Why Mother Angelica's Scaring Me Away:

[MrZetterlund]

Hello, lately I’ve been seriously contemplating “swimming the Tiber.” I usually never had a problem with the Mary devotion, and would laugh at protestant accusations that Catholics worship her. However, I was watching EWTN and was a very bothered by a prayer of Mother Angelica’s to the Virgin Mary. I love Mother Angelica, she’s a very down to earth spiritual teacher, and I could be wrong, but I’m fairly certain this is worship:

"O Mary, Virgin Most Powerful
and Mother of Mercy, Queen of Heaven
and Refuge of Sinners, I consecrate
myself to Your Immaculate Heart.

To you I give my body, my heart,
and my soul; to you I give my home,
My family, my country.
Aren’t those all things we should give TO JESUS??
I desire that everything in me,
everything around me,
belong to you.
Shouldn’t this all belong to JESUS??
To make this act of concecration
purposeful and lasting, I renew this
day the promises of my Baptism.

Finally, O Glorious Mother of God
and loving Mother of us all, I promise to
inspire in others in devotion to you,
so as to hasten through your Queenship
of your Immaculate Heart, the coming of
the Kindom of the Sacred Heart in my heart
and in the hearts of all. Amen."
-Mother Angelica

So, how bout it? Isn’t this worship? I also have doubts about the Catholic Mary:

•Matthew 1:24-25 - “And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.”
•Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
•Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
•Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
•John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
•Acts 1:14 - “These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”
•1 Cor. 9:4-5 - “Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”
•Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother.”

Help?

 

[coco2]

The Catholic interpretation of “brother” in the Bible is that it really means cousin or some other close relative. I wonder about this, as well.

I do think that sometimes people do walk a fine line between honoring as opposed to worshipping Mary. Would she want this? Doesn’t she want to lead us to Jesus?

 

[MrZetterlund]

The Catholic interpretation of “brother” in the Bible is that it really means cousin or some other close relative. I wonder about this, as well.

I do think that sometimes people do walk a fine line between honoring as opposed to worshipping Mary. Would she want this? Doesn’t she want to lead us to Jesus?

Thank you, coco2, for replying to my post. I have heard that, too. I have always wondered what the justification is for that interpritation of the word “brother.”

I am also uncomfortable with Mary being given the title “Refuge of Sinners” as that is yet another title that sounds like it rightfully belongs to Jesus instead of Mary.

 

[GEddie]

The Catholic interpretation of “brother” in the Bible is that it really means cousin or some other close relative. I wonder about this, as well.

It is possible that S. Joseph was an older man, and was married and widowed(?) before Mary, in which case, the “brothers” everybody gets hung up about would have been our LORD’s older half-brothers (actually step-brothers). The Church does not teach that S. Joseph was a perpetual virgin. The Apologist column did a Q&A on this.

Otherwise, yes, they might have been HIS cousins. Even in modern Spanish we have the term, “primo hermano” for 1st cousin; literally “cousin brother.” Spanish has a lot of Middle Eastern remnants from Muslim times.

I do think that sometimes people do walk a fine line between honoring as opposed to worshipping Mary. Would she want this? Doesn’t she want to lead us to Jesus?

I’d agree with you there. Take the belief “To Jesus through Mary.” This is taken by some to mean we should turn only to Mary to get HIS attention. Strangely, when anybody came to HIM in the Gospels HE did not direct them to her.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[Memorare777]

Jesus came as a mediator so that we had a path to the Father which was not present in OT times. Why, then, do Catholics make it so much harder to get to the Father by making us go through Mary to Jesus and then through Jesus to the Father?

Also, I understand that it is okay to ask for Mary to pray for us sometimes. But, why is the Catholic Church obsessed with her to the point that people are constantly praying to her over God and pray such things as, “I commend my spirit to you”, “I give my soul to you”, etc? Even in their deathbed they say such things, while the first martyr, Stephen, said “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”?

As much as I love Mary, my body, blood, and soul are not hers. I offer them to God alone.

 

[Barbkw]

“Mother” Angelica is speaking a prayer to the Mother of our Church. Spiritual Mother to spiritual mother and Woman to woman.

I know the prayer sounds “overboard” for Protestants.

It probably sounds overboard for a number of Catholics,

But, when many Catholics picture Jesus, they also mentally include the whole body of the Church. The Holy Family - Jesus, Joseph and Mary - the Angels, the Apostles, the Saints, the martyrs, etc. (also refered to as the Communion of Saints - a 2,000 year accumulation).

Mother Angelica’s spirituality is very much on that order. She prays to Jesus, to God the Father, to the Holy Spirit, but she also prays to Mary and to the Archangel Gabriel.

Catholics see Mary as the New Eve and God the Son as the New Adam. Our first parents at the beginning of the Old Covenant, Mary and Jesus at the beginning of the New Covenant.

The theological bookends to Salvation History.

 

[Barbkw]

I am also uncomfortable with Mary being given the title “Refuge of Sinners”

Many Catholics seek refuge as a “holding place” within the arms of their Spiritual Mother prior to their conversions and absolution with Jesus in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Rather like how children injury themselves and will run to their Mother for comfort from their fears.

And, I know it sounds as if we worship her. We honor her as Mother of God. There’s a huge difference.

 

[Bbigam]

I’ll let others deal with the theological debate on this one, but just one comment - that prayer is the Act of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. It’s not from Mother Angelica, she’s just one of many that prays it. In my parish, we pray it on Fridays after Mass - after the Novena to the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus.

 

[Barbkw]

To me, this prayer speaks back to Luke 2:35; Simeon foretells that both Jesus and Mary will share in the physical pain of a sword piercing both of their hearts.

 

[Memorare777]

To me, this prayer speaks back to Luke 2:35; Simeon foretells that both Jesus and Mary will share in the physical pain of a sword piercing both of their hearts.

The piercing of Mary’s soul occurred when her Son, Jesus, was crucified on the cross. The soul of any mother would be pierced at such a sight.

 

[MrZetterlund]

“Mother” Angelica is speaking a prayer to the Mother of our Church. Spiritual Mother to spiritual mother and Woman to woman.

I know the prayer sounds “overboard” for Protestants.

It probably sounds overboard for a number of Catholics,

But, when many Catholics picture Jesus, they also mentally include the whole body of the Church. The Holy Family - Jesus, Joseph and Mary - the Angels, the Apostles, the Saints, the martyrs, etc. (also refered to as the Communion of Saints - a 2,000 year accumulation).

Mother Angelica’s spirituality is very much on that order. She prays to Jesus, to God the Father, to the Holy Spirit, but she also prays to Mary and to the Archangel Gabriel.

Catholics see Mary as the New Eve and God the Son as the New Adam. Our first parents at the beginning of the Old Covenant, Mary and Jesus at the beginning of the New Covenant.

The theological bookends to Salvation History.

Well much of the first part of the prayer I’m ok with. “Queen of heaven” “Mother of God” “Mother of us all” maybe even devotion to further that Spiritual relationship.

However, red flags go up when I hear:

"Refuge of Sinners, (Which is Jesus, even to run to for comfort)
I consecrate
myself to Your Immaculate Heart.

To you I give my body, (Which should be given to God)
my heart, (Also to God)
and my soul; (GOD…) to you I give my home, (GOD!)
My family, (I Baptise FOR God) my country. (God’s.)

I desire that everything in me,
everything around me,
belong to you."

Shouldn’t we be talking about God here?

Also, I wish someone could provide a good source for the tradition that says those brothers were Joseph’s children, completely aside from his MARRIAGE to Mary! I have to admit, it’s rather sketchy to say St. Joseph married ANOTHER woman after his wife died!! If I would be devestated if my girl did that to ME! T_T Also, it seems very subjecting to mary your daughter to a widower and give her no good wife/husband relationship for the rest of her life!

Does anyone see my dilemma?

 

[Hadrianus]

Catholicism has a strong concept of holiness which people will possess in greater or lesser degrees in so far as they correspond with God’s will. The greater the holiness, ie sanctity of an individual, the more God will answer their requests. that is why we pray to the saints, because they are more worthy than we are.

Titles given to Mary refer to her intercessory power, not to worship. As the Mother of the Redeemer she is the greatest of saints, and when people talk of consecration to her they really mean to her prayers, and of course her will is identical to that of her Son’s.

This understanding of Mary’s role is very ancient and is found in prayers in the catacombs.

 

[mark_a]

Also, I wish someone could provide a good source for the tradition that says those brothers were Joseph’s children, completely aside from his MARRIAGE to Mary! I have to admit, it’s rather sketchy to say St. Joseph married ANOTHER woman after his wife died!!

A brief answer would be that Catholics tend to believe the “brothers” were cousins. Orthodox tend toward the brothers are Joseph’s from before his betrothal to Mary. We are free to believe either.

Does anyone see my dilemma?

Try this link. Its a very good audio source of Catholic teaching, done strictly from the bible, just the way Protestants like it!

biblechristiansociety.com/home.php

 

[Lancer]

Jesus came as a mediator so that we had a path to the Father which was not present in OT times. Why, then, do Catholics make it so much harder to get to the Father by making us go through Mary to Jesus and then through Jesus to the Father?

Also, I understand that it is okay to ask for Mary to pray for us sometimes. But,** why is the Catholic Church obsessed with her to the point that people are constantly praying to her over God and pray such things as, “I commend my spirit to you”, “I give my soul to you”, etc?** Even in their deathbed they say such things, while the first martyr, Stephen, said “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”?

As much as I love Mary, my body, blood, and soul are not hers. I offer them to God alone.

First…a couple of scriptures for your consideration:

Matthew 16: 19 (New King James Version)

19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and **whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” **

&
Luke 10: 16 (New King James Version)

16 He who hears you hears Me, he who** rejects you rejects Me**, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

Second…so…who should I follow re: Mary’s role in my personal devotions…the Church or my fallible senses…likes…dislikes? **[note: the Church does not require you to have a personal devotion to Mary…but you are bound by the Church’s dogmatic teachings re; Mary and the **Church’s liturgical actions re: Mary]

Third…Catechism straight scoop on Mary:

**I. MARY’S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH **

Wholly united with her Son . . .
964 Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”;504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:
Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her:** to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: “Woman, behold your son.”**505

**. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace **
967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)510 of the Church.

968** Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further**. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason** she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511 **

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the** Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513**
**"No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514 **

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971
​

** “All generations will call me blessed**”: **"The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.”**516 **The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517 **

​

Lastly, if you elect to not have a personal devotion to Mary…so be it…but if you diminish her role in salvation history, the work of salvation in present times and her role in the Church…you don’t understand your Catholic faith…it is that simple…check out the Catechism on Mary. Don’t let personal devotions slant what is official teaching on Mary…and how she is officially venerated in the Church’s liturgy.

Pax Christi**

 

[Memorare777]

Lancer,

I have no idea why you chose those Scriptures because they don’t make fit into the topic. If you are implying that the Catholic Church has authority, just settle down. I know Catholics have their verses they recite like parrots just like Protestants. Matthew 16, Luke 10, John 6, James 2, Revelation 12, and on and on. Protestants have John 3:16, Romans 2, Acts 16, and on and on.

Second, that attempt at a sentence baffles me. I can’t understand a thing of it. There is a thing called “comma”. Sentences…usually…use them…because…periods…like this…get annoying…

Third, you didn’t answer anything I asked.

 

[stuart12]

You also have elements within this prayer of pious exaggeration - which is not contrary to the true teaching. How many parents will refer to their children as their life, when it is God that sustains them in existence?

It’s a marvellous prayer, as salvation comes from Mary, the tree that bore the most glorious of fruit, Jesus Christ. As we didn’t receive the Saviour directly from the Father but through Mary, it is appropriate that we turn to Christ through her.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

It is likely that St. Joseph had a family before he married Mary. He was older, as he appears to have died before Jesus began his public ministry.

So, it is very likely that Jesus had older brothers, half brothers, just as I do.

 

[MrZetterlund]

You also have elements within this prayer of pious exaggeration - which is not contrary to the true teaching. How many parents will refer to their children as their life, when it is God that sustains them in existence?

It’s a marvellous prayer, as salvation comes from Mary, the tree that bore the most glorious of fruit, Jesus Christ. As we didn’t receive the Saviour directly from the Father but through Mary, it is appropriate that we turn to Christ through her.

Yes, I can ration with devotion to Mary, and honor to her, but if you give to Mary your life, your soul, your heart, your family and your country, then what is left for God? All those are God’s, anyway. Those don’t rightfully belong to any creature, that’s why God alone is worthy of worship…

 

[Memorare777]

Yes, I can ration with devotion to Mary, and honor to her, but if you give to Mary your life, your soul, your heart, your family and your country, then what is left for God? All those are God’s, anyway. Those don’t rightfully belong to any creature, that’s why God alone is worthy of worship…

Agreed.

 

[JSSebastianoP]

Also, I wish someone could provide a good source for the tradition that says those brothers were Joseph’s children, completely aside from his MARRIAGE to Mary! I have to admit, it’s rather sketchy to say St. Joseph married ANOTHER woman after his wife died!! If I would be devestated if my girl did that to ME! T_T Also, it seems very subjecting to mary your daughter to a widower and give her no good wife/husband relationship for the rest of her life!

Does anyone see my dilemma?

I don’t have a source here but I was just researching this point yesterday. Mary was probably a consecrated virgin who pledged herself to the LORD. However, upon reaching a certain age she could have become “ritually impure” and needed to marry someone who would respect her consecration - that person would be Joseph, a widower who already had a family of his own and would serve as a guardian for her.

Pax,

Sebastiano