Why Jesus did not openly say this: "I AM GOD'

[clem456]

That’s an indirect way of saying it bro. The thread inquires why Jesus did not openly say this: “I AM GOD.”

The fact that Jesus is one with his Father does not mean the Father and Son must express themselves in identical human words.
God is God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
God reveals himself to human beings.
Human beings express revelation in human language and expression.
The Father’s identity is expressed in different human words than the Son’s. At the same time those different words express their unity.

If God revealed himself directly to you in the explicit way you seem to want, your eyes might begin to steam and your head explode. Be careful what you wish for.
Not even Moses saw God in his essence. God is incomprehensible, literally. God reveals himself to Moses as a burning bush.

God the Son is incarnate in human flesh. God becomes Logos for us. He becomes someone reason-able for us. Comprehensible. The way he reveals himself is the way he wills it. “taking the form of a slave”. We can all identify with that.

He does not will to stand up on the stump and proclaim his majesty directly. I just simply have to respect that. Jesus Christ is humble, and deferential. He emphasizes the unity of God, with the Father in the Holy Spirit, not his own majesty.
I think we should be careful what we demand of God.
I think this is instructive on the desire to have God’s identity handed to us:

Oneness with the Father

  7“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”

  8**Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.**” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10“Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11“Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13“Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14“If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

  15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

I do not, I just think they are a bit misunderstood. John just points out the overall importance of God’s words, that is, the creative power of God’s words, pivotal for understanding his gospel.

These words, that existed from the beginning, materialized into Jesus Christ (John 1:14)

Just as we now have Jesus Christ in the form of bread and wine, you had in the beginning Jesus Christ in the form of God’s words. God the Fathers words.

Once again, this doesn’t mean that Jesus was God the Father himself, he was only God the Fathers spoken word, by which everything was created.

This shouldn’t be so difficult to understand ?

“And the Word was God.” Not just God’s spoken Word but God Himself. Jesus is God.

 

[PNEUMA]

Oneness with the Father

7“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”

8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10“Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11“Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13“Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14“If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Jesus doesn’t say he is the Father, he says he is the image of the Father.

He says the Father is in him and speaks through him.

 

[sudy]

Jesus doesn’t say he is the Father, he says he is the image of the Father.

He says the Father is in him and speaks through him.

Would you mind clarifying your position please? Every time I look in here you’re saying the same thing… that Jesus is not the Father. What exactly is your point? Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?

 

[PNEUMA]

“And the Word was God.” Not just God’s spoken Word but God Himself. Jesus is God.

It clearly says, the word was God. The word that later became Jesus Christ (John 1:14)

 

[sudy]

Yes, the Word was God. Is somebody denying that? I still don’t grasp what point you’re trying to make.

 

[clem456]

Jesus doesn’t say he is the Father, he says he is the image of the Father.

He says the Father is in him and speaks through him.

No I am sorry. He plainly and clearly states he and the Father are one.
United. As one.
Like sex. Two persons, one flesh. Kinda like that by significance.
Have you read the whole thread? There are plenty of references pointing to the unity of Father and Son.

You might reject them, ok, but let’s not pretend the passages don’t say what they clearly say.

 

[sudy]

There are plenty of references pointing to the unity of Father and Son

Yes, here are a few:

Genesis 1:26 God said, 'Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves…

John 1 In the beginning was the Word; the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things came into being, not one thing came into being except through him… The Word became flesh, he lived among us, and we saw his glory, the glory that He has from the Father as only Son of the Father.

Philippians 2 Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grapsed. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness…

John 16 I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth… Everything that the Father has is mine…

Isaiah 9:6-7 For a son has been born for us, a son has been given to us, and dominion has been laid on his shoulders; and this is the name he has been given, ‘Wonder-Counsellor, Mighty-God, Eternal-Father, Prince-of-Peace’ to extend his dominion in boundless peace, over the throne of David …

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;13810034:

Jesus doesn’t say he is the Father, he says he is the image of the Father.

He says the Father is in him and speaks through him.

No I am sorry. He plainly and clearly states he and the Father are one.
United. As one.
Like sex. Two persons, one flesh. Kinda like that by significance.
Have you read the whole thread? There are plenty of references pointing to the unity of Father and Son.

You might reject them, ok, but let’s not pretend the passages don’t say what they clearly say.

He nowhere says, they are one and the same person. He constantly differentiates between him and the Father. It’s not possible to understand the Gospel, if you think that Jesus and the Father is one and the same person.

 

[PJM]

He nowhere says, they are one and the same person. He constantly differentiates between him and the Father. It’s not possible to understand the Gospel, if you think that Jesus and the Father is one and the same person.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;13810034:

Jesus doesn’t say he is the Father, he says he is the image of the Father.

He says the Father is in him and speaks through him.

Would you mind clarifying your position please? Every time I look in here you’re saying the same thing… that Jesus is not the Father. What exactly is your point? Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?

God the Father is the Holy spirit in Jesus Christ, the spirit that speaks through Jesus

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

 

[Tomdstone]

Yes, here are a few:

Genesis 1:26 God said, 'Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves…

John 1 In the beginning was the Word; the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things came into being, not one thing came into being except through him… The Word became flesh, he lived among us, and we saw his glory, the glory that He has from the Father as only Son of the Father.

Philippians 2 Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grapsed. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness…

John 16 I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth… Everything that the Father has is mine…

Isaiah 9:6-7 For a son has been born for us, a son has been given to us, and dominion has been laid on his shoulders; and this is the name he has been given, ‘Wonder-Counsellor, Mighty-God, Eternal-Father, Prince-of-Peace’ to extend his dominion in boundless peace, over the throne of David …

If Jesus is God, He is omniscient. But it is written that only the Father knows the day or the hour, not the Son.

 

[PNEUMA]

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

John 14:28
the Father is greater than I

 

[sudy]

Yes, here are a few:

Genesis 1:26 God said, 'Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves…

John 1 In the beginning was the Word; the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things came into being, not one thing came into being except through him… The Word became flesh, he lived among us, and we saw his glory, the glory that He has from the Father as only Son of the Father.

Philippians 2 Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grapsed. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness…

John 16 I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth… Everything that the Father has is mine…

Isaiah 9:6-7 For a son has been born for us, a son has been given to us, and dominion has been laid on his shoulders; and this is the name he has been given, ‘Wonder-Counsellor, Mighty-God, Eternal-Father, Prince-of-Peace’ to extend his dominion in boundless peace, over the throne of David …

If Jesus is God, He is omniscient. But it is written that only the Father knows the day or the hour, not the Son.

Did you not read the quote from Philippians? Though he was in the form of God, he emptied himself out to take on the form of human beings. To become like us. Do you think this verse was a mistake? What emptying out was required? How exactly do you understand this verse?

With God in the beginning in Genesis and in John: The Word was with God and the Word was God. << With God and being God. How do you understand this verse? Another mistake?

What was John the Baptist doing preparing the way for the Lord? Which Lord? Why did Jesus’s disciples baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit? If there is only the Father, why not baptize simply with God, or God the Father?

God the Father is the Holy spirit in Jesus Christ, the spirit that speaks through Jesus

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

I still don’t quite understand your position. Are you saying that Jesus is simply an empty shell with God’s Spirit inside? What was he before his baptism? Just curious what you think.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

John 14:28
the Father is greater than I

So does John contradict himself when he says the Word is God? God is the perfect community of love in three Divine Persons: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. God is Three in One.

 

[ynotzap]

This is a complete misunderstanding, Jesus just answers “it’s me” or “I am he” to the Temple guards. He doesn’t say God’s old testament name.

BTW: God has a new name (John 17:6 and 17:26)

Why do you think the Roman soldiers fell to the ground when Jesus said “I Am” if He wasn’t demonstrating that He was God, He was in full command, and nobody took His life, He gave it freely. What Bible are you reading? Read John 18: 4-8 (The New American Bible), IN the revised standard version it is “I am he”. The King James Version reads "I Am He. So there is a bit of confusion in the translations. The fact that they fell to the ground is significant. And also it was confirmed by the Jews that He was accused of blaspheming for making himself, the Son of God, identifying himself with the “I Am”

Tetragrammation:–of four letters. It indicates the name by which God is commonly designated in the Hebrew Bible (about 6823 times) It consists of four letters: J HWH and is read Jahweh. While other names signify the nature of God (eg. 'el, 'elohim), this one disignates His very person and is the most holy and incommunicable name. After the exile (5th century BC) the Hebrews, out of reverence, avoided pronouncing it; at the time of Christ it was licit for the high priest alone to mention it during the solemn annual ceremony of the expiation

After the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem (a.d. 70) the sacred name was substituted in the Bible by Adonai (My Lord) and Elohim (God) The four original letters were preserved, but there were added to the the vowels of the other two names which were pronounced by the reader, substituting the consonants; in the Bible Jehovah or Jehowih were written, but one read Adonai and Elohim. By ignorance of such substitutions the erroneous reading Jehovah entered into use in the fourteenth century.

The Tetragrammation was revealed by God to Moses as a new name, when He entrusted to hiim the task of freeing the people from slavery of Eygypt. It’s meaning is given by Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses: I Am Who Am. thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: He Who is, hath sent me to you" the name in fact derives from the Hebrew root HJH (hajah) or HWH (hawah) and is the first person singular of the imperfect tense, improperly so called, and which would better be called preformative on account of its morphological property of being formed from the root by means of a preforming letter J. From the verbal sentence “I Am Who Am"spontaneous passage was made to the name represented by the third person: JaHWeH “he who is”, which signifies:” He who truly is" He whose essential property is to be (divine essence) Some authors derive the name from the causal form of the verbal root, obtaining the meaning; “He who gives being” eg. “the Creator” In all the vast domain of the Semitic languages to which the Hebrew belongs, no other divine name is formed from a verb, especially from a performative tense; all the other names are of noun formation, for the most part substantive. This shows that the Tetragrammation is not a spontaneous product of the popular religion or an invention of men; it is as the Bible says, directly revealed by God. (taken from the Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology)

 

[Tomdstone]

So does John contradict himself when he says the Word is God? God is the perfect community of love in three Divine Persons: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. God is Three in One.

It seems to be a contradiction because it is written that only the Father knows the day or hour, not the omniscient Son.

 

[sudy]

It seems to be a contradiction because it is written that only the Father knows the day or hour, not the omniscient Son.

That’s because he came to be like man in all things but sin… he emptied himself:

Philippians 2 Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grapsed. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness…

 

[Tomdstone]

That’s because he came to be like man in all things but sin… he emptied himself:

Was the Son omniscient?

 

[sudy]

Jesus was, and is, fully God and fully man. As God he was omniscient, as man he was able to grow in wisdom and stature. I don’t pretend to know all of the mysteries of God, however.

If I have gone against Catholic teaching, I hope somebody will please correct me. To err is human, to forgive is divine

I’ll just add that Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth.

Edit: ‘And Jesus advanced (in) wisdom and age and favor before God and man.’