Why Jesus did not openly say this: "I AM GOD'

[clem456]

He nowhere says, they are one and the same person. He constantly differentiates between him and the Father. It’s not possible to understand the Gospel, if you think that Jesus and the Father is one and the same person.

3 distinct persons. One God.
Unity in diversity.
I don’t think anyone said Jesus and the Father are the same person. Did they?

Do you believe in the Trinity?.
If you don’t believe in it there’s nothing anyone will say to prove it to you.
It’s reflected in nature, but if you don’t believe it won’t make sense.

 

[ynotzap]

It seems to be a contradiction because it is written that only the Father knows the day or hour, not the omniscient Son.

As I see it, Jesus is God in union with the Father and the Holy Spirit, but Jesus also has human nature. He knows, but not with a knowledge He could communicate to humans because it is of a super-natural nature to know this. So , I believe He was speaking from His human nature eg. When He said I have other bread that you do not know, some interpret this as a personal communicating and experiencing a union with His Father, and the Spirit, a divine action that always took place in the soul of Christ He was never separated from that Union, even when He said “Father, why have you abandoned me!?” He experienced human abandonment, and also he could have known that in spite of all his efforts to save all mankind, there would be those who would refuse to turn to Him for salvation and this caused Him excruciating pain. He was like us in all things, except sin.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

It seems to be a contradiction because it is written that only the Father knows the day or hour, not the omniscient Son.

So is John a liar to you?

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;13810277:

God the Father is the Holy spirit in Jesus Christ, the spirit that speaks through Jesus

John 14:10

“The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”
I still don’t quite understand your position. Are you saying that Jesus is simply an empty shell with God’s Spirit inside? What was he before his baptism? Just curious what you think.

I am saying the same thing Jesus said, God the Father is inside him.

John 4:24 God is spirit

God the Father talks and works through him.

 

[clem456]

I am saying the same thing Jesus said, God the Father is inside him.

John 4:24 God is spirit

God the Father talks and works through him.

Yes he does.

And they are distinct persons.
They are one in unity, and diverse persons.

Through Christ, with Christ, in Christ, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is given the Father, in eternity.

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;13810290:

John 14:28
the Father is greater than I

So does John contradict himself when he says the Word is God? …

No it’s just you that read “the Jesus is God” when it says “the Word is God”

 

[sudy]

I am saying the same thing Jesus said, God the Father is inside him.

John 4:24 God is spirit

God the Father talks and works through him.

The problem with this is that Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit is ‘another’ Paraclete/Advocate, therefore not the same as Jesus.

Luke 14:16-17
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

Luke 14:26
The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name - he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.

Luke 15:26-27
"When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me. And you also testify, because you have been with me from the beginning.

Luke 16:7
But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.

Luke 16:12-14
"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.

It’s been an interesting conversation but it’s my bedtime now night night

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;13810704:

I am saying the same thing Jesus said, God the Father is inside him.

John 4:24

God is spirit

God the Father talks and works through him.Yes he does.

And they are distinct persons.
They are one in unity, and diverse persons.

Through Christ, with Christ, in Christ, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is given the Father, in eternity.

I’m glad to see you understand this

 

[clem456]

I’m glad to see you understand this

Call me confused.

The fact that Jesus is one with his Father does not mean the Father and Son must express themselves in identical human words.
God is God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
God reveals himself to human beings.
Human beings express revelation in human language and expression.
The Father’s identity is expressed in different human words than the Son’s. At the same time those different words express their unity.

If God revealed himself directly to you in the explicit way you seem to want, your eyes might begin to steam and your head explode. Be careful what you wish for.
Not even Moses saw God in his essence. God is incomprehensible, literally. God reveals himself to Moses as a burning bush.

God the Son is incarnate in human flesh. God becomes Logos for us. He becomes someone reason-able for us. Comprehensible. The way he reveals himself is the way he wills it. “taking the form of a slave”. We can all identify with that.

He does not will to stand up on the stump and proclaim his majesty directly. I just simply have to respect that. Jesus Christ is humble, and deferential. He emphasizes the unity of God, with the Father in the Holy Spirit, not his own majesty.
I think we should be careful what we demand of God.
I think this is instructive on the desire to have God’s identity handed to us:

Jesus doesn’t say he is the Father, he says he is the image of the Father.

He says the Father is in him and speaks through him.

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;13810704:

sudy;13810370:

PNEUMA;13810277:

God the Father is the Holy spirit in Jesus Christ, the spirit that speaks through Jesus

John 14:10

*“The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”*I still don’t quite understand your position. Are you saying that Jesus is simply an empty shell with God’s Spirit inside? What was he before his baptism? Just curious what you think.I am saying the same thing Jesus said, God the Father is inside him.

John 4:24 God is spirit

God the Father talks and works through him.The problem with this is that Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit is ‘another’ Paraclete/Advocate, therefore not the same as Jesus…

Whoever said the Holy Spirit inside Jesus, is Jesus ?

Matthew 10:20 “for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.”

This shouldn’t be that difficult to understand ?

God is a good spirit that wants to speak and work through you, like he spoke and worked through Jesus.

 

[sudy]

God the Father is the Holy spirit in Jesus Christ, the spirit that speaks through Jesus

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

First of all, I quoted you wrong in my last post. I meant to quote this^^ one shown here.

Whoever said the Holy Spirit inside Jesus, is Jesus ?

Matthew 10:20 “for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.”

This shouldn’t be that difficult to understand ?

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying but this upper quote seemed to me like you were saying that the Holy Spirit inside Jesus, is who Jesus is… as though Jesus wasn’t a person of the Holy Trinity in his own right.

As to the Matthew quote, that is to us for when we are persecuted.

At the end of the day, there is only One God… with three distinct persons of the one God. They are united as One God, so the Father, and Our Lord, and the Holy Spirit are united as One. Jesus emptied himself and became as man… and had a human nature and a divine nature. We can agree that the Father speaks through, with, and in Jesus… as does the Spirit.

This is the best I can do as I’m very sleepy now.

turns off phone notifications and goes back to bed

 

[Tomdstone]

As I see it, Jesus is God in union with the Father and the Holy Spirit, but Jesus also has human nature. He knows, but not with a knowledge He could communicate to humans because it is of a super-natural nature to know this. So , I believe He was speaking from His human nature eg. When He said I have other bread that you do not know, some interpret this as a personal communicating and experiencing a union with His Father, and the Spirit, a divine action that always took place in the soul of Christ He was never separated from that Union, even when He said “Father, why have you abandoned me!?” He experienced human abandonment, and also he could have known that in spite of all his efforts to save all mankind, there would be those who would refuse to turn to Him for salvation and this caused Him excruciating pain. He was like us in all things, except sin.

But it is written that only the Father knows the day or hour. If only the Father knows the day or hour, would that not mean that the Son does not know the day or hour and the Holy Spirit does not know the day or the hour?

 

[Tomdstone]

So is John a liar to you?

I am trying to understand what is written.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Our Lord’s ministry was one huge act of mercy comprised of an unknown number of small acts of mercy.

Our Lord said there are degrees of punishment in eternity. Some people will have a worse punishment than others. People who knowingly reject Him will receive a worse punishment. Because of that, Our Lord gave the non-believers of His day a small mercy by not saying in so many words “I am God in the flesh”. The minute He says that out loud, anybody who hears Him is responsible for the decision they make. By not using those exact words, He gave the people who knew in their hearts who He is but rejected Him anyway the potential for a lesser degree of punishment.

Of course, there’s an argument it didn’t work well because the very people He was offering mercy to put Him on trial for being the Messiah. Then they found Him “guilty” of being the Messiah. Then they had Him killed. So there may not be any mercy for them.

 

[Tomdstone]

This used to bother me on some level too, wondering how an all-knowing God couldn’t know something it didn’t make sense. This part of scripture was hard for me to wrap my mind around!

But then again, Jesus had to learn how to walk didn’t He? He **chose **to empty Himself, He chose to empty Himself of all these things in order to be with us, I think that is what we are supposed to take from this. What a beautiful gift that is.

I heard Fulton Sheen (paraphrasing) asking us to imagine lowering ourselves as a human being to live the life of a dog. Imagine living with dogs, eating with dogs, sleeping with dogs. Well Jesus Christ actually lowered Himself much more than that because if a human being lowered themselves to a dog it would be a created being taking on the life of a created being, when Jesus became man it was God becoming a created being!

Imagine being a person trying to talk with dogs about beautiful paintings, beautiful music, the colors of the rainbow and all you can do is BARK. I think this may be how Jesus felt at times, only much more so. He truly emptied Himself, and this is why I think He chose not to know some things. Just my two cents anyway, I could be wrong but this helps me to attempt to understand this passage in scripture. God bless your day.

But the Holy Spirit is omniscient. Why would only the Father know the day or hour, but the Holy Spirit would not know the day or hour?

 

[CaptFun]

He did. Read John 10:30.

From the Catholic NAB … that verse and the context around it.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.

30 The Father and I are one."

31 The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?”

33 The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.”

34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?

35 If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside,

36 can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ’I am the Son of God’?

37 If I do not perform my Father’s works, do not believe me;

38 but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

39 (Then) they tried again to arrest him; but he escaped from their power.

It MAY BE the most prominent case of Jesus openly saying “I AM GOD” in scripture. But not the only one.

Since Jesus wanted people to have faith (rather than proof if the Thomas incident is any indication) He revealed the fact slowly during His public life … sometimes telling his disciples and others not to reveal what they knew (yet). Later He sent them forth in the power of the Holy Spirit to teach, baptize, convert, and forgive sins in His power.

 

[ynotzap]

If Jesus is God, He is omniscient. But it is written that only the Father knows the day or the hour, not the Son.

Even if all three Divine Persons are distinct from each other, they are identical with divine substance. Hence the three Persons are equal to each other and to each belong all the divine attributes. the only thing that is proper and exclusive to the Persons are the opposite relations (Paternity, Filiation, Active Spiration and Passive Spiration) which stem from the two immanent processions, that, namely, of the Son from the Father by way of intellection(which has the character of spiritual generation) and that of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son by way of volition and love. By force of the relations, each of the three Persons has a distinct mode of possessing the divine essence, as happens in a triangle in which every angle closes the same surface but in its own proper direction

Even though Jesus has all the attributes, the same as His Father (Omniscience is one) There was still the different relationship of Filiation (sonship) The Father knowing Himself begot the Son, and the love they; had for each other begot the Holy Spirit. Jesus was acknowledging this relationship. It is a Divine Mystery, but no contradiction.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

No it’s just you that read “the Jesus is God” when it says “the Word is God”

John goes on to say “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.” Jesus is the Word, the Word is God, therefore Jesus is God. God is three-in-one: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tomdstone]

Even though Jesus has all the attributes, the same as His Father (Omniscience is one) .

Here you say that Jesus is omniscient. But that was the question. If He is omniscient, would He know the day or the hour? Would the Holy Spirit know the day or the hour? But only the Father knows the day or the hour.

 

[Kurisu35712]

As I see it, Jesus is God in union with the Father and the Holy Spirit, but Jesus also has human nature. He knows, but not with a knowledge He could communicate to humans because it is of a super-natural nature to know this. So , I believe He was speaking from His human nature eg. When He said I have other bread that you do not know, some interpret this as a personal communicating and experiencing a union with His Father, and the Spirit, a divine action that always took place in the soul of Christ He was never separated from that Union, even when He said “Father, why have you abandoned me!?” He experienced human abandonment, and also he could have known that in spite of all his efforts to save all mankind, there would be those who would refuse to turn to Him for salvation and this caused Him excruciating pain. He was like us in all things, except sin.

The bolded is also a reference to Psalm 22, beginning with “My God, my God why have you abandoned me?” which goes on to describe everything Jesus experienced, even down to the casting of lots for His clothes. It is literally an outline of Jesus’s entire life, even up to this, which is the last line:

Psalm 22:32 NAB

The generation to come will be told of the Lord,

that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn

the deliverance you have brought.

Everyone standing around the cross at that moment would have heard His words and understood them to be a reference to that specific psalm. Though I do like the part I italicized as well. Very poignant.