103)
Therefore this Baha’is understanding is that early subjective spiritual visions of His presence were recorded, because their impact on the hearts was no less real, or even more real than the world of mammon. Even if His body was seen and physically felt, it doesn’t help my spirit. His love and teachings do. If this is a bad lecture, sue me!
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
I think we’ve gotten off-topic. Let’s try to return to the OP’s subject.
I’d like to bring back up what I’ve argued twice before, and which I feel hasn’t really been addressed (planten attempted to, but his argument essentially amounted to “I disagree” and then changing the subject). The Koran argues that there is “no certain knowledge” and only “conjecture” among Christians regarding the crucifixion and what happened afterward…and yet, the majority of orthodox Christian denominations and churches (note the use of the little “o” ) agree wholeheartedly on what happened at the crucifixion: namely, Christ suffered, died, was buried, and rose again.
Regarding the crucifixion itself, all four gospels agree conclusively on several important facts:
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. [S. 4:157; Yusuf Ali]
Amazingly enough, while a Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox can look at the passages I’ve cited and agree on what they mean, we cannot find that in Islam. The majority of Muslims at large, and especially Muslim apologists, cannot even agree on what S. 4:157 means. Some of the most interesting and popular theories include:
I’d like to bring back up what I’ve argued twice before, and which I feel hasn’t really been addressed (planten attempted to, but his argument essentially amounted to “I disagree” and then changing the subject). The Koran argues that there is “no certain knowledge” and only “conjecture” among Christians regarding the crucifixion and what happened afterward…and yet, the majority of orthodox Christian denominations and churches (note the use of the little “o”
) agree wholeheartedly on what happened at the crucifixion: namely, Christ suffered, died, was buried, and rose again.Regarding the crucifixion itself, all four gospels agree conclusively on several important facts:
- Christ was crucified on Golgotha, also known as Calvary [Matt 27:33; Mark 15:22; Luke 23:33; John 19:17]
- A sign was placed over Christ’s head [Matt 27:37; Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; John 19:19]
- Jesus was crucified between two thieves [Matt 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18]
- The garment Christ wore was divided and gambled over [Matt 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23-24]
- ** Jesus died on the cross** [Matt 27:50; Mark 15:37; Luke 23:46; John 19:30]
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. [S. 4:157; Yusuf Ali]
Amazingly enough, while a Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox can look at the passages I’ve cited and agree on what they mean, we cannot find that in Islam. The majority of Muslims at large, and especially Muslim apologists, cannot even agree on what S. 4:157 means. Some of the most interesting and popular theories include:
- Some believe that God made Judas appear as Christ, and he was crucified instead (an Iranian movie was recently released, in response to Mel Gibson’s Passion, that showed this, and those who support the Gospel of Barnabas also uphold this idea).
- Some believe that one of the disciples volunteered to be made to look like Jesus, and therefore be martyred (Baidawi wrote on this to some degree).
- Some take a more Docetic approach to the literal meaning of the passage and say that the pain, suffering and agony on the crucifixion was simply a big illusion (Yusuf Ali writes on this in his exegesis of the Koran).
- Most popular among Muslims is “the swoon theory,” which says Jesus feinted on the cross, recovered from his wounds, and later woke up (popular Muslim apologist Ahmed Deedat argued this, as does Shabir Ally).
- Some Muslim apologists, recognizing the wealth of theories within Islam regarding the crucifixion, basically summarize that there’s no way to know and we just shouldn’t care.
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jakasaki
Guest
In a nut shell, well said B.Wolf!I think we’ve gotten off-topic. Let’s try to return to the OP’s subject.
I’d like to bring back up what I’ve argued twice before, and which I feel hasn’t really been addressed (planten attempted to, but his argument essentially amounted to “I disagree” and then changing the subject). The Koran argues that there is “no certain knowledge” and only “conjecture” among Christians regarding the crucifixion and what happened afterward…and yet, the majority of orthodox Christian denominations and churches (note the use of the little “o”
Regarding the crucifixion itself, all four gospels agree conclusively on several important facts:
Muslims, on the other hand, have S. 4:157 in their Koran to deal with:
- Christ was crucified on Golgotha, also known as Calvary [Matt 27:33; Mark 15:22; Luke 23:33; John 19:17]
- A sign was placed over Christ’s head [Matt 27:37; Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; John 19:19]
- Jesus was crucified between two thieves [Matt 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18]
- The garment Christ wore was divided and gambled over [Matt 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23-24]
- ** Jesus died on the cross** [Matt 27:50; Mark 15:37; Luke 23:46; John 19:30]
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. [S. 4:157; Yusuf Ali]
Amazingly enough, while a Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox can look at the passages I’ve cited and agree on what they mean, we cannot find that in Islam. The majority of Muslims at large, and especially Muslim apologists, cannot even agree on what S. 4:157 means. Some of the most interesting and popular theories include:
Therefore it is quite ironic that it is Christians who are accused of having “no certain knowledge” and “conjecture” when the only side that seems to suffer from this is the side of Islam. Again, we Christians must ask - given this information on the certainty of the cross in Christianity compared to the blanket denial in Islam - why do Muslims deny the crucifixion of Christ?
- Some believe that God made Judas appear as Christ, and he was crucified instead (an Iranian movie was recently released, in response to Mel Gibson’s Passion, that showed this, and those who support the Gospel of Barnabas also uphold this idea).
- Some believe that one of the disciples volunteered to be made to look like Jesus, and therefore be martyred (Baidawi wrote on this to some degree).
- Some take a more Docetic approach to the literal meaning of the passage and say that the pain, suffering and agony on the crucifixion was simply a big illusion (Yusuf Ali writes on this in his exegesis of the Koran).
- Most popular among Muslims is “the swoon theory,” which says Jesus feinted on the cross, recovered from his wounds, and later woke up (popular Muslim apologist Ahmed Deedat argued this, as does Shabir Ally).
- Some Muslim apologists, recognizing the wealth of theories within Islam regarding the crucifixion, basically summarize that there’s no way to know and we just shouldn’t care.
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DavidMark
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planten
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DavidMark
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jakasaki
Guest
The above is nonsense.
Whatever you posted above is **NOT **what “muslims believe” because it’s nowhere in the koran, nor it’s in the hadiths. You are telling a Bible story and adding the words “muslims believe” to it.
Since when do muslims believe in the Bible?
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KathleenGee
Guest
I thought I had cancelled this thread and it came back!!!
Muslims don’t read Gospels. They won’t read your Gospel references.
Plantens, all of you! – take a chance and get hold of a Catholic Bible, get into a cozy corner, and start praying to Allah to guide you into the Gospels and their true meaning…He will not hurt you because He does not hurt us when we read the Gospels.
Come back and then we can discuss.
Muslims don’t read Gospels. They won’t read your Gospel references.
Plantens, all of you! – take a chance and get hold of a Catholic Bible, get into a cozy corner, and start praying to Allah to guide you into the Gospels and their true meaning…He will not hurt you because He does not hurt us when we read the Gospels.
Come back and then we can discuss.
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DavidMark
Guest
Yes, wouldn’t it be great if millions of Muslims started asking their Arab Christian neighbors for Bibles to read? What could it hurt? That’s what Baha’u’llah said they should do!
Also, planten, are these your beliefs, because it doesn’t look like a pan-islamic thing. Maybe it was a time-bomb Muhammad put into Islam that would cause a scattering effect of opinions when the time was ripe!
Also, planten, are these your beliefs, because it doesn’t look like a pan-islamic thing. Maybe it was a time-bomb Muhammad put into Islam that would cause a scattering effect of opinions when the time was ripe!
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planten
Guest
Since time immemorial. jakasaki, we Muslims believe in bibleNT, in all the revealed boks of Allah and we believe in all the messengers of Allah. Jesus was one of them. He said he was sent. Please read it in the gospel.
You are right. We believe that Jesus was seen alive three days after Crucifixion. How he was alive is a disputed matter. But we Muslims fully believe that Jesus was alive, walked to Amause (some village), met two travellors on that voyage. He went to Galilee and met his disciples. We believe all that even though it is not so described in the Quran.
But Baha’is do not believe that. I am trying to understand their point of view. I understand the Jewish point of view about Crucifixion. I understand the christian point of view. I understand the mass muslim (wrong) point of view. Al Hamdu Lillah.
Now I was trying to understand the Baha’i point of view and I have understood that they (even though they believe that Jesus died on the cross), their view about resurrection is highly faulty. They do not believe in resurrection the way the christians believe. That was the purpose and I have got it out of the Baha’is. They keep on talking about things in a round about way, never coming straight to the point. So it wastes lot of time.
I will in my next post explain what I have understood from the Baha’i faith about resurrection. Thanks, Do not mind please.
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