Why Mother Angelica's Scaring Me Away:

[Crumpy]

Maybe 16 years ago, I happened to hear the strangest thing twice in about a month or so.

First, I happened to be in the Orlando FL area and found the church of Our Lady of the Universe (yup, that’s the title; some of you know that it’s THERE). Well, one of the intercessions at Mass was this:

Lord, we pray that mankind would develop more devotion for Mary, let us pray to the Lord. The 2500 seat church (minus me) responded, Lord, hear our prayer.

Second, I heard exactly the same thing a couple weeks later, on EWTN.

Well, I wrote to the pastor of the Florida church and mentioned what was said at his Mass and asked him to explain it. Why were they praying TO GOD for more devotion TO MARY?

He actually wrote me back but he could not give me an answer to the question. I didn’t bother to write to EWTN.

I’ve heard Mother Angelica say that the point of all the devotion to Mary is that she leads us to Jesus. Well, there you go! I was already THERE, worshipping Jesus. I don’t see why I need to pray to Mary to lead me to Jesus.

Some of my posts on this website are “pushy” and even offend some people, Well, here’s on of my push comments: Why do we need to pray to Mary – at all? If she is our Mother, why isn’t she praying ALREADY to Jesus FOR US? I really don’t understand that. If Mary is as good as people say she is, immaculate conception and all that, she should ALREADY be praying for us. No?

I don’t say this disrespectfully, I only ask the question, seeking the truth.

My alternate hypothesis is this, that women feel alienated praying to a God who presents himself in the Bible and revelation as male. I suspect they feel cheated, being left out of the maleness of God. Sure, nobody says this. On the other hand, prehaps men feel awkward at saying that they “love” Jesus and “love” God – it has a lot of homophobia about this, so they need a female divinity or the next-best-thing to focus their emotion on.

Mary is hardly ever pictorialized in art as the middle aged woman she was when Jesus was crucified, or later. No, she is pictured as this idealized beautiful teenager. Hmmmm, I wonder why? You’re going to tell me there’s no repressed sexuality embedded in this “devotion”?

And, the “virginity” of Mary? Well, I won’t touch that concept, is that it excessively focuses on an issue that is normally a distraction while I am saying the rosary.

 

[coco2]

Maybe 16 years ago, I happened to hear the strangest thing twice in about a month or so.

First, I happened to be in the Orlando FL area and found the church of Our Lady of the Universe (yup, that’s the title; some of you know that it’s THERE). Well, one of the intercessions at Mass was this:

Lord, we pray that mankind would develop more devotion for Mary, let us pray to the Lord. The 2500 seat church (minus me) responded, Lord, hear our prayer.

Second, I heard exactly the same thing a couple weeks later, on EWTN.

Well, I wrote to the pastor of the Florida church and mentioned what was said at his Mass and asked him to explain it. Why were they praying TO GOD for more devotion TO MARY?

He actually wrote me back but he could not give me an answer to the question. I didn’t bother to write to EWTN.

I’ve heard Mother Angelica say that the point of all the devotion to Mary is that she leads us to Jesus. Well, there you go! I was already THERE, worshipping Jesus. I don’t see why I need to pray to Mary to lead me to Jesus.

Some of my posts on this website are “pushy” and even offend some people, Well, here’s on of my push comments: Why do we need to pray to Mary – at all? If she is our Mother, why isn’t she praying ALREADY to Jesus FOR US? I really don’t understand that. If Mary is as good as people say she is, immaculate conception and all that, she should ALREADY be praying for us. No?

I don’t say this disrespectfully, I only ask the question, seeking the truth.

My alternate hypothesis is this, that women feel alienated praying to a God who presents himself in the Bible and revelation as male. I suspect they feel cheated, being left out of the maleness of God. Sure, nobody says this. On the other hand, prehaps men feel awkward at saying that they “love” Jesus and “love” God – it has a lot of homophobia about this, so they need a female divinity or the next-best-thing to focus their emotion on.

Mary is hardly ever pictorialized in art as the middle aged woman she was when Jesus was crucified, or later. No, she is pictured as this idealized beautiful teenager. Hmmmm, I wonder why? You’re going to tell me there’s no repressed sexuality embedded in this “devotion”?

And, the “virginity” of Mary? Well, I won’t touch that concept, is that it excessively focuses on an issue that is normally a distraction while I am saying the rosary.

What DID the priest say to you when he wrote back? That does seem like a strange petition, never heard that before. I have to say that as a woman, I don’t feel cheated at all about having God as my Father and Jesus as my Saviour, both males whom I love. I love Mary, as well. I never think of her as being able to save me, but perhaps to plead for me. Her desire would be and must be that everyone know and love her Son. She is already praying for us, but we know and have been told that it is God’s desire that we pray to god and for each other. Therefore, we ask Mary to pray for us. I’m sure she knows the type of prayer and what kinds of things we need better than we do.

As a mother, if I knew my son had a ministry of some kind, let’s say that maybe he saves people from dying by giving them a vaccination to some deadly plague, I’d be working as hard as I could to help lead the people who needed to get to my son for that vaccine before it was too late for them. Is this a strange analogy? Well, anyway, I think Mary just wants to lead us all to Jesus and is willing to go the extra mile ( Just as the Lord is!) to help us do just that.

 

[LilyM]

I’ve heard Mother Angelica say that the point of all the devotion to Mary is that she leads us to Jesus. Well, there you go! I was already THERE, worshipping Jesus. I don’t see why I need to pray to Mary to lead me to Jesus.

Some of my posts on this website are “pushy” and even offend some people, Well, here’s on of my push comments: Why do we need to pray to Mary – at all? If she is our Mother, why isn’t she praying ALREADY to Jesus FOR US? I really don’t understand that. If Mary is as good as people say she is, immaculate conception and all that, she should ALREADY be praying for us. No?

By that logic none of us should need to pray ever, fullstop. Not to Jesus nor to God the Father, for they are respectively our Saviour and Heavenly Father and surely, if THEY are as great as everyone says they are, all-loving, all-knowing and all that, we shouldn’t need to ask them for anything, nor tell them anything (in short we shouldn’t need to pray) ever.

They already know that we love and adore them, don’t they? They have already done, and are already doing everything in their power about our needs and wishes and our salvation, in fact they already knows all about them, don’t they? So why pray - why ask them for anything or tell them anything?

Think of it as being like your relationship with your spouse, friends and family. If they know you well enough, and you love them well enough, they will know it without you saying the words, giving presents on Valentine’s Day or whatnot. But you tell them and given them loving gifts anyway, don’t you? And they like to hear it anyway, don’t they?

I think we need to pray - to Mary as well as to Jesus and the Father - for our own sakes. It’s part of building the loving relationship with her that He commands - loving her as He does.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

coco2:

As a mother, if I knew my son had a ministry of some kind, let’s say that maybe he saves people from dying by giving them a vaccination to some deadly plague, I’d be working as hard as I could to help lead the people who needed to get to my son for that vaccine before it was too late for them. Is this a strange analogy? Well, anyway, I think Mary just wants to lead us all to Jesus and is willing to go the extra mile ( Just as the Lord is!) to help us do just that.

Very well put!

 

[inkaneer]

Maybe 16 years ago, I happened to hear the strangest thing twice in about a month or so.

First, I happened to be in the Orlando FL area and found the church of Our Lady of the Universe (yup, that’s the title; some of you know that it’s THERE). Well, one of the intercessions at Mass was this:

Lord, we pray that mankind would develop more devotion for Mary, let us pray to the Lord. The 2500 seat church (minus me) responded, Lord, hear our prayer.

Second, I heard exactly the same thing a couple weeks later, on EWTN.

Well, I wrote to the pastor of the Florida church and mentioned what was said at his Mass and asked him to explain it. Why were they praying TO GOD for more devotion TO MARY?

He actually wrote me back but he could not give me an answer to the question. I didn’t bother to write to EWTN.

I’ve heard Mother Angelica say that the point of all the devotion to Mary is that she leads us to Jesus. Well, there you go! I was already THERE, worshipping Jesus. I don’t see why I need to pray to Mary to lead me to Jesus.

Some of my posts on this website are “pushy” and even offend some people, Well, here’s on of my push comments: Why do we need to pray to Mary – at all? If she is our Mother, why isn’t she praying ALREADY to Jesus FOR US? I really don’t understand that. If Mary is as good as people say she is, immaculate conception and all that, she should ALREADY be praying for us. No?

I don’t say this disrespectfully, I only ask the question, seeking the truth.

My alternate hypothesis is this, that women feel alienated praying to a God who presents himself in the Bible and revelation as male. I suspect they feel cheated, being left out of the maleness of God. Sure, nobody says this. On the other hand, prehaps men feel awkward at saying that they “love” Jesus and “love” God – it has a lot of homophobia about this, so they need a female divinity or the next-best-thing to focus their emotion on.

Mary is hardly ever pictorialized in art as the middle aged woman she was when Jesus was crucified, or later. No, she is pictured as this idealized beautiful teenager. Hmmmm, I wonder why? You’re going to tell me there’s no repressed sexuality embedded in this “devotion”?

And, the “virginity” of Mary? Well, I won’t touch that concept, is that it excessively focuses on an issue that is normally a distraction while I am saying the rosary.

We have a saying around these parts that is used when a young man learns that his wife is pregnant for the first time. The saying is that it is time to “man up”. It means you now have responsibilities and it is time to be a husband, a parent and a real man. Seems to me that it is time that some of the people here who claim to be Catholic should either “Catholic up” or find another church that is more to your level of ignorance. By that I mean you better get better catechecized because you don’t know your faith like you would like to think you do and therefore you would fit in with a whole lot of protestants who are just as ignorant as you are. Take the above quote for an example. Why more devotion to Mary? Does she lead us to Jesus? Are we already at Jesus and don’t need Mary? All this Mary stuff, why is the church so hungup on Mary? Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that the Church is guided into the truth and what she teaches is without error?

Continued next post…

 

[inkaneer]

Continuing…

Seems to me you either do not believe that or you are ignorant of why the church teaches what she does. If the former then you are no Catholic and if the latter you need better catechisis. But why all this about Mary?

I wrote up something about Mary that was intended for rebutting protestant objectioins of why we do some of the things we do. It won’t address all of the issues above but it will address some or even most of them. It’s purpose is to show we do things for good reason and those reasons are biblical. So here is what I wrote about devotion to Mary:

"There are two incidents in the Gospels that seem insignificant or at most, nice little human interest stories that have no relationship to the gospel message. They seem to be little sidebars to the main storyline. The two incidents are the mother of James and John asking Jesus to allow her sons to sit on his right and left and the story of the wedding feast at Cana. Here are the passages:

“*35 And James and John, the sons of Zeb’edee, came forward to him, and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” 36 And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?” 37 And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.” 38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” 39 And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink; and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized; 40 but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.” *[Mark 10:37-40] [RSV]

Matthew’s gospel has the mother of James and John making the request. [See Mt 20:20-23] The wedding feast at Cana is recorded in John‘s Gospel:

*“1 On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; 2 Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples. 3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” *[John 2:1] [RSV]

Now what do these events have to do with the gospel? Apparently nothing other than in the first either the mother of two of the Apostles or the two apostles themselves make a rather selfish request whereas in the second a request is apparently made but it is not a selfish request. So is that it? On the surface it seems so. But I was intrigued by the first one. Who does sit at Jesus left and right? In recalling the creed I know it states that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. That is also stated in Mark 16:19:

“So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.” [Mark 16:19][RSV]

So if Jesus sits at the Father’s right then the Father sits at Jesus left. No wonder neither James nor John could sit there. But who sits at Jesus left? The obvious answer is the Holy Spirit. But I could not find anything in scripture that stated that. So the question of who sits at Jesus’ right went unanswered.

Continued next post…

 

[inkaneer]

Continuing…

Then there is the story of the wedding feast of Cana. Two things here I pondered. First, why is this in the scripture and second there seems to be parts of the conversation missing. The conversation as recorded by John is as follows: [NOTE: I added missing parts. They are in brackets}

Mary: * “They have no wine.” [Can you do something?]
Jesus: *“O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” *[but for
you I will.]
Mary: (to the servants) *“Do whatever he tells you.” *

Again a nice human interest story but so what? What does that have to do with the gospel message? Again outside of one request being selfishly and the other unselfishly there appears to be nothing.

Then one day while reading the Old Testament the old proverbial light bulb came on. The passage I was reading was :

“12 So Solomon sat upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was firmly established. 13 Then Adoni’jah the son of Haggith came to Bathshe’ba the mother of Solomon. And she said, “Do you come peaceably?” He said, “Peaceably.” 14 Then he said, “I have something to say to you.” She said, “Say on.” 15 He said, “You know that the kingdom was mine, and that all Israel fully expected me to reign; however the kingdom has turned about and become my brother’s, for it was his from the LORD. 16 And now I have one request to make of you; do not refuse me.” She said to him, “Say on.” 17 And he said, “Pray ask King Solomon–he will not refuse you–to give me Ab’ishag the Shu’nammite as my wife.” 18 Bathshe’ba said, “Very well; I will speak for you to the king.” 19 So Bathshe’ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni’jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. 20 Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.” [1 Kings 2:12-25] [RSV]

The part that intrigued me was verse 19 -20:

*“19So Bathshe’ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni’jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. 20 Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.” *

Here King Solomon, a king of the line of David has his mother sitting at his right hand. But there is something else. Solomon says to his mother that he would not refuse her request. When I looked elsewhere in the OT I found that the queen in the Davidic kingdom was not the king’s wife but rather the king’s mother. Suddenly a lot of things that protestants object to in Catholicism made sense. Mary sits at Jesus right hand just as Bathsheeba did with Solomon and the other Davidic queens did with their sons. Jesus is of the line of David and has a kingdom which is heaven. Therefore his mother, following the Davidic tradition is the queen of the kingdom and thus when Catholics call her Queen of Heaven it does have biblical support. Intercessary prayers and devotions to Mary make a lot of sense, especially if the requests of the queen [Mary] will not be refused by the king [Jesus].

 

[TrueLight]

I really do try to avoid the Marian threads, I really do, but they draw me. I’d rather focus on other things. Studying the bible, understanding the Mass, etc. However, as in the Godfather, you keep bringing me back.

I won’t even comment on Mother Angelica’s prayer except to say Lord have mercy.

But… I just wanted to respond to this post only because it lays out the points so clearly.

"Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" Luke 1:42

Amen and Amen!

"My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour; for he has regarded the lowliness of his handmaid". Luke 1:46-48

Thus says the Word of God.

For, behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me". Luke 1:48,49

Amen and Amen!

"Blessed art thou, O daughter, by the Lord the most high God, above all women upon earth". “For he has so magnified thy name this day, that thy praise shall not depart out of the mouth of men” “In every nation which shall hear thy name, the God of Israel shall be magnified on occasion of thee” “Thou art the glory of Jerusalem, thou art the joy of Israel, thou art the honor of our people”. Judith 13:23,25,31/15:10

I’m not familiar with the book of Judith, but who is being addressed here?

"Hear, O daughter, and see; turn your ear, for the King shall desire your beauty" PS 44:11,12

This is not addressed to Mary.

"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun. And the moon was under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars" Apoc 12:1

This can be open to interpretation as to who the woman is. She can be seen as the mother of humanity including eve. However to me this is the single greatest evidence of Mary as Queen of heaven.

"All glorious is the kings daughter as she enters; her raiment is threaded with spun gold" PS 44:14

Is this Psalms you’re quoting? How is this Mary?

"I am the mother of fair love, and of fear and of knowledge, and of holy hope." “In me all grace of the way and of truth, in me is all hope of life and virtue.” “come to me, all you that yearn for me, and be filled with my fruits” “You will remember me as sweeter than honey, better to have than the honeycomb”. Sirach 50:8,9/ 24:24,25,26,27

Isn’t this referring to Wisdom?

"So now, O children, listen to me; instruction and wisdom do not reject!" “Happy are those who keep my ways, watching daily at my gates.” “For he who finds me finds life, and wins favor from the Lord” Prov 8:32,33,34,35

So Wisdom is Mary now?

I just feel that in general, verses are stretched as much as possible to encompass Marian doctrine.

 

[qOcOp]

I just feel that in general, verses are stretched as much as possible to encompass Marian doctrine.

I’m sure you do my friend but this is your opinion and in order for it to hold any weight you would have to be able to give evidence of your teaching authority on the Sacred Scriptures. Since you cannot provide this then I must humbly look toward the source that can which is The Catholic Church. I know that you will of course say that the Bible is the sole point of authority on these matters however the Bible cannot interpret itself let alone give authority of its own authenticity or completeness since the Bible can’t even give me the list of books the make up the Bible. God in His infinite wisdom has clearly done this to show us the need for a Church since as we can see that in the end it all comes down to teaching authority. This is what Christ was referring to when he said;*** “And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.”—Matthew 18:17***

You see my friend in Christ, I believe the Bible is complete because God through the Holy Spirit guided the Church, His Holy Catholic Church in the formation of the Canon and it is this very Catholic Church that I look toward to teach me the Sacred Scriptures. They have the authority, and they have shown historically that all Christendom has relied on this authority. I mean without authority it’s just opinion vs. opinion and that doesn’t work for me because there is no truth in that belief. One person could say the scriptures mean this and another person can say the scriptures mean that and both of you can tell me the Holy Spirit guided you but who is right? See it’s all about authority, authority, authority, because if there was no authority both of you could be viewed as being equally correct however we know that can’t be true since both interpretations conflict with each other so what do I do? Well I look for authority and any evidence of it and since I haven’t found evidence of this authority from God existing anywhere except in the The Holy Catholic Church then I humbly submit myself to Her and Her Magisterium. I mean even your above reply clearly shows that you yourself know that you do not have the authority to make a definitive statement on what these verses mean or how they are suppose to be applied other than you dont feel like they are applied correctly but should I base my salvation on your feelings? Should you base your salvation and beleifs on your feelings because thats what your doing my friend. I can for one tell you that my feelings are not always right and something tells me that you would attest to the same so I think we can probably both agree that allowing our feelings to be our guide is not the most logical choice but then again thats just me.

Anyways I can tell you right now my friend that I have always had people asking me if I have a relationship with Jesus Christ and I have always told them yes but I must say it wasn’t until I submitted to His Holy Catholic Church did I have the fullness of Christ and a complete relationship with Him. I will pray that you will one day have the same and experience the same happiness and personal relationshiop with Christ that I do.

God bless friend.

 

[TrueLight]

I’m sure you do my friend but this is your opinion and in order for it to hold any weight you would have to be able to give evidence of your teaching authority on the Sacred Scriptures. Since you cannot provide this then I must humbly look toward the source that can which is The Catholic Church. I know that you will of course say that the Bible is the sole point of authority on these matters however the Bible cannot interpret itself let alone give authority of its own authenticity or completeness since the Bible can’t even give me the list of books the make up the Bible. God in His infinite wisdom has clearly done this to show us the need for a Church since as we can see that in the end it all comes down to teaching authority. This is what Christ was referring to when he said;*** “And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.”—Matthew 18:17***

You see my friend in Christ, I believe the Bible is complete because God through the Holy Spirit guided the Church, His Holy Catholic Church in the formation of the Canon and it is this very Catholic Church that I look toward to teach me the Sacred Scriptures. They have the authority, and they have shown historically that all Christendom has relied on this authority. I mean without authority it’s just opinion vs. opinion and that doesn’t work for me because there is no truth in that belief. One person could say the scriptures mean this and another person can say the scriptures mean that and both of you can tell me the Holy Spirit guided you but who is right? See it’s all about authority, authority, authority, because if there was no authority both of you could be viewed as being equally correct however we know that can’t be true since both interpretations conflict with each other so what do I do? Well I look for authority and any evidence of it and since I haven’t found evidence of this authority from God existing anywhere except in the The Holy Catholic Church then I humbly submit myself to Her and Her Magisterium. I mean even your above reply clearly shows that you yourself know that you do not have the authority to make a definitive statement on what these verses mean or how they are suppose to be applied other than you dont feel like they are applied correctly but should I base my salvation on your feelings? Should you base your salvation and beleifs on your feelings because thats what your doing my friend. I can for one tell you that my feelings are not always right and something tells me that you would attest to the same so I think we can probably both agree that allowing our feelings to be our guide is not the most logical choice but then again thats just me.

Anyways I can tell you right now my friend that I have always had people asking me if I have a relationship with Jesus Christ and I have always told them yes but I must say it wasn’t until I submitted to His Holy Catholic Church did I have the fullness of Christ and a complete relationship with Him. I will pray that you will one day have the same and experience the same happiness and personal relationshiop with Christ that I do.

God bless friend.

Excellent teaching.

 

[inkaneer]

Excellent teaching.

True light, Welcome home.

 

[TrueLight]

True light, Welcome home.

It’s strange, but a little comment like that is very touching, because you know, it’s not an easy journey.

Thanks.

 

[pablope]

I won’t even comment on Mother Angelica’s prayer except to say Lord have mercy.

But… I just wanted to respond to this post only because it lays out the points so clearly.

**However to me this is the single greatest evidence of Mary as Queen of heaven.

**

I just feel that in general, verses are stretched as much as possible to encompass Marian doctrine.

I really do try to avoid the Marian threads, I really do, but they draw me. I’d rather focus on other things. Studying the bible, understanding the Mass, etc. However, as in the Godfather, you keep bringing me back.

Hi, TL…I had to smile when I read this…I had read and listened to conversion stories on the Journey Home, and Mary is always one the issues before their full acceptance of the CC…and they, like you, always relate being pulled…I think there is an intercessor working double time….

Just keep trusting in the Lord, and keep steadfast and keep an open mind and accept the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the Lord’s will where he wants you God bless in your journey…

 

[Crumpy]

Continuing…

Seems to me you either do not believe that or you are ignorant of why the church teaches what she does. If the former then you are no Catholic and if the latter you need better catechisis. But why all this about Mary?

…

Well, I think there’s a third alternative that describes me. What hit me by the time I was in the eighth grade in Catholic school [1963] is that there didn’t seem to be an end to the “revelations” about Mary.

Scripture says just so much about Mary, and they should have explained to me a whole lot earlier that “every grace from God comes through Mary.” That is such a hard concept for me to understand, because it puts a limit on what God can do. God can’t do anything unless somehow Mary gets involved, etc. this is hard to understand, almost blasphemous.

What did somebody say, that King David had a mother who had a throne in his court? Yeah, well, did everything go through her? If her example is the “type” of how important Mary is, then “everything” should “go through” her, too? no?

If Mary is that important, then why was such an important concept left out of the Bible?

And, then people make so much of Mary’s “fiat.” “let it be done to me according to thy word.” Well, if Mary had said “no”, then would God have been symied? Would God’s salvation plan suddenly fallen apart? Would God have to go back to the drawing board to find another virgin to bear His son? Would God have to immaculately conceive another female to do His will?

Back to the eighth grade. I just felt so hollow, that I was hearing all these new (private) revelations about Mary. Is there an end to it? This apparition, that apparition, this message, that message, etc. Then, the third message of Fatima. so much controversy about that. It doesn’t seem so convincing about a prophetic message, if we don’t get it until after the events it supposedly told about. That sounds like “spin.” (One of the messages of Fatima was to pray for the conversion of Russia. Has Russia been converted? Not as I can tell. What about the Muslims? Don’t need to pray for their conversion? Fatima seems like a side-show to me. What about India? Africa? China? What? only one country per apparition? Sorry, it doesn’t make sense to me.)

Poorly catechized? Yes, that must be my problem. I keep trying to think about this rationally. Mary NEVER said the rosary. Mary never prayed to herself. If “all” graces come THROUGH Mary, then what? she gave graces to herself? See? this is illogical.

And, another general issue about all this, Mother Angelica’s consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary – all the St. Louis de Montfort stuff. Or, take the Sister Faustina revelations. All – examples of turning private revelations into general revelations. MY Catholic Church says that I am not bound to any private revelations of other people – maybe THEY are bound to their own private revelation, but I am not.

Didn’t Jesus condemn the Pharisees for putting burdens on people. Isn’t that what Mother Angelica is doing?

 

[TrueLight]

Hi, TL…I had to smile when I read this…I had read and listened to conversion stories on the Journey Home, and Mary is always one the issues before their full acceptance of the CC…and they, like you, always relate being pulled…I think there is an intercessor working double time….

Just keep trusting in the Lord, and keep steadfast and keep an open mind and accept the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the Lord’s will where he wants you God bless in your journey…

Thank you Pablope. Your posts have always been very helpful. Even when I disagree with some points, I do think about them later.

 

[coco2]

Well, I think there’s a third alternative that describes me. What hit me by the time I was in the eighth grade in Catholic school [1963] is that there didn’t seem to be an end to the “revelations” about Mary.

Scripture says just so much about Mary, and they should have explained to me a whole lot earlier that “every grace from God comes through Mary.” That is such a hard concept for me to understand, because it puts a limit on what God can do. God can’t do anything unless somehow Mary gets involved, etc. this is hard to understand, almost blasphemous.

What did somebody say, that King David had a mother who had a throne in his court? Yeah, well, did everything go through her? If her example is the “type” of how important Mary is, then “everything” should “go through” her, too? no?

If Mary is that important, then why was such an important concept left out of the Bible?

And, then people make so much of Mary’s “fiat.” “let it be done to me according to thy word.” Well, if Mary had said “no”, then would God have been symied? Would God’s salvation plan suddenly fallen apart? Would God have to go back to the drawing board to find another virgin to bear His son? Would God have to immaculately conceive another female to do His will?

Back to the eighth grade. I just felt so hollow, that I was hearing all these new (private) revelations about Mary. Is there an end to it? This apparition, that apparition, this message, that message, etc. Then, the third message of Fatima. so much controversy about that. It doesn’t seem so convincing about a prophetic message, if we don’t get it until after the events it supposedly told about. That sounds like “spin.” (One of the messages of Fatima was to pray for the conversion of Russia. Has Russia been converted? Not as I can tell. What about the Muslims? Don’t need to pray for their conversion? Fatima seems like a side-show to me. What about India? Africa? China? What? only one country per apparition? Sorry, it doesn’t make sense to me.)

Poorly catechized? Yes, that must be my problem. I keep trying to think about this rationally. Mary NEVER said the rosary. Mary never prayed to herself. If “all” graces come THROUGH Mary, then what? she gave graces to herself? See? this is illogical.

And, another general issue about all this, Mother Angelica’s consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary – all the St. Louis de Montfort stuff. Or, take the Sister Faustina revelations. All – examples of turning private revelations into general revelations. MY Catholic Church says that I am not bound to any private revelations of other people – maybe THEY are bound to their own private revelation, but I am not.

Didn’t Jesus condemn the Pharisees for putting burdens on people. Isn’t that what Mother Angelica is doing?

You ask some good questions. It cannot be possible that all graces come through Mary, although because she was deemed “Full of grace” in the Bible I do believe that maybe some graces can come through her. Unless Full of Grace means that all possible graces had been given to her and her alone, but scripture doesn’t really say that. I saw a list of all the apparitions ever reported and was shocked to see SO MANY from all over the place. Very few have been recognized as worthy of belief. The good news for you is that you do not have to believe in apparitions to be saved. Therefore, you don’t have to pray any devotions from any saint. Frankly, I am terrified to make a pledge of allegiance given to someone during an apparition. Who do you know for certain you are pledging to, if satan can disguise himself and trick others into believing things through signs. MANY saints who have had locutions have said that satan has tried to trick them into these things. I believe this is why the Orthodox Church says to turn away from any kind of voices or apparitions and walk away from them, because we can’t tell the difference.

 

[inkaneer]

Well, I think there’s a third alternative that describes me. What hit me by the time I was in the eighth grade in Catholic school [1963] is that there didn’t seem to be an end to the “revelations” about Mary.

Scripture says just so much about Mary, and they should have explained to me a whole lot earlier that “every grace from God comes through Mary.” That is such a hard concept for me to understand, because it puts a limit on what God can do. God can’t do anything unless somehow Mary gets involved, etc. this is hard to understand, almost blasphemous.

What is so hard about it? Understand that until Jesus died on the cross man did not have scantifying grace. Jesus united man to God so God’s grace could be shared by man. NOW, from whom did Jesus come? Mary? No Mary, No Jesus = No graces. Does this limit God? No, why? This was the way God planned it all. It is called the INCARNATION and the INCARNATION involves more than just “the word was made flesh and dwelt among us.” Mary was part of that INCARNATION and a crucial part indeed. For that was what God wanted.

What did somebody say, that King David had a mother who had a throne in his court? Yeah, well, did everything go through her? If her example is the “type” of how important Mary is, then “everything” should “go through” her, too? no?

If Mary is that important, then why was such an important concept left out of the Bible?

No not everything went up through the queen. You did not comprehend the correct idea. By the way another point, it wasn’t David mother that was queen it was David’s wife. David wasn’t king at the time. He was dead. David’s son, Solomon, was king. It was Solomon’s mother that was queen. No wonder you didn’t understand that every grace from God comes through Mary. One more thing, The Davidic kings had help in governing the Kingdom but it wasn’t the queen. They had a group of twelve men [one for each of the tribes] called stewards. One of these was named chief steward and had the power to act in the name of the king. This chief steward held the keys to the kingdom and scripture says that what he opened [unlocked] no one could shut [lock] and what he could shut [lock]no one could open [unlock]. Read about it in Isaiah 22:22. NOW, does that sound like anything Jesus did in the New Testament? He had 12 apostles, did He not? He named one of them Peter and gave him the keys to His kingdom did He not? Understand now???

Continued next post…

 

[inkaneer]

Continuing…

And, then people make so much of Mary’s “fiat.” “let it be done to me according to thy word.” Well, if Mary had said “no”, then would God have been symied? Would God’s salvation plan suddenly fallen apart? Would God have to go back to the drawing board to find another virgin to bear His son? Would God have to immaculately conceive another female to do His will?

I guess you don’t think God knew what Mary’s answer would be before hand. God is omniscient. He knows the future. God is not like some high school junior looking from a prom date. He knew what Mary would say before she was concieved and that is what she was concieved immaculately so God the Father could give His only begotten Son the very best human mother He could.

Back to the eighth grade. I just felt so hollow, that I was hearing all these new (private) revelations about Mary. Is there an end to it? This apparition, that apparition, this message, that message, etc. Then, the third message of Fatima. so much controversy about that. It doesn’t seem so convincing about a prophetic message, if we don’t get it until after the events it supposedly told about. That sounds like “spin.” (One of the messages of Fatima was to pray for the conversion of Russia. Has Russia been converted? Not as I can tell. What about the Muslims? Don’t need to pray for their conversion? Fatima seems like a side-show to me. What about India? Africa? China? What? only one country per apparition? Sorry, it doesn’t make sense to me.)

This may be a shock to you but Mary has appeared in Africa, Japan, Ireland, Mexico, France, Spain, Portugal and several other countries. In fact in Zeitun, Egypt her image was captured by TV cameras. Do a google search on ‘Marian apparitions’ for more. Only caution is that not all of these reported apparitions have been approved by the Church.
Crumpy;7723276:

Poorly catechized? Yes, that must be my problem. I keep trying to think about this rationally. Mary NEVER said the rosary. Mary never prayed to herself. If “all” graces come THROUGH Mary, then what? she gave graces to herself? See? this is illogical.

Why would Mary pray to herself when she could just say, “Son…” Remember this is intercessory prayer we are talking about. We are asking Mary to intercede for us with Jesus just as those OT people asked the mother of the king to intercede for them. Now knowing that wouldn’t it be kinda stupid for Mary to pray to herself? She still has to go to Jesus. Can you just go to Jesus? Sure. But scripture tells us that the prayers of the righteous availeth much and who is more righteous, you or Mary?

And, another general issue about all this, Mother Angelica’s consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary – all the St. Louis de Montfort stuff. Or, take the Sister Faustina revelations. All – examples of turning private revelations into general revelations. MY Catholic Church says that I am not bound to any private revelations of other people – maybe THEY are bound to their own private revelation, but I am not.

Correct. No one is binding you to anything with the exception of the Marian dogmas of the Virgin Birth, Immacuplate Conception and Assumption. You do not have to pray the rosary, divine mercy chaplet or believe in any private revelation stuff. You would undoubtedly be better off if you did.

Didn’t Jesus condemn the Pharisees for putting burdens on people. Isn’t that what Mother Angelica is doing?

No. Jesus criticized the Pharisees for making others obey them by laying burdens on them but they refused to obey and carry the same burdens. What Jesus did say about the Pharisees was this:

1 Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. 4 They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues,” [Matthew 23:1-6] [RSV]

Notice Jesus tells his followers that they must “… *practice and observe whatever they tell you,” * WHY? Jesus tells us why, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat;" What is Moses seat? Moses was known as the law giver and the idea of a seat of authority originally occupied by Moses was carried down to the Pharisees and scribes of the first century and Jesus acknowledges that authority resting in those same scribes and Pharisees. In the New Testament that authority would rest with Peter, the chief steward, and be passed down to his successors. Understand now???

 

[Crumpy]

Maybe some of you have those LIghthouse Media CD’s available in the vestibule of your church or parish center.

Well, I picked up this CD with the title “Giving God the Love We Should.” Strangely, the CD mostly has a discussion of the consecration to Mary by St. Louis de Montfort. I’ve already complained to LIghthouse Media about the misleading representation of the contents of the CD.

But, on the back of the CD jacket, it describes that the speakers, including Philadelphia Archbishop Justin Cardinal Rigali “show” how the most effective and beautiful way to Jesus is “through the imitation of His Mother.” (emphasis added)

Now, how do we imitate Mary. With one listening of the CD, I guessed I missed it. The CD is mostly about the consecration to Mary of St. Louis de Montfort. OK, so I’m confused.

My Bible quotes Mary as saying “My soul magnifies the LORD.” So, imitating Mary, I should magnify the LORD – not magnify Mary! That’s not what she says. She says, “the LORD.”

So, again, Mother Angelica scares me, because she is NOT telling me to do what Mary said.

As someone above agreed, Mary prayed to God, not to herself. So, too, I will pray to God, not to Mary. As the Cardinal says, imitate Mary. THAT and only THAT is the honor I feel is due to Mary, to imitate her, to magnify the LORD and to pray to God.

It’s altogether a different thread topic, perhaps. But, is consecration to Mary a sacrament, like Baptism? No. Is the consecration greater than Baptism or any sacrament? No.

We are to love God with our whole heart, whole soul, whole mind, and all our strength – as Jesus said. I don’t see any room for Mary in that, although others will tell me that Mary is exactly what it means to love God with our whole heart, etc.

It is notable, I think, that modern Jews have a day where they celebrate the receipt of revelation from God. In the spirit of that, I revel in the revelation of Jesus Christ and the New Testament (which biblically refers not to a group of writings, as Scot Hahn points out, but to the Eucharist). Later, the term New Testament was applied to the canonical writings of the gospels and later writers. And, hurray, Mary is there.

I’m impressed with how people are mentioned in scripture. You know, it may talk about a man, woman, or child. Then, there’s more emphasis in scripture when that man or woman or child is mentioned by name. [if they are bad, they’re usually very bad; but, if they’re good, they’re usually very good.] And, it seems that the greatest emphasis on any ordinary man, woman, or child in scripture is when they are mentioned by name AND they are quoted, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. So, Mary is “right up there” in being mentioned by name and by being quoted several times in the scripture. Mary is good and important.

Mary is “biblical.” Glory Hallelujah.

 

[qOcOp]

It’s strange, but a little comment like that is very touching, because you know, it’s not an easy journey.

Thanks.

Thats true and its because we have to look past ourselves and our comfort zones. This is part of our Passion that we accept to be in complete union with God so that we may die to ourselves and allow Christ to live in us.

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me"–Galatians 2:20

Welcome home my friend in Christ. It only gets better from here.