Why isn't guaranteed maternity leave a "pro-life" imperative?

[mVitus]

Absolutely not. The only thing that’s essential to the pro-life position is to understand that each and every person has inherent dignity, from conception to natural death. Don’t imply conditions, that negates the inherent part.

Working to get paid maternity leave is especting inherent dignity. It’s part of the difference between pro-life and pro-birth.

 

[jlhargus]

So you prefer they kill the baby and throw it in the trash.

 

[Vonsalza]

Theo520:

Vonsalza:

I want to go back to 1889 where an American “base” near your nation was a rarity rather than a granted (I understand the word “base” has become very loaded and is thus avoided).

And will you equally turn your back on refugees, from conflicts we didn’t help prevent?

He’s also probably not aware of our economic impact in many places.

The mayor of Landshtul, Germany actually testified before Congress of what would happen if we moved the current medical facility from his town.

The new one is planned to stay there, and not move.

I’m hijacking. :woman_facepalming:t3:

Let’s do this.

Would I turn my back on refugees? Probably not, but I see absolutely no reason why helping refuges = constructing yet-another overseas military installation. I also find such a view especially odd coming from a man who is otherwise so critical of government assistance as a domestic issue. Moreover, I’m sure you’d have no problem if the Russians built a base on Cuba and deployed into New Orleans to provide boots-on-ground “refugee assistance” to the displaced denizens of Katrina.

Suffering is not an excuse for imperialism. If so - hell - there’s a hundred other places we should all put up bases. And why just Americans? We could use a Chinese base in Honduras to help solve the issues there that fuel a lot of our immigration issues, right?

Moreover, I’d argue that most refugee crises of the last century can be largely laid at the feet of western powers not staying in the west (lookin’ at you, Brits).

And I’m very well aware of the economic dependence of many folks on our military presence. We get a good estimate of it just by looking at what we’re spending on the installation. So let the Germans solve German problems.

 

[KJW5551]

Did she say that only people in a certain social strata/income bracket should have kids?

Stop. Putting. Words. In. People’s. Mouths.

Just stop.

 

[Monica83]

Well, I would rather not have words put in my mouth.
I’m talking about family planning. We all have to do it regardless of income.

 

[Escabrosa]

Should that be the reason? Is that the determining moral factor between life and death, being able to afford it? That is the wrong approach.

It treats adults like children and ignores their moral agency, their free will. The reason for not killing your baby in the womb is because it’s a spark of the divine, not because you decided you can afford it. That should not be part of the argument.

 

[mVitus]

This isn’t either or. It’s and. Pro-life isn’t get the baby born OR help the mother. It’s ‘and.’

 

[TheLittleLady]

Have to? Again, that is a term with meaning. People may choose to welcome children without a plan. That is not wrong.

 

[KathleenT]

It could be irresponsible. Being a parent is about providing for the child’s material needs as well as their emotional and developmental ones.

That’s part of the reason people are encourage prior to marriage to consider their resources and make sure they a open to the responsibility of children.

Before you get annoyed with me, my parents had five kids on a very small salary. I did without a lot of things my friends had and we had to work a bit to make our money go further. But children really aren’t as expensive as people make them out to be.

If you are going to partake in the baby-making act you should be prepared for the baby. That’s being an adult.

 

[gcshapero]

The term “pro-life” has been stretched pretty thin by those who support certain things. Those things in themselves aren’t bad, but it does reduce the term to something less than what it is.

Working to help the mother with maternity leave is a very important duty and and a noble one, and it is part of the corporal works of mercy.

However, consider St. John Paul II’s words;

"Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights – for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture—is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.”

I’m not prepared to call this a pro-life issue. A good responsibility to take an one we should be doing, but it’s not quite the same.

When it comes to legislation, Catholics are obligated to side with law that works in favor of protecting life; ie voting against abortion, etc. However, Catholics aren’t obligated to vote for legislation that demands all businesses set up a specific amount of time for maternity leave. However, it is still important to also work toward different means to assist these parents.

To acknowledge the term “pro-life” meaning support of the life itself and the dignity of it by working against killing of life, from womb to tomb, doesn’t make you merely pro-birth – this is a term used to defeat any argument that divides up scenarios. “If you do not support the decriminalization of all drugs, then you are just pro-birth because you don’t care about families staying together.”

There has to be a difference, and it’s not a litmus test. Those that see the value of all matters, even prudential subjects, aren’t now by default demeaning or making light of abortion. And likewise, those who distinguish the hierarchy of direct killing of life vs. subjects that are difficult on others like joblessness are now not by default simply “pro-birth.” We need to be more honest when we dissect these things.

That said, if someone supports something like legislation making maternity leave more accessible while turning away from opposing abortion or euthanasia, this is badly prioritized. This is why St. John Paul II made that statement above – the fundamental right to life cannot be undermined, even if the rationale is to protect other good things. One is more basic and important than the other.

 

[HolySpirit]

Common knowledge does not require a citation.

 

[Theo520]

Would I turn my back on refugees? Probably not, but I see absolutely no reason why helping refuges = constructing yet-another overseas military installation. I also find such a view especially odd coming from a man who is otherwise so critical of government assistance as a domestic issue. Moreover, I’m sure you’d have no problem if the Russians built a base on Cuba and deployed into New Orleans to provide boots-on-ground “refugee assistance” to the displaced denizens of Katrina.

You don’t see the connection because you don’t want to. The lives we have likely saved are best show in this video on conflicts. It focuses heavily on WW2 but touches on my point at the end (long peace). Very well done and worth watching, if just for the facts.

Suffering is not an excuse for imperialism. If so - hell - there’s a hundred other places we should all put up bases. And why just Americans? We could use a Chinese base in Honduras to help solve the issues there that fuel a lot of our immigration issues, right?

What exactly do you mean by ‘imperialism’?
You use it with negative overtones but the standard definition fits with regular diplomacy.
The US has been very sparing in exerting military power in conflict, certainly not used for stealing resources.

Moreover, I’d argue that most refugee crises of the last century can be largely laid at the feet of western powers not staying in the west (lookin’ at you, Brits).

And I’m very well aware of the economic dependence of many folks on our military presence. We get a good estimate of it just by looking at what we’re spending on the installation. So let the Germans solve German problems.

Now you sound like a Trump supporter, pushing for NATO allies to beef up their own defense capabilities so we can reduce ours with stability. Stability is an important component that shouldn’t be ignored, it’s what prevents refugee crisis’s.

 

[Vonsalza]

You don’t see the connection because you don’t want to.

Nonsense. How many organizations set up on-site aid centers for refugees without a military?

If the zone’s so hot that these organization won’t set up camp, then call the UN. Regardless, you’ve presented no good argument to support the ludicrous idea that refugee aid = American military installation.

ROFL that you call the US imperialists

Not directly, I didn’t. But…

Per Oxford;
Imperialism: A policy of extending a country’s power and influence through colonization, use of military force, or other means.

Seems to fit pretty well…

Now you sound like a Trump supporter

Yeah, I’m one of those odd folks whose ideas don’t all completely fall under some neat little label. I only share this in common with maybe… I dunno… 99.99% of all people.

Stability is an important component that shouldn’t be ignored, it’s what prevents refugee crisis’s.

I’ve heard similar advice about resisting foreign meddling.

 

[PetraG]

"Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights – for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture—is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.”

Conversely, however, it does not make sense to make abortion illegal while failing to change societal conditions that are an obvious near-occasion of the sin, does it?
Remember what it says in the Letter of James:
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
James 2:15-16

Yes, a just society would make every realistic accommodation to discourage mothers from ever feeling they are being forced to choose between the life of their unborn child and making a living for the children they have.

Speaking of “litmus tests”: Who wants to go before the Throne of God and explain why they were enforcing laws against theft but not concerning themselves with whether or not a poor man, the widow or the orphan could keep alive without turning to stealing food? That is the litmus test that ought to rise in our minds.

 

[gcshapero]

Conversely, however, it does not make sense to make abortion illegal while failing to change societal conditions that are an obvious near-occasion of the sin, does it?

To work toward ending abortion shouldn’t by default mean our other responsibilities can go ignored. But it is always important that we as Catholics subsume the responsibility to work toward ending abortion, and that includes on a legal level.

 

[PetraG]

To work toward ending abortion shouldn’t by default mean our other responsibilities can go ignored. But it is always important that we as Catholics subsume the responsibility to work toward ending abortion, and that includes on a legal level.

My point was that pregnancies are saved on the practical level, regardless of what is going on at the legal level. If we are concerned about unborn children, we must always be practical about it.

No, of course we should never tolerate the falsehood that there is a “right” to abortion. The standard of “safe, legal and rare” is nonsense. No one tolerates “safe, legal and rare” child abuse and I don’t think anyone who really admits what abortion is can ever tolerate legalization of the killing of innocent people.

 

[gcshapero]

My point was that pregnancies are saved on the practical level, regardless of what is going on at the legal level. If we are concerned about unborn children, we must always be practical about it.

It depends on what you mean by that. For example, Huffington Post (I think it was them) recently came out with an article saying “Supporting Abortion IS being pro-life” and began to explain how when a woman aborts, how she can better care for herself, perhaps for her other children, her community, etc.

While caring for herself, her family, and circles, are very important, it is downright diabolical to say that killing someone else in order to better do these things is now “pro-life.”

 

[PetraG]

It depends on what you mean by that. For example, Huffington Post (I think it was them) recently came out with an article saying “Supporting Abortion IS being pro-life” and began to explain how when a woman aborts, how she can better care for herself, perhaps for her other children, her community, etc.

While caring for herself, her family, and circles, are very important, it is downright diabolical to say that killing someone else in order to better do these things is now “pro-life.”

I tacked on a clarification as you wrote this. I agree with you totally that “safe, legal and rare” is an utter falsehood. You cannot protect life by killing someone who didn’t attack anyone.

 

[PetraG]

If you are going to partake in the baby-making act you should be prepared for the baby. That’s being an adult.

Yes, but if you are going to be pro-life you have to be merciful, as well. The Lord did not say, did He, “I was hungry through no fault of my own and you gave me food…”?

 

[Crocus]

The women who cannot do that generally have jobs which can’t support mandated paid leave anyways. McD’s and comparable jobs aren’t going to be able to afford offering paid leave for what is unskilled labor. In those cases, most of those women have options through the state and federal welfare programs.

We do take care of our own, it just looks different from how the rest of the world does it.

Taking care of its own, looks like this.

Isn’t 40% an awfully high number of people who can’t afford the basics? Contrast that with million and billion dollar incomes untouched by policy that recognizes the disparity. Unskilled labor, any labor, deserves decent pay and benefits. It just requires the will to accomplish it.

Exclusive: 40% in U.S. can't afford middle-class basics(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)