Why it is Dangerous Not to Believe in Purgatory

[distracted]

Purgatory +praying to mary, lighting candles, etc, its good stuff if it were found in the bible, but sorry its not there, .

Jesus’ Presence isn’t there either…

He is in the Church 24/7…

have you ever spend time with Him There?

 

[RNRobert]

no any talk from christ about baptism,

Actually, Christ did talk about baptism, as do the apostles: Matthew 28:19; John 3:5, Acts 2:38,41; 1 Peter 3:21.

There is nothing in the Bible about the Trinity or Incarnation, yet most Christians believe in these things.

 

[onenow1]

:twocents: Hi, Ja4
In the beginning Adam did not know sin.

When Adam sinned we weren’t around, we inheirited Adams original disobedience to God, Original sin ], this is why Jeus had to redeem mankind, and baptism does this for original sin. Sins committed after baptism also need to be forgiven, thats why,sacremental reconciliation is necessary.
And Thats Why: Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or retain. If you receive baptism after the age of reason, of course actual sins would be forgiven by baptism.

Remember: Jesus told Peter you must forgive 7 x 70 x.

I would suggest when our days are over, our spirit soul ] still knows of sin wouldn’t some kind of purification be necessary ?
Before we reach the pearly gates. :twocents:

Peace, onenow1.

 

[distracted]

NO, I see no logic for purgatory if Christ atoned for our sins. Do you believe Christ atoned for your sins, why or why not?

atonement for sins has to be applied… If all a person does is say “I am forgiven… I can now do whatever i want… (more or less)… and my salvation is secure…” (osas)… he is forgetting the stain on his soul caused by sins that have not been given fully to Jesus… and is sure to commit others… dirtying up his soul further…

Jesus dying on the cross did not change the fact that one plus one equals two…

One sin plus another equals more stain on the soul that needs more Jesus… to get rid of it… 100%

 

[distracted]

Actually, Christ did talk about baptism, as do the apostles: Matthew 28:19; John 3:5, Acts 2:38,41; 1 Peter 3:21.

There is nothing in the Bible about the Trinity or Incarnation, yet most Christians believe in these things.

actually there is quite a lot about Purgatory in the New Testament… it is just that the word Purgatory is not there… just as (as you say) the words: Trinity and incarnation are not there…

(the word: Bible is not in the Bible either )

 

[RNRobert]

actually there is quite a lot about Purgatory in the New Testament… it is just that the word Purgatory is not there… just as (as you say) the words: Trinity and incarnation are not there…

(the word: Bible is not in the Bible either )

Hmmm… I notice our friend George 57 has only made that one post, and no others. I guess he’s a hit-and-run poster…

 

[george_57]

George 57 ,no i have not run away, i was finishing off a little bit of info about peter being the first pope, yet we dont have anything in the bible, or even ant other history papes of that time , you say peter was bishop , in rome for 25 years, not any proof, nothing, so if its not true , or if its is true and peter being married, well does it mean, your first pope abandoned his wife, really , i state again {christ only,} not works, salvation is a gift,and let me say, unless one gets born of god , you will never be filled by the holy spirit, and its why none of you can state i,am saved, its got to be Purgatory, not even i the bible,get a hold of every study bible look up all the verses that comes close to your thinking of Purgatory,not one bit of info, you no why, because christ done i all, its finished, his saying from the cross, the thief, on the cross was put there in a way to show , salvation is free, no baptism, praying to mary, or dead saints, free, just repent let god in prayer you are a sinner, ask christ into your life, talk to other born again christian, Mother Teresa, after 50+years of real hard work, she found out works could not cut it, and she died lost and scared, and alone, please walk up , a person gets saved monday and dies 2 mins later, it will change nothing, why because christ bore all his sins, past, present, thats whats says the bible, maybe you should start reading it, for i believe most of you out there are very weak, in bible truths, works or beinging born catholic will not save anyone, may the lord open up your eyes, god bless. are you lot out there scared to answer me,by by.

 

[onenow1]

George 57 ,no i have not run away, i was finishing off a little bit of info about peter being the first pope, yet we dont have anything in the bible, or even ant other history papes of that time , you say peter was bishop , in rome for 25 years, not any proof, nothing, so if its not true , or if its is true and peter being married, well does it mean, your first pope abandoned his wife, really , i state again {christ only,} not works, salvation is a gift,and let me say, unless one gets born of god , you will never be filled by the holy spirit, and its why none of you can state i,am saved, its got to be Purgatory, not even i the bible,get a hold of every study bible look up all the verses that comes close to your thinking of Purgatory,not one bit of info, you no why, because christ done i all, its finished, his saying from the cross, the thief, on the cross was put there in a way to show , salvation is free, no baptism, praying to mary, or dead saints, free, just repent let god in prayer you are a sinner, ask christ into your life, talk to other born again christian, Mother Teresa, after 50+years of real hard work, she found out works could not cut it, and she died lost and scared, and alone, please walk up , a person gets saved monday and dies 2 mins later, it will change nothing, why because christ bore all his sins, past, present, thats whats says the bible, maybe you should start reading it, for i believe most of you out there are very weak, in bible truths, works or beinging born catholic will not save anyone, may the lord open up your eyes, god bless. are you lot out there scared to answer me,by by.

Some Scripture verses for Purgatory:
Sir 7:33, Isa 6:5-7, Isa 61:1, *2Macc 12:38-46, Mal 3:2-3, Mt 5:25-26,48, Mt 17:1-8, Mt 25:31-46, Lk 6:19-31,
Lk 12:58-59, *1Cor 3:12-15, 2Cor 5:10, Eph 6:18, Phil 2:10, 2Tim 1:16-18, Jam 1:12,5:19-20, Heb 9:27, Heb 12:23, 1Pet *1:3-7, 1Pet *3:13-20, *1Pet 4:6, Rev 6:9-10, Rev 21:27,22:14-15

=onenow1 This is a start George.

Peace,

 

[RNRobert]

George 57 ,no i have not run away, i was finishing off a little bit of info about peter being the first pope, yet we dont have anything in the bible, or even ant other history papes of that time , you say peter was bishop , in rome for 25 years, not any proof, nothing, so if its not true , or if its is true and peter being married, well does it mean, your first pope abandoned his wife, really , i state again {christ only,} not works, salvation is a gift,and let me say, unless one gets born of god , you will never be filled by the holy spirit, and its why none of you can state i,am saved, its got to be Purgatory, not even i the bible,get a hold of every study bible look up all the verses that comes close to your thinking of Purgatory,not one bit of info, you no why, because christ done i all, its finished, his saying from the cross, the thief, on the cross was put there in a way to show , salvation is free, no baptism, praying to mary, or dead saints, free, just repent let god in prayer you are a sinner, ask christ into your life, talk to other born again christian, Mother Teresa, after 50+years of real hard work, she found out works could not cut it, and she died lost and scared, and alone, please walk up , a person gets saved monday and dies 2 mins later, it will change nothing, why because christ bore all his sins, past, present, thats whats says the bible, maybe you should start reading it, for i believe most of you out there are very weak, in bible truths, works or beinging born catholic will not save anyone, may the lord open up your eyes, god bless. are you lot out there scared to answer me,by by.

How do you know that everything a Christian needs to know or believe is in the Bible? Read 1 Cor 11:2, and 2 Thessalonians 2:15. And what is the pillar and foundation of truth? Read 1 Tim 2:15.
You are also wrong about baptism not being necessary- read Matthew 28:19; John 3:5, Acts 2:38,41; 1 Peter 3:21.
What about the Lord’s Supper? Does your church have Jesus present, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, or is it nothing more than a memorial meal? Perhaps your church dispenses with it all together. Read John 6, and 1 Corinthians 11:23-32.
BTW, good works ARE necessary. Read Matthew 25, Acts 26:20 1 Corinthians 2:10-17. James 2:14-26. I was once a “born again Christian,” but as I read the Bible, I saw that what I was taught in my church regarding “faith alone” and what the Bible teaches are two different things.
As for Mother Teresa, how do you know she was not saved? Faith is much more than saying “I believe” and having warm fuzzy feelings. When Jesus was on the cross, he cried out “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Jesus tells us to pick up our cross and follow him, which means it is to be expected that we should share in Christ’s passion. If Jesus was in agony at Gethsemane and later on the cross, what makes you think He will give us a free pass on suffering? Jesus forgave the thief on the cross his sins, but he still had to pay for his crimes.

 

[distracted]

Mother Teresa, after 50+years of real hard work, she found out works could not cut it, and she died lost and scared, and alone,y.

get real… Mother Teresa died as she lived… loving Jesus… Her last words were, “I love you, Jesus”. She was NOT alone… No practicing Catholic is EVER alone in this world… because devout catholics are closer to Jesus than any other Christian…

And i know this because i have been “other christian” and i have also been Catholic…

doesn’t look like you can say that…

 

[JonNC]

distracted,

Lutheran-Roman Catholic Dialogue Addresses Life Beyond Death
usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-212.shtml

Father Tavard showed how purgatory has been understood by Catholics as both a place of punishment and a state of cleansing, perhaps even momentary, at the time of death. Among the mystics, the latter image has greater prominence inasmuch as final purgation means an encounter with the “fire” of divine love which removes the effects of sin on the human person.

I could see and accept the idea of purgatory, when described in this way. What I can’t get my head around is the notion that I can, by my actions on earth (pennance), have an influence on how long I’m there, or my remaining sins (or their effects). If you told me purgatory was that time prior to entering heaven that Christ cleanses me with his atoning love, I could buy it.

Jon

 

[distracted]

distracted,

Lutheran-Roman Catholic Dialogue Addresses Life Beyond Death
usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-212.shtml

I could see and accept the idea of purgatory, when described in this way. What I can’t get my head around is the notion that I can, by my actions on earth (pennance), have an influence on how long I’m there, or my remaining sins (or their effects). If you told me purgatory was that time prior to entering heaven that Christ cleanses me with his atoning love, I could buy it.

Jon

i think you should buy it more because the Word of God “sells it” (as it were)…

but in any case… i don’t understand why its so hard to understand that your actions have consequences… to others and also to your own soul… If you do something God hates (the bible, for example, says that God “hates” divorce… and hates all sin)… you go away from Him… If you go far enough away from Him… well, you know waht happens…

when one does soemthing bad, one must do something good to make up for it… and even then, it is not always easy to make something as good as it was before you sinned… I know i am not saying this as articulately as i would like (i have limited time, etc…) but i think you can figure out w aht i am saying… to do good brings grace to the soul… to do bad does not… To do bad, but then repent without doing anything to make up for the bad… well… that is incomplete repentance…

 

[JonNC]

i think you should buy it more because the Word of God “sells it” (as it were)…

but in any case… i don’t understand why its so hard to understand that your actions have consequences… to others and also to your own soul… If you do something God hates (the bible, for example, says that God “hates” divorce… and hates all sin)… you go away from Him… If you go far enough away from Him… well, you know waht happens…

when one does soemthing bad, one must do something good to make up for it… and even then, it is not always easy to make something as good as it was before you sinned… I know i am not saying this as articulately as i would like (i have limited time, etc…) but i think you can figure out w aht i am saying… to do good brings grace to the soul… to do bad does not… To do bad, but then repent without doing anything to make up for the bad… well… that is incomplete repentance…

I think you misunderstand me. I know what I do has consequences, and I certainly don’t think that I can merely go on sinning. And I also believe that repentance must be followed with efforts to do right (see my sig.) What I’m saying is that I don’t see how I can do anything good enough to make up for my sin, or its consequences, that I must rely on Christ, and his atonement and grace. Do you see what I mean? It is not a questioning of the necessity of good works, it is a questioning of whether or not my works, no matter how good, are anywhere near good enough, even to compensate for the effect of my sin.

Jon

 

[distracted]

I think you misunderstand me. I know what I do has consequences, and I certainly don’t think that I can merely go on sinning. And I also believe that repentance must be followed with efforts to do right (see my sig.) What I’m saying is that I don’t see how I can do anything good enough to make up for my sin, or its consequences, that I must rely on Christ, and his atonement and grace. Do you see what I mean? It is not a questioning of the necessity of good works, it is a questioning of whether or not my works, no matter how good, are anywhere near good enough, even to compensate for the effect of my sin.

Jon

Ok… i totally understand… I understand because i have “been there”…

Our good works are, as the bible says, as “filthy rags”… and so you are right to realize that they are insufficient… and taht we must rely on Christ… but what does relying on Him really mean?

It would help if i knew your spiritual history… as much as you are willing to share…

I just left a post for someone else (Catholic) @ antoher Thread who needed help in the area of … well, he liked sin… etc… I said to him what i say to just about anyone who will listen (and a few who won’t ): that the best thing to do to get closer to Christ… to be more “in Him”… is to spend time with Him at the Blessed Sacrament… (the Real Presence in the Church 24/7)… If you are Protestant, you may not believe in the Real Presence… but anyone who goes There & sits in silence… for at least an hour… will know why i recommend it… and i recommend virtually only that (along with the sacraments, the Mass, e tc)… The souls in Purg are also There with you… (I’ve heard… and totally believe…).They can pray for us and we for them… I am feeling wistful now… as i write this becaue i wish i was There now… i can’t begin to put into words what all i get out of that…

God bless.

 

[JonNC]

Ok… i totally understand… I understand because i have “been there”…

Our good works are, as the bible says, as “filthy rags”… and so you are right to realize that they are insufficient… and taht we must rely on Christ… but what does relying on Him really mean?

It would help if i knew your spiritual history… as much as you are willing to share…

God bless.

Cradle Lutheran. And maybe that speaks to it a bit. But I also know that purgatory has nothing to do with justification, as everyone in purgatory is bound for heaven. So, I don’t think I’m misunderstanding the concept of purgatory.
I am reluctant to be so bold as to say that my works can satisfy the consequences of my sin. Relying on Him means to me that even my good works, such as they are, are really the good works of the Holy Spirit being done through me. And I cannot claim any merit for them, for He alone does.

See?

Jon

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

get real… Mother Teresa died as she lived… loving Jesus… Her last words were, “I love you, Jesus”. She was NOT alone… No practicing Catholic is EVER alone in this world… because devout catholics are closer to Jesus than any other Christian…

And i know this because i have been “other christian” and i have also been Catholic…

doesn’t look like you can say that…

Since I have been Catholic and now “other Christian” and didn’t Spiritually blossom until leaving the Roman church, does that mean that devout Protestants are closer to Jesus than any Catholic?

 

[distracted]

But I also know that purgatory has nothing to do with justification, as everyone in purgatory is bound for heaven.

souls in Purgatory are getting justified… by Christ… the Holy Spirit… (not sure if you would argue with that or what… ?)

I am reluctant to be so bold as to say that my works can satisfy the consequences of my sin.

well, works done in Christ DO satisfy… He makes up for what is lacking in you…

Relying on Him means to me that even my good works, such as they are, are really the good works of the Holy Spirit being done through me. And I cannot claim any merit for them, for He alone does.

Well, technically speaking, we can’t take credit for ANYTHING… i mean, we didn’t create ourselves… We didn’t create the free will that decides to do something good or something bad. The only thing that is really OURS is our choices…

 

[JonNC]

=distracted;4312146]souls in Purgatory are getting justified… by Christ… the Holy Spirit… (not sure if you would argue with that or what… ?)

Ok, I understand. I was saying that those destined for hell have no need of purgatory? Those in purgatory are always going to heaven. Yes?

well, works done in Christ DO satisfy… He makes up for what is lacking in you…

Now that makes sense, on first blush. I’ll think on that.

Well, technically speaking, we can’t take credit for ANYTHING… i mean, we didn’t create ourselves… We didn’t create the free will that decides to do something good or something bad. The only thing that is really OURS is our choices

Once we are regenerate, yes.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[distracted]

Since I have been Catholic and now “other Christian” and didn’t Spiritually blossom until leaving the Roman church, does that mean that devout Protestants are closer to Jesus than any Catholic?

i have been “Protestant” and i have been Catholic. (and i have been devout Catholic). I began to know Jesus intimately when i began to attend Mass on a regular basis… when i began to go to frequent confession… and probably mostly when i began to spend time with Jesus at the Blessed Sacrament… a caring priest told me about the Blessed Sacrament, something i did not know about until then… (i was raised “Catholic”…but not catechized until i catechized myself about 12 yrs ago… ).

anyway… i have been “all over the board” spriitually (born-again, etc.). But i was born again when uncatechized… (not to mention young and foolish )… I was veyr close to Christ when i was 1st “born again” or spirit filled as the catholics call it… but then, the devil did this & that and i was stupid and waht have you… Many yrs later, i found the catholic faith… studied it… and now i am closer to Christ than i have ever been in my life… and i am doing what he commands far better than i ever have… which is waht counts… Jesus said that not t hose who say Lord, Lord will etner the kingdom of Heaven but he who does the will of the Father…

 

[distracted]

Ok, I understand. I was saying that those destined for hell have no need of purgatory? Those in purgatory are always going to heaven. Yes?

yes…

Once we are regenerate, yes.

Thanks,
Jon

i am not sure i understand this statement… Are you saying that only the regenerate… as opposed to the degenerate or unregenerate (??) really “own their choices”???